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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Iturria is not selected for his breakdown ability, he is used as a lineout man and a link player. The question is why Camara for Lauret. May be because LaMoustache relied on Bastareaud to do the job.

Yes. I know. But the most important part of the game now is the breakdown and has been for some years. Lose that and you have little hope of winning the game.
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In the battle of the rucks, the main battle zone, there was no battle.

Iturria is next to invisible as a breakdown exponent so he becomes an expensive luxury.

Also agree on Camara/Lauret. On the match thread, I was asked what my Fre 15 would be and I commented that I would keep Lauret because he is a specialist fetcher. The big question is What TF anyone sees in Camara over Macalou who, incidentally, can do everything Iturria does as a flank, only a dozen times better.

Except that Macalou was suspended on January the 9th until january 29th. Difficult to ppick him whan the squad was announced on january 15th....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:50 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
Nick Mallet anyone?

Good coach, but he has been out of the game for a while now.

Cotter seems like a good fit. He achieved quite a bit with Scotland imo.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Iturria is not selected for his breakdown ability, he is used as a lineout man and a link player. The question is why Camara for Lauret. May be because LaMoustache relied on Bastareaud to do the job.

Yes. I know. But the most important part of the game now is the breakdown and has been for some years. Lose that and you have little hope of winning the game.
Quote:
In the battle of the rucks, the main battle zone, there was no battle.

Iturria is next to invisible as a breakdown exponent so he becomes an expensive luxury.

Also agree on Camara/Lauret. On the match thread, I was asked what my Fre 15 would be and I commented that I would keep Lauret because he is a specialist fetcher. The big question is What TF anyone sees in Camara over Macalou who, incidentally, can do everything Iturria does as a flank, only a dozen times better.


There must be a reason Macalou is so far in the pecking order. I haven't watched enough of him to answer that question.

Yesterday Camara was even more anonymous than Iturria who at least made his tackles and couple breaks.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
julian wrote:
Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
On a tangent, how fcuking amazing is Lawes tackling? Reminds me a lot of Chabal in having both a big athletic frame and such good technique. I'm glad I'm not the one fielded on the pitch to run at him. :lol:

France has had many much better by several miles centres than Bastareaud and Lawes tackle had nothing special, Pumas made several big hits on Bastareaud in the past and never received much press, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtT2OqZfwJk

As much as I love the french team (an inspiration for Argentina for decades) what I see is that the old french proud has been replaced by insipid foreign players.

France must return to its origins, strong characters on the pitch.


What do you meanby insipid foreign players ? In Top 14 ? I for one, was happy to see Albacete, Ledesma, Hernandez, Fernandez Lobbe, Imhoff, Dominguez and so many others play in it....

Mais non!, I was referring to the french national team full of bloodless players (some foreign).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Nick Mallet anyone?

Good coach, but he has been out of the game for a while now.

Cotter seems like a good fit. He achieved quite a bit with Scotland imo.


That was a bit ironic given that his spell in France did not go so well.

Joe Schmidt had a good spell at Clermont, working with Vern Cotter. He is the one I'd like France to seduce.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:03 pm 
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julian wrote:
Petrus wrote:
julian wrote:
Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
On a tangent, how fcuking amazing is Lawes tackling? Reminds me a lot of Chabal in having both a big athletic frame and such good technique. I'm glad I'm not the one fielded on the pitch to run at him. :lol:

France has had many much better by several miles centres than Bastareaud and Lawes tackle had nothing special, Pumas made several big hits on Bastareaud in the past and never received much press, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtT2OqZfwJk

As much as I love the french team (an inspiration for Argentina for decades) what I see is that the old french proud has been replaced by insipid foreign players.

France must return to its origins, strong characters on the pitch.


What do you meanby insipid foreign players ? In Top 14 ? I for one, was happy to see Albacete, Ledesma, Hernandez, Fernandez Lobbe, Imhoff, Dominguez and so many others play in it....

