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Toony, stay or go
Taxi for Townsend 70%  70%  [ 50 ]
Give him more time 30%  30%  [ 21 ]
Total votes : 71
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 Post subject: Attn Scots, a quick poll
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Toony's tactical tombola failed to hit the mark in a big game again today, adding to the damage caused by poor selections and tactics against Ireland.

Eyebrows were raised when Stern Vern's contract was not renewed in favour of a relatively green head coach. Whilst Townsend is clearly a good coach who did great things with Glasgow, he appears out of his depth in an international role and despite as good a crop of players as we've had in decades we look like we're going backwards.

So the question is, should he stay or should he go?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Excuse the question but surely it depends on who might replace him.


I heard Cockerill mentioned - food for thought.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:04 pm 
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From a personal perspective I see who replaces him as a separate question.

I just don't see Townsend as the right man to take us forward. I questioned his appointment at the time but we seem to lurch from one shambles to another. There might be some stellar play from talented players in between times but we're soft, don't turn up for the big matches and our defence is shit. And it's getting worse. Our failings are obvious, and have been so for some time, to all but our coaching team.

There are a number of very decent coaches out there that could do a good job for us.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Any semblance of consistency has gone. A well coached side doesn't blow hot for 20 then struggle for 60. Let's not forget the twickenham result from Vern, but he did have us ticking over otherwise much more nicely. He is gone now though and he ain't coming back.

In a back drop of back to back poor 6n's, a terrible away record including defeats to USA and Fiji, and now failure to get out of the group, I think there should be reason enough for him to hand it on to someone else.

Who else I don't know. Perhaps Jamie Joseph would fit nicely. Rennie would do well but I think he'll be off at the end of the season. Think Cockerill needs to prove himself at Edinburgh first.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:17 pm 
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Worth noting that the SRU had targeted a quarter final as a minimum return. So by their own measure it's been a failed tournament.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:27 pm 
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iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Now that's interesting.

Rennie would be a good hire as well. Maybe better.

Not trying to rub salt in the wounds, but letting Cotter go really was an idiotic move.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:31 pm 
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fonzeee wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Now that's interesting.

Rennie would be a good hire as well. Maybe better.

Not trying to rub salt in the wounds, but letting Cotter go really was an idiotic move.


Many of us thought that at the time. We were happy with the progress being made under Cotter.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:41 pm 
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zt1903 wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Now that's interesting.

Rennie would be a good hire as well. Maybe better.

Not trying to rub salt in the wounds, but letting Cotter go really was an idiotic move.


Many of us thought that at the time. We were happy with the progress being made under Cotter.


As you should have been, there was some very good rugby being played.

It shouldn't have mattered, but I feel if Scotland hadn't been robbed by Joubert and had bowed out of the RWC as semifinalists, there's no way he wouldn't have been the man in the coahes' box yesterday.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 pm 
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fonzeee wrote:
zt1903 wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Now that's interesting.

Rennie would be a good hire as well. Maybe better.

Not trying to rub salt in the wounds, but letting Cotter go really was an idiotic move.


Many of us thought that at the time. We were happy with the progress being made under Cotter.


As you should have been, there was some very good rugby being played.

It shouldn't have mattered, but I feel if Scotland hadn't been robbed by Joubert and had bowed out of the RWC as semifinalists, there's no way he wouldn't have been the man in the coahes' box yesterday.


We’d have played Argentina in the semi, against whom we have a very good recent record. We’d have had a decent chance of making the final.

Anyway: we won’t move forward under Townsend. As I’ve posted elsewhere, our main issues (inconsistency, mental fragility and poor defence) are getting worse, not better, and as an international coach he is learning on the job. Yes, we all thought we should have kept Cotter, but that ship has sailed and we need someone else to be in charge.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:07 pm 
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You had Rennie in your books and you didn't make him head coach. Scotland clearly had the best players last night, you can tell they could've easily run over Japan but there were no cohesion to string a few plays together.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:04 am 
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iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Lancaster bar all the nice videos about redemption is a bit shit. You can take that to the bank Scots


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:14 am 
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Sorry not a Scot but I think it was a mistake getting rid of Cotter too. Thought there was really good progress being made under him, still think so but I think Cotter had a bigger picture than Townsend.

Can't help but think that that entire mess of a run up was a huge distraction though, and coaching and management should never have been drawn into it.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:25 am 
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EverReady wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Lancaster bar all the nice videos about redemption is a bit shit. You can take that to the bank Scots
Finally, an Irishman not on the perma-troll re: Lancaster. At least Townsend had a track record to speak of. Lolcaster however...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:31 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
You had Rennie in your books and you didn't make him head coach. Scotland clearly had the best players last night, you can tell they could've easily run over Japan but there were no cohesion to string a few plays together.


I really don't think that's the case. And that's no slight to the Scots.

