Planet Rugby Forum

Torquemada 1420 wrote:EIGHTH. Scotland about to be 4th. Would be interesting to speculate where Scotland would be under Noves and co. 40th?

Who should coach France Torq, who did you want appointed before Noves got the job?

Rugby2023 wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:EIGHTH. Scotland about to be 4th. Would be interesting to speculate where Scotland would be under Noves and co. 40th?

Who should coach France Torq, who did you want appointed before Noves got the job?

Anyone but him. He belongs to an older time and has little to nothing to do with current Rugby Union anymore. You even have to question he can be a leader of men anymore that motivates his troops when you look at the xv de France, their body language on the field and their lack of hunger. He's just...powerless now. He can only lose games and then make excuses for them because it would be impossible to look at himself and come flat out to the obvious realization he's become obsolete and harmless to any opponent. He can only hold a defensive stance now vs the media and critics, and make up excuses.

Who in his stead ? I reckon Azema and staff from Clermont would've been a nice fit, especially seeing how he knows the backbone of the xv de France so well. He would've known how to set up a defense right, good use of lineout and scrum, the 9-10-12-13 axis with good attacking shape, would've used Lopez well with his tactical kicking, etc.

Eddie Jones, if he somehow hadn't signed up just earlier for the Eng role and accepted the challenge...would've been absolute gold. Likewise Vern Cotter, knows the culture, the country, fluent in the local language...knows the Clermont players well also...heck I reckon even a Conor O'Shea...

France are in dire need - yes, in NEED - of adequate modern technicians, and de facto most probably exterior/foreign influence. The French coach today (Azema aside) belongs to an old, quaint-at-best mindset of Rugby of a decade ago. France are delayed in almost every aspect of Rugby relatively to the top nations atm, as if in a parallel world, and the first thing is very obviously the mere basic functioning of a cohesive team. France are not able to even exist at all on a fundamental level, as an int'l side.

Clermont's big ol' bull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-WsPBBxQg

Rugby2023 wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:EIGHTH. Scotland about to be 4th. Would be interesting to speculate where Scotland would be under Noves and co. 40th?

Who should coach France Torq, who did you want appointed before Noves got the job?

It was time for a foreign coach.

My issue with Noves was that it was 10 years too late. Noves was clearly locked in a bygone era which was proving catastrophic for Toulouse. A man on a mission to recover his reputation is not good ntl coach material.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Latest report card for Noves


If he were a schoolboy, he'd be making sure the dog ate it before his parents saw it.

PS Bernol not published its player ratings yet for the first time. Probably so bad for some they will be checking whether they can do zero.

Where are those tier 1 stats from? You beat Ireland and Argentina last year, Scotland and Wales at home in this year's Six Nations.

Who in his stead ? I reckon Azema and staff from Clermont would've been a nice fit

The two Laurents or the current Castres coach who took Oyonnax to the playoffs and the HEC are good options. If you went foreign it would probably be Quesada or Cotter who know the current French systems.

Michalak : "Les Français ? On aime râler, gratter les coins quand on fait des tours de terrain..."

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/barbarian ... tory.shtml

On the midol website Jeff Dubois finally talks about the difficulty players are having stepping up from boshball in the FLOP 14 to the quick intl game...

"ll faut que le jeu du championnat évolue pour que nos joueurs internationaux s’habituent de plus en plus à cette vitesse d’exécution." Et l’adjoint de Guy Novès ne se cache pas :"On a l’impression d’être dépassés."

No s**t Sherlock...


Same old same old.

As has been said for nearly a decade now the type of rugby played in clubs and the calendar are killing our intl side...

clementinfrance wrote:On the midol website Jeff Dubois finally talks about the difficulty players are having stepping up from boshball in the FLOP 14 to the quick intl game...

"ll faut que le jeu du championnat évolue pour que nos joueurs internationaux s’habituent de plus en plus à cette vitesse d’exécution." Et l’adjoint de Guy Novès ne se cache pas :"On a l’impression d’être dépassés."

No s**t Sherlock...


Same old same old.