Mais non!, I was referring to the french national team full of bloodless players (some foreign).


Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:10 pm 
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petrus wrote:

Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?

Atonio, didn't play this weekend
Bamba
Huget


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
Ok. Can you tell me which players in the Under 20 french team of the last 10 years did not have any chance to show how good they were in Top 14 or Pro D 2 (means playing less than 40 games) ? Maybe they were not good enough or paid too much at a young age because they were JIFF and not realy hungry enough ? How can you explain that so many georgian props are good enough to play in french pro rugby and no french ? They are hungry, very hungry.

Just to give you an idea , the french team who won the under 21 world cup in 2006 :
Thomas Domingo, Yohan Montès, Laurent Cabarry, Florian Cazalot, Damien Weber
Talonneur Guilhem Guirado, Arnaud Héguy, Laurent Sempéré
Deuxième ligne Denys Drozdz, Loïc Jacquet, Julien Le Devedec
Troisième ligne aile Fulgence Ouedraogo, Steve Malonga, Fabien Alexandre, Nicolas Bontinck
Troisième ligne centre Damien Chouly, Aurélien Béco
Arrières Demi de mêlée Fabien Cibray, Christophe Clarac, Sébastien Tillous-Borde, Julien Tomas
Demi d'ouverture Lionel Beauxis, Camille Fourt Arteaga
Centre Thierry Brana, Thibault Lacroix, Maxime Mermoz, Arnaud Mignardi, Grégory Puyo
Ailier Matthieu Bourret, Jacques Boussuge, Florian Denos, Yann Fior
Arrière Maxime Médard


Never given a chance ? And how many great players ?


I have always been interested in the U19/20/21s and my perception is that (by way of example) more players go on to senior team level from Fra's juniors than do from Eng's. I can't be sure whether Eng players are coming through the ranks (and so don't have a pro contract already) whereas Fre ones tend to already be signed to a club.

My take is that they are given T14 exposure but they are never developed properly.... because of all the things this thread discusses. Occasionally you'll get a freak player who transcends and succeeds despite the T14 and not because of it. I reckon Dupont could do that. Bonnaire, Nyanga, Mas, Clerc, de Villiers, Marconnet, Slimani (for a while), Jauzion, Nallet, Pape might have done but for injury, Baby would have but was killed by injury.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:14 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
There must be a reason Macalou is so far in the pecking order. I haven't watched enough of him to answer that question.

Yes.

There is a reason the selectors think Parra and Serin :lol: are better than Dupont too. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:29 pm 
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lexpat wrote:
petrus wrote:

Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?

Atonio, didn't play this weekend
Bamba
Huget


Where did Bamba and Huget played rugby before playing in France ? I did not know that Saint Denis and Pamiers were not in France. That is the place where they were born and start playing....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:31 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
lexpat wrote:
petrus wrote:

Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?

Atonio, didn't play this weekend
Bamba
Huget


Where did Bamba and Huget played rugby before playing in France ? I did not know that Saint Denis and Pamiers were not in France. That is the place where they were born and start playing....

Pamiers is in Mexico :P


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Laurent wrote:
Petrus wrote:
lexpat wrote:
petrus wrote:

Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?

Atonio, didn't play this weekend
Bamba
Huget


Where did Bamba and Huget played rugby before playing in France ? I did not know that Saint Denis and Pamiers were not in France. That is the place where they were born and start playing....

Pamiers is in Mexico :P


I dont come often enough on this forum.I learn a lot....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:47 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
There must be a reason Macalou is so far in the pecking order. I haven't watched enough of him to answer that question.

Yes.

There is a reason the selectors think Parra and Serin :lol: are better than Dupont too. :D


The same reason that some posters on this forum thought that Bezy was a great player in the making probably...Nobody is perfect...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:47 pm 
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What is our depth on the wing? Is there a reason why LaMoustache selected two centers in this position?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:49 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
What is our depth on the wing?


Thomas is injured.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
What is our depth on the wing?


Thomas is injured.


