Re: Le top XIV la Pro D2 les Fédérales.Le retour façon mir l
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:44 pm
Juste une question: les fautes débiles, c'est de la faute des coaches? Les dégagements droit sur les défenseurs, les plaquages ratés?
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Laporte ? For a coach with that much int'l experience, he's about an avg headcoach. Helps when you've got an armada of world cup winners from all kinds of southern nations (...helps a lot !). I rate the two Laurent, they're good for French coaches but not great. Collazo is alright, but you can't deny the essential impact and leadership of all those veteran Oceanians on the team. Mignoni's good but hasn't been tested at even European level ! and Noves is the worst xv de France headcoach of all-time and surely the worst test coach in the world during those two years (both factually win/loss record, and in the Rugby played).TheFrog wrote:
Such bad faith... Laporte coaching Toulon to victory, the two Laurent, Collazo, Mignoni, Noves...
IT has not got much to do with France here, it's a peculiar moment in the sport history of a nation, we've seen this coming for a long time now and for a myriad of reasons the decline does not seem to be able to stop. In fact it's the others that have improved, not really us playing worse.Dork Lard wrote: It's not bad faith at all, look at the best teams in France: they ALL have or had a MAJOR int'l foreign influence. The olden days are over, now you need more than broad themes for a game plan, you need meticulous detailed instructions over every single phase and aspect of the game. Noves is prehistoric, or antiquity at best. Those other coaches are meh compared to the foreign elite, at best. France are just going to HAVE to swallow the pill. They're powerless without foreign influence. Harmless. They need to be much much less French, and much much more foreign-like. And the sooner they integrate that completely, the better !
Xupi wrote:Our backs play in general remains horrendous. Palis, Lamerat, Vakatawa have been very poor.
Ou defense in general has been terrible, we were torn apart. On a dry pitch the Irish would have past 5 tries on us I am convinced.
Our backrow, for once in a very long time, was excellent for an entire half. That was great to see. Iturria has been our best man on the pitch which also unprecedented in a decade or so for a French second row. That in itself is excellent news.
THISTeddy Thomas
le XV de France était profondément dépendant de ses exploits. Les coups de génie de l’ancien Biarrot ne suffisent pas à faire oublier la pauvreté technique des offensives tricolores.
Disagree. Whilst rugby is possibly more on an even keel then it ever has been (bar the ABs), that is down to the mediocrity of everyone other than the ABs. Go talk to Safas or Aussies about the state of their rugby.Xupi wrote:IT has not got much to do with France here, it's a peculiar moment in the sport history of a nation, we've seen this coming for a long time now and for a myriad of reasons the decline does not seem to be able to stop. In fact it's the others that have improved, not really us playing worse.
The argument is on Rugby Union, nothing but Rugby Union. Address that.Xupi wrote:In many other sports we remain a superb sorts nation, very successful in many ways, like we've always been.
Après la défaite de ces derniers en Ecosse ce dimanche (26-23), le technicien anglais s'est lâché sur Twitter: «C'est vraiment la pire équipe de France que j'ai vue en tant que joueur ou entraîneur. Ce que je ne peux pas comprendre, c'est qu'ils ont de si grands joueurs mais ils ne cessent de reculer.»
I agree: handball ( number 1 in the world), football ( good chance of winning the next world cup), cycling (traditional powerhouse), basketball ( probably not as good as Spain, the Balkans or Lithuania but still up there).Xupi wrote:IT has not got much to do with France here, it's a peculiar moment in the sport history of a nation, we've seen this coming for a long time now and for a myriad of reasons the decline does not seem to be able to stop. In fact it's the others that have improved, not really us playing worse.Dork Lard wrote: It's not bad faith at all, look at the best teams in France: they ALL have or had a MAJOR int'l foreign influence. The olden days are over, now you need more than broad themes for a game plan, you need meticulous detailed instructions over every single phase and aspect of the game. Noves is prehistoric, or antiquity at best. Those other coaches are meh compared to the foreign elite, at best. France are just going to HAVE to swallow the pill. They're powerless without foreign influence. Harmless. They need to be much much less French, and much much more foreign-like. And the sooner they integrate that completely, the better !
In many other sports we remain a superb sorts nation, very successful in many ways, like we've always been.
No, you're making it much bigger than that by linking our decline to the supposedly "atavic weaknesses" in our culture at large.Dork Lard wrote: The argument is on Rugby Union, nothing but Rugby Union. Address that.