As has been said for nearly a decade now the type of rugby played in clubs and the calendar are killing our intl side...

just that, ay ?

clementinfrance wrote:On the midol website Jeff Dubois finally talks about the difficulty players are having stepping up from boshball in the FLOP 14 to the quick intl game...

"ll faut que le jeu du championnat évolue pour que nos joueurs internationaux s’habituent de plus en plus à cette vitesse d’exécution." Et l’adjoint de Guy Novès ne se cache pas :"On a l’impression d’être dépassés."

No s**t Sherlock...


Same old same old.

As has been said for nearly a decade now the type of rugby played in clubs and the calendar are killing our intl side...

Priority should be in changing the format indeed.
That, in itself, is the biggest challenge facing French rugby.

And then, limit imported players.

clementinfrance wrote:On the midol website Jeff Dubois finally talks about the difficulty players are having stepping up from boshball in the FLOP 14 to the quick intl game...

"ll faut que le jeu du championnat évolue pour que nos joueurs internationaux s’habituent de plus en plus à cette vitesse d’exécution." Et l’adjoint de Guy Novès ne se cache pas :"On a l’impression d’être dépassés."

No s**t Sherlock...


Same old same old.

As has been said for nearly a decade now the type of rugby played in clubs and the calendar are killing our intl side...

Was Guy talking about T14 or himself?

Anyway

Trinh-Duc

L'ouvreur du XV de France, qui jouait très gros lors du deuxième test face à l'Afrique du Sud, a vécu un vrai cauchemar. C'est bien simple : il a presque tout raté. Hormis un bon lancement conduisant à l'essai de Spedding, peu de choses apparaissent dans la colonne "faits positifs". Par contre, dans celle des négatifs, il y a de quoi. Un jeu au pied d'occupation très moyen avec d'entrée des touches non trouvées. Ensuite des chandelles malvenues depuis ses propres 22m. Une défense très douteuse à la 11e, deux ballons perdus et en point d'orgue cette passe "ave maria" pour Spedding totalement ratée qui finit dans les bras de Kolisi, celui-ci ne se faisant pas prier pour aller aplatir entre les poteaux tricolores. Lopez absent, Plisson et Trinh-Duc décevants, le staff tricolore se gratte sérieusement la tête pour l'option n°2 à l'ouverture derrière le Clermontois.

François Trinh-Duc (2,5)
J'ai aimé : ...
Je n'ai pas aimé : L'ensemble de son match. Il a tout raté, à l'image de son jeu au pied et de cette passe "ave maria" pour Spedding qui finit en essai entre les poteaux de Kolisi.
Notre avis : Lopez n'a aucun souci à se faire au poste d'ouvreur.

and this could be from any of n tests from Tin-Duck........... and still he gets selected at FH.

15. Scott Spedding (4)

J'ai aimé : Son essai et sa passe dans le rythme sur celui de Penaud.
Je n'ai pas aimé : Ses habituelles courses en travers qui n'apportent rien. Pas inspiré aussi (8e), rate une pénalité à 45 mètres en bonne position (16e) et se fait pénaliser pour une ballon gardé au sol (29e)
Notre avis : Mi-figue, mi-raisin

Generous. As per comment on match thread, he covers more metres sideways than forwards. And he didn't make the try anyway.

9. Baptiste Serin (3,5)

J'ai aimé : ...
Je n'ai pas aimé : Sa lenteur et cette "volonté" de n'envoyer que du jeu à une passe, à l'image de cette séquence stérile à 5m de l'en-but sud-africain (50e). Sans oublier une pénalité vite jouée... et n'importe comment, le ballon finissant en touche (54e).
Notre avis : Probablement son plus mauvais match avec le XV de France.

Yup. Hard on Serin because he has made a lot of progress but he still just ships the ball on (see thread again) and too often gets Parra like. Decent backup but please let us see Dupont given a run to work out if he is up to the job.

He quoted Jeff Dubois.

La soule wrote:He quoted Jeff Dubois.

Was he talking about T14 or Guy?

17 games Noves has had in charge. Anyone want to claim that he can see any improvement over PSA?

Anyone?

Sadly got caught all afternoon and didn't get to watch the car crash, but from the reports...