:lol:

:(


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:59 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
What is our depth on the wing?


Thomas is injured.


:lol:

:(


That does not answer the question. And by the way, i dont follow that every week, it looks tlike Penaud plays sometimes on the wing for Clermont... After checking, 8 games on 12 starts in Top 14 this season...So I suppose that if he had been picked in the center, everybody would complain about him being picked out of position.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
What is our depth on the wing?


Thomas is injured.


:lol:

:(


That does not answer the question. And by the way, i dont follow that every week, it looks tlike Penaud plays sometimes on the wing for Clermont... After checking, 8 games on 12 starts in Top 14 this season...So I suppose that if he had been picked in the center, everybody would complain about him being picked out of position.


Penaud has been moved to the wing (like Iturria to flanker) at the request of the French staff. Azema cooperates with the French team


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:07 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
There must be a reason Macalou is so far in the pecking order. I haven't watched enough of him to answer that question.

Yes.

There is a reason the selectors think Parra and Serin :lol: are better than Dupont too. :D


The same reason that some posters on this forum thought that Bezy was a great player in the making probably...Nobody is perfect...

And Doussain ! Let's not forget Doussain.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Laurent wrote:
Petrus wrote:
lexpat wrote:
petrus wrote:

Apart Willemse, which are foreign born and play rugby elsewhere ?

Atonio, didn't play this weekend
Bamba
Huget


Where did Bamba and Huget played rugby before playing in France ? I did not know that Saint Denis and Pamiers were not in France. That is the place where they were born and start playing....

Pamiers is in Mexico :P

Apologies for Bamba, I really thought he was born in Mauritania,his parents were, saint Denis is correct , even though when you see what's happen there you wonder.
As Laurent said huget is a Mexican ....for us.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:11 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
Petrus wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
What is our depth on the wing?


Thomas is injured.


:lol:

:(


That does not answer the question. And by the way, i dont follow that every week, it looks tlike Penaud plays sometimes on the wing for Clermont... After checking, 8 games on 12 starts in Top 14 this season...So I suppose that if he had been picked in the center, everybody would complain about him being picked out of position.


Penaud has been moved to the wing (like Iturria to flanker) at the request of the French staff. Azema cooperates with the French team


And so, who are the fantastic french wings that Brunel the idiot do not want to pick ?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Petrus wrote:
And so, who are the fantastic french wings that Brunel the idiot do not want to pick ?

It's pretty scarce… There's Grosso but not a great fan. A "bon porteur de ballon" as we used to say. When he manages to hang on to it.

Back three really is a problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Petrus wrote:

And so, who are the fantastic french wings that Brunel the idiot do not want to pick ?


That is precisely my point. There is much crowing about Brunel relying on two centers to play on the wing, and a winger to play fullback, but I am not sure he has a million choices.

I think he feared starting Ramos at 15 and was hoping Huget experience would be a safer option.

And then on the wing... It is a big desert in France... Look at the French selections on the wing over the last years... It shows... We bet on a few Fijians, but Nakaitaci hasn't really recovered from last World Cup humiliation. Wakatawa has moved to center (where he plays well these days) and Raka who is French now was injured. Thomas is the other winger name that springs to mind, and I am not convinced he is very safe under the high ball, or defensively...

So... I really don't think it is just about Brunel being clueless. Much like Noves was supposed to be clueless before that.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:02 pm 
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For the French on here, here is a list of the back 3 players selected there over the last 4 years:

Benjamin Fall
Yoan Huget
Wesley Fofana
Brice Dulin
Gael Fickou
Hugo Bonneval
Scott Spedding
Teddy Thomas
Noa Nakaitaci
Remy Grosso
Virimi Vakatawa
Djibril Camara
Xavier Mignot
Damian Penaud
Nans Ducuing
Gabriel Lacroix
Geoffrey Palis

So quite a lot of players have been tested. Not sure which one stood out as world class.