We're excellent at handball, basketball, volley-ball, football. Rugby really has specificities, which are complex, which have sent the sport into the blackhole we are in.Dork Lard wrote: Now if you wish, onto other team sports: not really. France have tremendous potential at basketball and suck considering their talent/platform. They've got some superrrrrb players at football from what I know and haven't capitalized on it. They've been utterly brilliant at handball, but that's the exception to the rule, certainly not the rule, and handball is the sport that requires the least amount of strategy and collective structure out of all and is very talent-dominant. France also suck at Rugby league. What else ?
Whilst it may be true of SA (for sure) and Aus (maybe), the British and Irish nations in particular, but also Japan and the Pacific Islands, all play infinitely better rugby than what they used to.Torquemada 1420 wrote: Disagree. Whilst rugby is possibly more on an even keel then it ever has been (bar the ABs), that is down to the mediocrity of everyone other than the ABs. Go talk to Safas or Aussies about the state of their rugby.
Relatively and absolutely France are playing worse: the statistics do not tell lies.
For Ireland it's the Kiwi system. All controlled by the union. Then there has been the skills input by the Kiwi coaches last 10-15 years.Xupi wrote:Whilst it may be true of SA (for sure) and Aus (maybe), the British and Irish nations in particular, but also Japan and the Pacific Islands, all play infinitely better rugby than what they used to.Torquemada 1420 wrote: Disagree. Whilst rugby is possibly more on an even keel then it ever has been (bar the ABs), that is down to the mediocrity of everyone other than the ABs. Go talk to Safas or Aussies about the state of their rugby.
Relatively and absolutely France are playing worse: the statistics do not tell lies.
Basketball: no France are not excellent at basketball, they've been good in places but not regularly, at the European level they're nothing compared to the Eastern nations like Serbia or Lithuania despite money, infrastructure, talent, and openness to the world. Of late they made the 2000 Olympic final, and won the Eurobasket a few summers back. That's it..Xupi wrote:We're excellent at handball, basketball, volley-ball, football. Rugby really has specificities, which are complex, which have sent the sport into the blackhole we are in.
No, actually I'm saying France are by far the poorest nation coaching wise in the competitive Rugby world and have been for a very long time now.Xupi wrote:No, you're making it much bigger than that by linking our decline to the supposedly "atavic weaknesses" in our culture at large.Dork Lard wrote: The argument is on Rugby Union, nothing but Rugby Union. Address that.
the end of times... and irishman knowing about handball... what next ? a sober irishman ??!iarmhiman wrote:I agree: handball ( number 1 in the world), football ( good chance of winning the next world cup), cycling (traditional powerhouse), basketball ( probably not as good as Spain, the Balkans or Lithuania but still up there).Xupi wrote:IT has not got much to do with France here, it's a peculiar moment in the sport history of a nation, we've seen this coming for a long time now and for a myriad of reasons the decline does not seem to be able to stop. In fact it's the others that have improved, not really us playing worse.Dork Lard wrote: It's not bad faith at all, look at the best teams in France: they ALL have or had a MAJOR int'l foreign influence. The olden days are over, now you need more than broad themes for a game plan, you need meticulous detailed instructions over every single phase and aspect of the game. Noves is prehistoric, or antiquity at best. Those other coaches are meh compared to the foreign elite, at best. France are just going to HAVE to swallow the pill. They're powerless without foreign influence. Harmless. They need to be much much less French, and much much more foreign-like. And the sooner they integrate that completely, the better !
In many other sports we remain a superb sorts nation, very successful in many ways, like we've always been.
Bad news is (for you guys at least), we've wisened up and actually started to give a shieet about youth development in rugby, hence our recent improvement over the past 4/5 years in the U20 WC.Dork Lard wrote:Torque...
someone who doesn't follow Rugby but has some form of actual common sense who has a glance at France for the past 6 years and then a glance at England under E.Jones, would say: the first seem like they're not a team and don't know what they're doing, the second seem like they're incredibly well trained and know exactly what they're doing.
France have had more talent than England many times during the past few years (as well as, well, forever). Remember 2012, they were nothing on paper apart from Tuilagi, a rookie fukboi team of virgin twats coming into France's backyard with the 2011-RWC finalists Dusautoir Mas Rougerie Clerc crew... and they actually lost that, in Paris.
During that entire Lancaster period, England have been incredibly mediocre talent wise: Marler, Hartley, Dan Cole...Parling, Wood, Robshaw... Youngs, Farrell of that era, Barritt, Twelvetrees... and yet, they won like 80% of their games.