- it's amazing how shit Picamoles has become since he signed back into the T14. Best league in the world, now players don't even have to play to become shit, just having a contract is enough!
- about 65% possession *and* territory and we manage such a score? That has to be a record. If those stats are true, then the team had to be doing something right.
- with his name on the list despite having never played a pro game and the capacity of every french 10 to attract attention not-in-a-good-way during internationals, Ntamack Junior will be on the bench for the 6N (I don't think Guy will dare the autumn internationals) and start at the world cup.
- i'm very much looking forward to the Boucherie's XV de France facebook wall.

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Sadly got caught all afternoon and didn't get to watch the car crash, but from the reports...

- it's amazing how shit Picamoles has become since he signed back into the T14. Best league in the world, now players don't even have to play to become shit, just having a contract is enough!
- about 65% possession *and* territory and we manage such a score? That has to be a record. If those stats are true, then the team had to be doing something right.
- with his name on the list despite having never played a pro game and the capacity of every french 10 to attract attention not-in-a-good-way during internationals, Ntamack Junior will be on the bench for the 6N (I don't think Guy will dare the autumn internationals) and start at the world cup.
- i'm very much looking forward to the Boucherie's XV de France facebook wall.

Ntamack jr was pretty awful in the games he played. Jalibert looked a lot more assured in bits we saw of him. Then, of course, they played Couilloud at FH for the last SA game (and he's a SH.....) and they were hammered.

Those possession v non conversions stats: Dork will remember but I think they may have been worse against Eng or Ita during the 6N. Maybe Wal too given 20 mins of scrums at the end.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Ntamack jr was pretty awful in the games he played.

Dude. Elite list.

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Ntamack jr was pretty awful in the games he played.

Dude. Elite list.

Nepotism.

He's still a kid so let's hope he improves. Reminds me of a young Michalak: has some moves but kicking game is hopeless.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Ntamack jr was pretty awful in the games he played.

Dude. Elite list.

Nepotism.

He's still a kid so let's hope he improves. Reminds me of a young Michalak: has some moves but kicking game is hopeless.

I wish him good luck and hope he's got enough brains to see past the bullshit... Famous name, nepotism, most exposed position in the team, far from a vintage era for the french XV, he's ticking every box for an even worse car crash than Bezy.

oh yes yes, Noves' France are quite simply an aberration of a Rugby team from a statistical pov...

What do you guys predict for Test 3 ? I'm going to go with a third defeat. I don't think as some will suggest SA will surrender under pretext they've won the series. It was never a hard fought, competitive series, and they'll in fact I predict relish the chance of putting yet another 40, maybe more this time on that poor France side now that they've won just a weeee bit of confidence back. They're young, hungry (l'appétit vient en mangeant...) and they'll want to run.

France will flail in all directions defensively and on attack like string-controlled marionettes, more or less hard - but for certain thoroughly randomly - and ehm well concede summore tries and fail to score a vast majority their own chances of them.

I NEEEEEEVERRRRR thought it possible after being subjected to that monumental ordeal back 3 years ago, but I reckon...I reckon this series might be even a worse display of Rugby over 3 tests than Australia June 2014. Which mere notion is simply mind-boggling. That tour was the Rugby equivalent of inescapable debilitating depression.

Dork Lard wrote:oh yes yes, Noves' France are quite simply an aberration of a Rugby team from a statistical pov...

What do you guys predict for Test 3 ? I'm going to go with a third defeat. I don't think as some will suggest SA will surrender under pretext they've won the series. It was never a hard fought, competitive series, and they'll in fact I predict relish the chance of putting yet another 40, maybe more this time on that poor France side now that they've won just a weeee bit of confidence back. They're young, hungry (l'appétit vient en mangeant...) and they'll want to run.

France will flail in all directions defensively and on attack like string-controlled marionettes, more or less hard - but for certain thoroughly randomly - and ehm well concede summore tries and fail to score a vast majority their own chances of them.

I NEEEEEEVERRRRR thought it possible after being subjected to that monumental ordeal back 3 years ago, but I reckon...I reckon this series might be even a worse display of Rugby over 3 tests than Australia June 2014. Which mere notion is simply mind-boggling. That tour was the Rugby equivalent of inescapable debilitating depression.