What on earth happened to Lacroix by the way? He was the next big thing (excuse the pun) and seemed to have disappeared from the radars.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:10 pm 
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Torque, you will love this!!

https://video.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/xv-de-france/2018-2019/xv-de-france-pourquoi-ne-pas-associer-parra-et-dupont_vid1162821/video.shtml

Dupont at 10, Parra at 9 :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 pm 
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And for French Fan, another man who calls to be cautious about the Dupont miracle while acknowledging the boy did weel:
https://video.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/6-nations/2019/6-nations-dupont-il-a-cette-faculte-a-casser-les-plaquages-a-jouer-ses-duels-et-les-gagner_vid1162809/video.shtml


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm 
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TheFrog wrote:
For the French on here, here is a list of the back 3 players selected there over the last 4 years:

Benjamin Fall
Yoan Huget
Wesley Fofana
Brice Dulin
Gael Fickou
Hugo Bonneval
Scott Spedding
Teddy Thomas
Noa Nakaitaci
Remy Grosso
Virimi Vakatawa
Djibril Camara
Xavier Mignot
Damian Penaud
Nans Ducuing
Gabriel Lacroix
Geoffrey Palis

So quite a lot of players have been tested. Not sure which one stood out as world class.

What on earth happened to Lacroix by the way? He was the next big thing (excuse the pun) and seemed to have disappeared from the radars.

just back got broken in Test match


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:00 pm 
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Hi all,

Been a while, etc...

Let's not underestimate the outstanding level of this current England team. We were all baffled by what they achieved vs the Irish in Dublin, we were of course going to get minced. They did it with so much ruthless precision and skill and speed, it was incredible to see.

There is nothing new under the sun, we're just at the same level we have been for the past decade more or less.

I love the new Stade Toulousain and our crop of young players, they're a joy to watch and they're bloody good. But they are over-estimated. Guys like Ramos, N'Tamack, Aldegheri, to name a few, are not international material and I don't see them ever being top-level players on the world scene.

We are appalling at kicking the damn ball and at catching it in the air, we've always been to be honest, but now that other nations actually work a lot in that respect, we've become miserable under high balls and in the kicking game play.

The poor state of our rugby was symbolized by Parra/Dupont aimlessly kicking the ball from the back of their ruck without even seeing the field, while Farrell was facing the field and calmly placing the ball wherever he wanted, without any defensive pressure. Incredible contrast, that was.

On this, I wish you a pleasant evening !

Xup


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:20 am 
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Xupi wrote:
Hi all,

Been a while, etc...

Let's not underestimate the outstanding level of this current England team. We were all baffled by what they achieved vs the Irish in Dublin, we were of course going to get minced. They did it with so much ruthless precision and skill and speed, it was incredible to see.

There is nothing new under the sun, we're just at the same level we have been for the past decade more or less.

I love the new Stade Toulousain and our crop of young players, they're a joy to watch and they're bloody good. But they are over-estimated. Guys like Ramos, N'Tamack, Aldegheri, to name a few, are not international material and I don't see them ever being top-level players on the world scene.

We are appalling at kicking the damn ball and at catching it in the air, we've always been to be honest, but now that other nations actually work a lot in that respect, we've become miserable under high balls and in the kicking game play.

The poor state of our rugby was symbolized by Parra/Dupont aimlessly kicking the ball from the back of their ruck without even seeing the field, while Farrell was facing the field and calmly placing the ball wherever he wanted, without any defensive pressure. Incredible contrast, that was.

On this, I wish you a pleasant evening !

Xup


Farell was playing very far from the advantage line and that gave him plenty of time.

The French relied on their scrum-halves to clear, and they were under pressure from the defense.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:24 am 
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Talking about players out of position : Elliott Daly has played only two games this season as a full back with Wasps, and 13 either at centre or on the wing. Strangley, nobody criticize Eddie Jones for his choice. When you win, you are always right !