If you look at E.Jones' England vs Noves' France tactically, you'd say the first is the senior England and the second must be the U20 France team. It's impossible the two are in the same league.
Knob.englishchief wrote:Bad news is (for you guys at least), we've wisened up and actually started to give a shieet about youth development in rugby, hence our recent improvement over the past 4/5 years in the U20 WC.Dork Lard wrote:Torque...
someone who doesn't follow Rugby but has some form of actual common sense who has a glance at France for the past 6 years and then a glance at England under E.Jones, would say: the first seem like they're not a team and don't know what they're doing, the second seem like they're incredibly well trained and know exactly what they're doing.
France have had more talent than England many times during the past few years (as well as, well, forever). Remember 2012, they were nothing on paper apart from Tuilagi, a rookie fukboi team of virgin twats coming into France's backyard with the 2011-RWC finalists Dusautoir Mas Rougerie Clerc crew... and they actually lost that, in Paris.
During that entire Lancaster period, England have been incredibly mediocre talent wise: Marler, Hartley, Dan Cole...Parling, Wood, Robshaw... Youngs, Farrell of that era, Barritt, Twelvetrees... and yet, they won like 80% of their games.
If you look at E.Jones' England vs Noves' France tactically, you'd say the first is the senior England and the second must be the U20 France team. It's impossible the two are in the same league.
There are lots of promising young players coming through in England at the moment. We used to have the numbers, but not the quality. Now we have the quality due to better coaching being spread and more professional approaches. Believe me, within 5-6 years England will have an amazing back row.
Also, Rugby has boomed in popularity here after the 2003 WC win. The kids (or parents who pushed their kids in to playing) who started playing after that are hardly even 18 yet. The best is yet to come. This could have happened in France if it wasn't for a dodgy referee in 2011.
France and England should be the top 2 countries in Rugby, simply due to population and wealth. That probably will happen eventually, along with Argentina. South Africa maybe if they get more blacks playing.
Also, as a last thing, big thanks to you all for writing most of your stuff in English. Love reading your views on the games, and who you each blame for France's recent failures
Ah ça, il était beau le président... On aurait dit un petit vieux mourant.Clouseau wrote:Hé bé putain les gars, c'est pas jojo tout ça.
Pourtant même si cette équipe est merdique, je ne peux pas m'empêcher d'avoir de l'amour pour ces mecs sur le terrain. C'est mon côté gonzesse. Ça me fait chier pour des mecs comme Guirado qui donnent tout.
Mais quand il y a eu le gros plan sur notre président grimaçant en tribune officielle, sapé en survet comme un roumain…
Yes, I tend to agree. Ben Arous was just so out of sort, just like Vahaamahina last time against Ireland.rfurlong wrote:Just watched the match recording there .... Ben arous single handedly lost that game for France
Bauxis was a liability .... as was Serin when he came on
As for Vakatawa ..... he’s a complete joke and sums up Frances problems ..... a collection of individuals with no discernible attacking strategy
A win against Ireland last week would have been a ‘get out of jail’ moment .... today’s match was a ‘shoot yourself in the foot’ moment. That game was there for the winning....
rfurlong wrote:Just watched the match recording there .... Ben arous single handedly lost that game for France
Bauxis was a liability .... as was Serin when he came on
As for Vakatawa ..... he’s a complete joke and sums up Frances problems ..... a collection of individuals with no discernible attacking strategy
A win against Ireland last week would have been a ‘get out of jail’ moment .... today’s match was a ‘shoot yourself in the foot’ moment. That game was there for the winning....
Do you think we'll finally see the concession that playing a guy at intl level in a complex team sport when he wasn't even playing for a club is utterly brain damaged.Virimi Vakatawa : 2 / 10
On savait l'ailier en sursis avant cette rencontre car le staff avait envisagé de titulariser Benjamin Fall, auteur de bons entraînements à Marcoussis. Ce match n'aura pas rassuré l'encadrement tricolore, dont on s'étonne qu'il ait mis autant de temps à le remplacer (71e par Fall). Sa première période est cauchemardesque : il tente une relance suicidaire à un contre trois sans aucune vitesse (19e), manque de tranchant sur une belle attaque en première main (23e), tente un coup de pied par-dessus pour lui-même qui finit en touche (31e) et se fait pénaliser pour un mauvais soutien (35e). Il se fait arracher un ballon sur un temps fort des Bleus (57e). Sa place de titulaire est en danger.