It has every chance of being worse. France clearly a rabble and lost interest whereas the Boks now have no pressure. We can hope the Boks get sloppy I guess.

Sexy couple of hookers right here. Did some good dirty work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhArbux8NL8

cela étant, le TOP 14 n'a pas empêché les argentins de courir comme des poulets sans tête en coupe du monde, et de mettre la misère à tout le monde .... alors quoi ?

jolindien wrote:cela étant, le TOP 14 n'a pas empêché les argentins de courir comme des poulets sans tête en coupe du monde, et de mettre la misère à tout le monde .... alors quoi ?

C'est franchement incompréhensible. Picamoles vient de faire une énorme saison en Angleterre, les rosbifs le badent et l'élisent meilleur joueur de la saison, il débarque en équipe de France et c'est un fantôme. On a l'impression que ces joueurs baissent de trois niveaux dès qu'ils enfilent le maillot bleu. C'est désespérant.

Dje28 wrote:

jolindien wrote:cela étant, le TOP 14 n'a pas empêché les argentins de courir comme des poulets sans tête en coupe du monde, et de mettre la misère à tout le monde .... alors quoi ?

C'est franchement incompréhensible. Picamoles vient de faire une énorme saison en Angleterre, les rosbifs le badent et l'élisent meilleur joueur de la saison, il débarque en équipe de France et c'est un fantôme. On a l'impression que ces joueurs baissent de trois niveaux dès qu'ils enfilent le maillot bleu. C'est désespérant.

ouais, et à mettre en perspective avec les rosbifs et assimilés qui performent en juin...

Je crois que quand on sent la fin des cours arriver, c'est dans notre sang, on est obligé de venir avec des cartes et un ballon de foot dans le sac plutot que ces conneries de bouqins et de cours à la con. Merde alors !

A people that created l'apéro can't also be a champion of rigor. The Germans will put together the most technically functional football team you've ever seen, but then when it's 3è mi-temps they've got the sense of humor of 12 year olds stuck at first level jokes.

France have always produced major talent, but have always had a really hard time tapping all the potential out of it. How many times has the xv de France lost to lesser England teams if you went by player for player ? It was always going to become a problem when Rugby tightened up and became a science of strategy and team cohesiveness; France survived off sheer talent for long enough, although they never captured the ultimate Grail of Rugby glory, and mind you they've had more talented teams than the '95 or 2007 Springboks for e.g.

Greatest back rower of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9W67xWWz9Q

Dork Lard wrote:Greatest back rower of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9W67xWWz9Q

You'll go onto ignore if you keep that up

Dork Lard wrote:A people that created l'apéro can't also be a champion of rigor. The Germans will put together the most technically functional football team you've ever seen, but then when it's 3è mi-temps they've got the sense of humor of 12 year olds stuck at first level jokes.

France have always produced major talent, but have always had a really hard time tapping all the potential out of it. How many times has the xv de France lost to lesser England teams if you went by player for player ? It was always going to become a problem when Rugby tightened up and became a science of strategy and team cohesiveness; France survived off sheer talent for long enough, although they never captured the ultimate Grail of Rugby glory, and mind you they've had more talented teams than the '95 or 2007 Springboks for e.g.

on fait quoi de france 98 et du hand cela dit ?

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:Greatest back rower of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9W67xWWz9Q

You'll go onto ignore if you keep that up

you wouldn't do that. I'm the only guy who makes sense on here, and you KNOW IT.

jolindien wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:A people that created l'apéro can't also be a champion of rigor. The Germans will put together the most technically functional football team you've ever seen, but then when it's 3è mi-temps they've got the sense of humor of 12 year olds stuck at first level jokes.

France have always produced major talent, but have always had a really hard time tapping all the potential out of it. How many times has the xv de France lost to lesser England teams if you went by player for player ? It was always going to become a problem when Rugby tightened up and became a science of strategy and team cohesiveness; France survived off sheer talent for long enough, although they never captured the ultimate Grail of Rugby glory, and mind you they've had more talented teams than the '95 or 2007 Springboks for e.g.

on fait quoi de france 98 et du hand cela dit ?