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:36 am 
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Another excption to the rule who says : top 14 coaches do not give their chance to young players and prefer to take the safe option by picking a southern hemsiphere player. There is at least one young player (20 years old) who has never played top level rugby before september 2018, do not come from french academies, but has been the automatic choice as loose head prop in a top french club. And nobody had heard about him six months ago. When you are good enough, you are old enough. Easy to find his name.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:08 am 
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We are going to work hard not to finish at the bottom. In the short term, we need characters with a wining mentality, in the Babillot mould.

Give a chance to the young guys should be the modus operandi now.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:11 am 
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Une Assemblée générale exceptionnelle est plus que nécessaire...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:18 am 
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Laurent wrote:
Une Assemblée générale exceptionnelle est plus que nécessaire...


On invite qui?

Je ne m'assois pas à la même table que Laporte, je te previens.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 am 
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La soule wrote:
Laurent wrote:
Une Assemblée générale exceptionnelle est plus que nécessaire...


On invite qui?

Je ne m'assois pas à la même table que Laporte, je te previens.

Pourquoi inviter les escrocs ?

Le but c'est de faire place nette.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:51 am 
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Petrus wrote:
Another excption to the rule who says : top 14 coaches do not give their chance to young players and prefer to take the safe option by picking a southern hemsiphere player. There is at least one young player (20 years old) who has never played top level rugby before september 2018, do not come from french academies, but has been the automatic choice as loose head prop in a top french club. And nobody had heard about him six months ago. When you are good enough, you are old enough. Easy to find his name.
Youngsters do get their chances more and more in the T14, just look at Stade Toulousain. The quota policy, which I had advocated for a decade, is finally bringing its fruits. At least we have more French names and faces in our clubs, and I hope it continues.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:57 am 
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Xupi wrote:
Petrus wrote:
Another excption to the rule who says : top 14 coaches do not give their chance to young players and prefer to take the safe option by picking a southern hemsiphere player. There is at least one young player (20 years old) who has never played top level rugby before september 2018, do not come from french academies, but has been the automatic choice as loose head prop in a top french club. And nobody had heard about him six months ago. When you are good enough, you are old enough. Easy to find his name.
Youngsters do get their chances more and more in the T14, just look at Stade Toulousain. The quota policy, which I had advocated for a decade, is finally bringing its fruits. At least we have more French names and faces in our clubs, and I hope it continues.


The problem is,the guy i refer to is not french. And how we cannot get youngster of this kind is the question. Maybe a question of hunger...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:01 am 
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Xupi wrote:
Petrus wrote:
Another excption to the rule who says : top 14 coaches do not give their chance to young players and prefer to take the safe option by picking a southern hemsiphere player. There is at least one young player (20 years old) who has never played top level rugby before september 2018, do not come from french academies, but has been the automatic choice as loose head prop in a top french club. And nobody had heard about him six months ago. When you are good enough, you are old enough. Easy to find his name.
Youngsters do get their chances more and more in the T14, just look at Stade Toulousain. The quota policy, which I had advocated for a decade, is finally bringing its fruits. At least we have more French names and faces in our clubs, and I hope it continues.

It will, it looks like we'll see less of the Nanu, Nadolo etc. and more of the French youths as some clubs/ academies like ST, UBB, Clermont even RCT are doing.
We might have the sudaf second roe and the Georgian props for a while though.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:03 am 
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Petrus wrote:
The problem is,the guy i refer to is not french. And how we cannot get youngster of this kind is the question. Maybe a question of hunger...
Hunger, you mean like the hunger of the French youths from ST who qualified from the pool of death beating back-to-back Wasps and Bath?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:04 am 
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TheFrog wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Nick Mallet anyone?

Good coach, but he has been out of the game for a while now.

Cotter seems like a good fit. He achieved quite a bit with Scotland imo.


That was a bit ironic given that his spell in France did not go so well.

Joe Schmidt had a good spell at Clermont, working with Vern Cotter. He is the one I'd like France to seduce.

What is the talk in the French press, who are they favouring to take over?


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