We've discussed Thomas before: he is undoubtedly talented but has discipline issues with authority i.e. clearly a bit cocky. But you know what, it's actually refreshing to see a Fre player strut around like Liam Williams or Mike Brown and say "I know I'm good".Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Not that it'd have changed any fundamental issues, but really got the feeling that Palis cost the team that win. Poor game overall, some unfortunate kicking, and terrible decision-making when kicking that ball back to the Scots rather than boot it out, with the second Scottish try at the end of it. Momentum is a big thing and for the Scots to come back immediately after conceding a try shaped the rest of the game.
On the positives, how hot is Thomas right now? Haven't watched him much in T14 but sheesh, he's shown some pace and vision in those two games. Really hope he'll deal with it better than the last time, it's rather refreshing after years of Huget.
More than just individuals, the team lost its shape and composure.Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Not that it'd have changed any fundamental issues, but really got the feeling that Palis cost the team that win. Poor game overall, some unfortunate kicking, and terrible decision-making when kicking that ball back to the Scots rather than boot it out, with the second Scottish try at the end of it. Momentum is a big thing and for the Scots to come back immediately after conceding a try shaped the rest of the game.
On the positives, how hot is Thomas right now? Haven't watched him much in T14 but sheesh, he's shown some pace and vision in those two games. Really hope he'll deal with it better than the last time, it's rather refreshing after years of Huget.
10. Lionel Beauxis 4,5/10 : Lionel Beauxis était le sujet de toutes les attentes à Murrayfield. L'ouvreur a réalisé une prestation paradoxale. Dans un premier temps, il a multiplié les bons choix et a su trouver des failles dans la défense écossaise. Mais au fil des minutes, il a progressivement perdu le fil de la rencontre. Il n'a pas réussi à inverser la pression. Sa gestion a laissé place à l'improvisation, au point de le voir multiplier d'improbables chisteras. Sans oublier cet en-avant grossier sur le troisième rideau. Lionel Beauxis, très attendu, n'a pas tenu toutes ses promesses. Restera-t-il en place ? Le faible réservoir au poste le laisse penser.
It's funny how it feels like he's just out there playing rugby, not making a living through it. So yeah, that means ridiculously high-risk moves at times in games where you never want to see them, but he's pretty decent otherwise. He's pretty much on par with our other options at 10 imho so hopefully he gets a few more games. Think the last french 10 I really liked was Merceron. It's been a while...TheFrog wrote:Beauxis blew hot and cold with some howlers but some good passing at some time
Thomas has his tries for him, but it doesn't eclipse his questionable defence and the fact he tends to forget his teammates. The day he'll leave the field w/o scoring and after butchering a try opportunity or looking like a revolving door in defence, the public might no be that nice with him. But then try scorers benefit for some sort of immunity to w/e crap they can pull in other aspects of the game.Torquemada 1420 wrote:We've discussed Thomas before: he is undoubtedly talented but has discipline issues with authority i.e. clearly a bit cocky. But you know what, it's actually refreshing to see a Fre player strut around like Liam Williams or Mike Brown and say "I know I'm good".Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Not that it'd have changed any fundamental issues, but really got the feeling that Palis cost the team that win. Poor game overall, some unfortunate kicking, and terrible decision-making when kicking that ball back to the Scots rather than boot it out, with the second Scottish try at the end of it. Momentum is a big thing and for the Scots to come back immediately after conceding a try shaped the rest of the game.
On the positives, how hot is Thomas right now? Haven't watched him much in T14 but sheesh, he's shown some pace and vision in those two games. Really hope he'll deal with it better than the last time, it's rather refreshing after years of Huget.
Sapé comme un assistant coach qui passe le match sur le bord de touche. Pour un président de fédération, j'aurais pensé le voir avec les officiels et en costard plus haut dans la tribune.TheFrog wrote:Ah ça, il était beau le président... On aurait dit un petit vieux mourant.Clouseau wrote:Hé bé putain les gars, c'est pas jojo tout ça.
Pourtant même si cette équipe est merdique, je ne peux pas m'empêcher d'avoir de l'amour pour ces mecs sur le terrain. C'est mon côté gonzesse. Ça me fait chier pour des mecs comme Guirado qui donnent tout.
Mais quand il y a eu le gros plan sur notre président grimaçant en tribune officielle, sapé en survet comme un roumain…
c'est peut être un message subliminal vachement subtil, genre le vrai coach et le seul patron c'est moi..GDBFC99 wrote:Sapé comme un assistant coach qui passe le match sur le bord de touche. Pour un président de fédération, j'aurais pensé le voir avec les officiels et en costard plus haut dans la tribune.TheFrog wrote:Ah ça, il était beau le président... On aurait dit un petit vieux mourant.Clouseau wrote:Hé bé putain les gars, c'est pas jojo tout ça.