I don't know football enough and I don't know how things were in 98 in particular as far as coaching/strategy etc in that sport, but I reckon France won based on talent, lots and lots of talent ? Anyways, I KNOW I haven't seen a French soccer team play like the prime German teams, although I was very happy to see France beat Germany at the last Euro.

Handball is individual based, it's like basketball: talent wins championships. You won't get a whole lot of answers or deep lessons out of handball titles - although I'm very happy they're doing that well, personally.


But look jolindien it's too long to describe but Rugby has become so demanding on the collective level, it has nothing to do with Rugby of a decade ago.
Listen to this !: the other day I was just rewatching the Ireland France from 2007 (remember, V.Clerc scores at the end, dramatic win, that one) and being so accustomed visually to watching current Rugby every day every day all the time, you know what it felt like ? It felt like the field was enoooooormous, like the players were tiny small little figures on an ocean-sized field overwhelming with space, yaaaaards of green and length and width, and like the game was slowed down. Every try looked so easy to score, long stretching seconds for the passes to be made, players taking their time...I couldn't believe this was just 2007. I'd forgotten it was that bad.

Compared with today...there's NO space. Defenses cloggggg it all up. Players are bazooka-athletes and a team covers a field in a few seconds. A pass has no margin of maneuvering to be made. And every aspect of the game has become a super-mega concentrated, tighter version of what it used to be. It wouldn't be enough today to get back the Jauzion Servat Heymans Chabal and co., you'd NEED the right structured setup handcrafted by the best modern technicians anyways !

mwais... mbof... mais nan.

Handball is individual based,

A clown.

Dork Lard wrote:Michalak : "Les Français ? On aime râler, gratter les coins quand on fait des tours de terrain..."
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/barbarian ... tory.shtml

That's not all French, and that's also part of the usual French-bashing. Michalak was the WORST in that respect, lacking work ethics; on the other hand you have guys like Clerc ou Bouilhou who were in the same club and model professionals, coached by a model pro staff for years and years.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Yup. Hard on Serin because he has made a lot of progress but he still just ships the ball on (see thread again) and too often gets Parra like. Decent backup but please let us see Dupont given a run to work out if he is up to the job.

He f*cks up a done deal try after that long sequence in front of their line, throwing that ridiculous pass... I was fuming. We butchered several tries and gifted a couple to the Boks.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: 17 games Noves has had in charge. Anyone want to claim that he can see any improvement over PSA?

Anyone?

Yes me. I see strong improvement in game play and intentions, will to play on their feet and offload sometimes in a very ambitious way, and sharper running lines at the back in several games with nice moves.

Je repasse de moins en moins ici... Et je crois que j'ai de plus en plus de peine a avaler tout ce vomis deverse page après page.

Oui, les Francais sont poussifs. Ce n'est pas nouveau. Ca fait des annees que ca dure, et la tournee de Juin en particulier est le moment ou nous sommes a notre plus mauvais niveau.

Comment les Brits et les Irlandais maintiennent un certain niveau pour aller taper les Australiens, Argentins ou Maoris? Je ne sais pas. Sont-ils plus preserves physiquement comme semblent le dire les joueurs du Top14? C'est possible.

En tous cas, moi je pense qu'il faut regarder les tendances generales plutot que les matchs un par un. Et la tendance n'est pas enthousiasmante depuis 2007. Mais en meme temps, les matchs des 6N nous ont fait voir qu'on n'est pas si loin non plus de l'Angleterre ou de l'Irlande. Donc 8eme semble etre un rang merite, mais entre le 8eme et le 4eme, il n'y a pas un gouffre.

Je ne pense pas que Cotter, Jones, Torque, Dorlard ou un autre ferait une grande difference en tant que coach, mais peut-etre me trompe-je. On a eu 3 coachs depuis 2017, un qui etait inconnu dans ce role, et 2 qui ont quand meme un certain palmares (meme si PSA a merde a Toulon). J'ai de la peine a croire que ce n'est que leur nullite qui explique la situation de l'equipe de France.

Pour en revenir au probleme de joueurs crames, fatigues... Un truc m'interpelle quand meme... C'est que celui qui brille sur le dernier match, c'est le petit Penaud, qui n'a pas beaucoup joue cette annee. Il a du talent, c'est sur, mais est-ce qu'il n'avait pas plus de gaz que les autres?

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote: - it's amazing how shit Picamoles has become since he signed back into the T14. Best league in the world, now players don't even have to play to become shit, just having a contract is enough!

They were all complete sh*t in the first test, physically spent. Picamoles started the second test strongly and then got injured.

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote: - about 65% possession *and* territory and we manage such a score? That has to be a record. If those stats are true, then the team had to be doing something right.

There are plenty of things that went right, but the Boks upped their game and were better, more physical, and we gifted them 2 tries. And we have no FH, as usual, which does not help playing international rugby.

Dork Lard wrote: What do you guys predict for Test 3 ? I'm going to go with a third defeat. I don't think as some will suggest SA will surrender under pretext they've won the series. It was never a hard fought, competitive series, and they'll in fact I predict relish the chance of putting yet another 40, maybe more this time on that poor France side now that they've won just a weeee bit of confidence back. They're young, hungry (l'appétit vient en mangeant...) and they'll want to run.

I can't see us win the third test, this new young Bok team are much better than what everyone thought, their Lions franchise is one of the best in the SH. Moreover the staff is likely to give a run to everyone and we have no decent FH, we could be in for an even bigger hiding.

Australia 2014 was much worse than this, incomparable. The Boks are better but they benefit from our silly errors, we make them work really hard; in 2014 the Ozzies were just cruising through our defense line.

Dork Lard wrote:

TheFrog wrote: Danty didn't impress me when playing for France. I don't know how he does these days with Paris (I don't watch them). But his first French outing showed he needs to step up if he wants to become international material.

Because fkng Gael Fickou has impressed you once in his 30 caps with France ??

Here's Danty during his 4th cap with France for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFj5wc59uyQ

Man, you remind of a kid who feels diminished because one compliments his brother.

I just said that I did not believe, from the little I had seen of Danty, that he is international material. I haven't mentioned Fickou. But if you read my posts, you'd know that I am still not impressed by Fickou whose defensive skills are too weak for international rugby.

In short, I don't think Danty would change a lot in that back line. But again, I admit that I have seen little of him.

Dje28 wrote: C'est franchement incompréhensible. Picamoles vient de faire une énorme saison en Angleterre, les rosbifs le badent et l'élisent meilleur joueur de la saison, il débarque en équipe de France et c'est un fantôme. On a l'impression que ces joueurs baissent de trois niveaux dès qu'ils enfilent le maillot bleu. C'est désespérant.

Fin de saison, il doit être un peu émoussé. Ils étaient tous cuits pour le 1er test, des fantômes. Pica commence très bien à Durban puis se blesse rapidement.

Dork Lard wrote: Someone saying Danty hasn't been impressive is implying there's better in store. And Fickou is not better than Danty, not for club, country, on this planet or the next. You think Stade Français have had good coaching over the last couple years ???

At international level, yes. Not necessarily in France. (Though I would think of the pairing Lamerat-Fofana as a first choice for France, waiting for Penaud to mature nicely).

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Jake wrote:

TheFrog wrote:I thought Poirot looked good before his injury and was about to become an obvious choice as starting LHP. I hope he goes back to his best.

That front row could be our best front row going forward, injuries permitting.

Nah, Baille is a superb player- he's the only LH I've seen put Furlong on the rack big time.

Mind you- I'm of the view Slimani is going to be an all time great. I've never seen such a technically perfect tight head.

Poirot is a decent club pro who can be quick around the park. And that's his limit.

Baille, like Tolofua, Galan and Camara are happily being wasted/ruined by the ST fwds coaches.

When Poirot played for France, Baille wasn't yet on the front page of the news.

I agree that Baille has been impressive and is looking like France's first choice. But I remember Poirot, while not being as strong as Baille at scrum time, being more handy in the rucks and ball in hand.

That is what I liked about Poirot before his injury.