Pourtant même si cette équipe est merdique, je ne peux pas m'empêcher d'avoir de l'amour pour ces mecs sur le terrain. C'est mon côté gonzesse. Ça me fait chier pour des mecs comme Guirado qui donnent tout.
Mais quand il y a eu le gros plan sur notre président grimaçant en tribune officielle, sapé en survet comme un roumain…
C'est aussi ce que je me suis dit. Du genre "on m'accuse d'être bling bling et d'être un magouilleur avide de pognon, je vais me la jouer Guy Roux pour les prendre à contre-pied".panamax wrote: c'est peut être un message subliminal vachement subtil, genre le vrai coach et le seul patron c'est moi..
m'étonnerait pas de ce connard tiens
si ca continue ca s'arrêtera tout seul, personne en NZ ou en Australie ne lâchera du pognon pour assister à ce genre de rugby...Xupi wrote:C'est aussi ce que je me suis dit. Du genre "on m'accuse d'être bling bling et d'être un magouilleur avide de pognon, je vais me la jouer Guy Roux pour les prendre à contre-pied".panamax wrote: c'est peut être un message subliminal vachement subtil, genre le vrai coach et le seul patron c'est moi..
m'étonnerait pas de ce connard tiens
Putain, on perd tous nos matches c'est gonflant. Rien que l'idée qu'on va en tournée en NZ en Juin me rend malade, ça fait des années que je dis qu'il faut arrêter d'aller là-bas et en Australie, car on est risible et c'est bon pour personne. Si on veut progresser il faut de l'humilité et aller ferrailler avec Argentine, Japon, Géorgie, les Iliens, des équipes de notre niveau à peu près quoi.
Après la défaite en Ecosse, dimanche, les joueurs de l'équipe de France avaient obtenu une permission de sortie de la part de l'encadrement des Bleus. Une soirée qui s'est finie en bagarre avec des supporters écossais.
mieux vaut en rire...Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/6-nation ... tory.shtml
Après la défaite en Ecosse, dimanche, les joueurs de l'équipe de France avaient obtenu une permission de sortie de la part de l'encadrement des Bleus. Une soirée qui s'est finie en bagarre avec des supporters écossais.
Indeed. You can only look at net gain. The ABs are not afraid to pick poor defenders like Dagg, Savea or Fekitoa (even Cruden?) if they are significant contributors elsewhere. The best form of defence is attack. I'm not excusing poor or lazy defenders (Michalak) but putting some perspective.GDBFC99 wrote:Thomas has his tries for him, but it doesn't eclipse his questionable defence and the fact he tends to forget his teammates. The day he'll leave the field w/o scoring and after butchering a try opportunity or looking like a revolving door in defence, the public might no be that nice with him. But then try scorers benefit for some sort of immunity to w/e crap they can pull in other aspects of the game.Torquemada 1420 wrote:We've discussed Thomas before: he is undoubtedly talented but has discipline issues with authority i.e. clearly a bit cocky. But you know what, it's actually refreshing to see a Fre player strut around like Liam Williams or Mike Brown and say "I know I'm good".Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Not that it'd have changed any fundamental issues, but really got the feeling that Palis cost the team that win. Poor game overall, some unfortunate kicking, and terrible decision-making when kicking that ball back to the Scots rather than boot it out, with the second Scottish try at the end of it. Momentum is a big thing and for the Scots to come back immediately after conceding a try shaped the rest of the game.
On the positives, how hot is Thomas right now? Haven't watched him much in T14 but sheesh, he's shown some pace and vision in those two games. Really hope he'll deal with it better than the last time, it's rather refreshing after years of Huget.
This irritates me. Whenever you kick a ball away, you are subject to the bounce. That's why you should never let it bounce in defence........ a la Beauxis.Xupi wrote:Our back play has been extremely poor. Both tries are from 1/ an incredible solo move from Thomas, it's been a very very long while since I saw a French back go past 3 defenders like that and 2/ a lucky bounce and a very poor cover by the Scottish FB.
Jesuss.panamax wrote:mieux vaut en rire...Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/6-nation ... tory.shtml
Après la défaite en Ecosse, dimanche, les joueurs de l'équipe de France avaient obtenu une permission de sortie de la part de l'encadrement des Bleus. Une soirée qui s'est finie en bagarre avec des supporters écossais.
they are thick, like really really really thick...