Though I do very much agree they'd have been better off with Rennie, and they should definitely be looking in his direction if they're looking to make a switch.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:40 am 
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I think it's pretty telling too that one of Scotland's best players in yesterday's game and throughout the whole tournament, the openside Ritchie, wasn't even in the XXIII against Ireland.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:45 am 
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fonzeee wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
You had Rennie in your books and you didn't make him head coach. Scotland clearly had the best players last night, you can tell they could've easily run over Japan but there were no cohesion to string a few plays together.


I really don't think that's the case. And that's no slight to the Scots.

Though I do very much agree they'd have been better off with Rennie, and they should definitely be looking in his direction if they're looking to make a switch.

The Japanese were barely hanging on. All the Scots needed to do is go through the phases. The Scottish forwards were too strong but they didnt attack enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:17 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
You had Rennie in your books and you didn't make him head coach. Scotland clearly had the best players last night, you can tell they could've easily run over Japan but there were no cohesion to string a few plays together.


I really don't think that's the case. And that's no slight to the Scots.

Though I do very much agree they'd have been better off with Rennie, and they should definitely be looking in his direction if they're looking to make a switch.

The Japanese were barely hanging on. All the Scots needed to do is go through the phases. The Scottish forwards were too strong but they didnt attack enough.


They were barely hanging on because the Scots realized their world cup was less than half an hour from ending, so they gave the Japs everything and the kitchen sink.

But it wasn't enough because the Japanese blew out to a 28-7 lead and pretty well dominated at least 2/3rds of the match. I don't think that's all gameplan and coaching.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:33 am 
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fonzeee wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
You had Rennie in your books and you didn't make him head coach. Scotland clearly had the best players last night, you can tell they could've easily run over Japan but there were no cohesion to string a few plays together.


I really don't think that's the case. And that's no slight to the Scots.

Though I do very much agree they'd have been better off with Rennie, and they should definitely be looking in his direction if they're looking to make a switch.

The Japanese were barely hanging on. All the Scots needed to do is go through the phases. The Scottish forwards were too strong but they didnt attack enough.


They were barely hanging on because the Scots realized their world cup was less than half an hour from ending, so they gave the Japs everything and the kitchen sink.

But it wasn't enough because the Japanese blew out to a 28-7 lead and pretty well dominated at least 2/3rds of the match. I don't think that's all gameplan and coaching.


Half the match, not 2/3. From almost exactly the 10th to the 50th minute. Scotland were on top in the first 10 and last 30, though not quite as dominant to be fair.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:53 am 
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fonzeee wrote:
I think it's pretty telling too that one of Scotland's best players in yesterday's game and throughout the whole tournament, the openside Ritchie, wasn't even in the XXIII against Ireland.


That one I won’t hold against Toony. Ritchie missed the opening match through injury.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:14 am 
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I've voted to keep him on, but on the basis we get an absolutely top notch defence coach in. Guys like Gatland didn't end up where they are now by being booted after their first few years as an international head coach.

Townsend eventually got selection right, switching to a back row including Bradbury and Ritchie, and starting Brown and Graham. He isn't afraid to make big calls, leaving Huw Jones at home for instance. Those are all good things.

The big worry is that he prioritises beautiful tries over lots of tries. And also that he instils an artist mentality in his team rather than a warrior mentality.

Those things can be balanced by having a Welsh bastard for defence coach, hopefully. Make that change, give Toonie one more 6N - if it's more of the usual inglorious failure with a home win against France the only achievement - boot him out. That will still leave us with 3 years to prep for RWC2023.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 am 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
Worth noting that the SRU had targeted a quarter final as a minimum return. So by their own measure it's been a failed tournament.

Really? A minimum?
That is stupidity. They need to build their game at home go to the grass roots ffs.
Stop your importing very average players policy, it's ruining your game.
After Japan beat Ireland it was clear you were out. I think post Gats we could go the way of Scotland


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:42 am 
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clydecloggie wrote:
I've voted to keep him on, but on the basis we get an absolutely top notch defence coach in. Guys like Gatland didn't end up where they are now by being booted after their first few years as an international head coach.

Townsend eventually got selection right, switching to a back row including Bradbury and Ritchie, and starting Brown and Graham. He isn't afraid to make big calls, leaving Huw Jones at home for instance. Those are all good things.

The big worry is that he prioritises beautiful tries over lots of tries. And also that he instils an artist mentality in his team rather than a warrior mentality.

Those things can be balanced by having a Welsh bastard for defence coach, hopefully. Make that change, give Toonie one more 6N - if it's more of the usual inglorious failure with a home win against France the only achievement - boot him out. That will still leave us with 3 years to prep for RWC2023.


He is - our form players to the end of last season weren't playing Vs Ireland. Barclay and Taylor were clearly a million miles from international pace (Cockers sticking with Barclay over Ritchie in Edinburgh's run in looks a bit now), Ryan Wilson was benching for Glasgow whilst Cummings and Matt Fagerson ran amock and Hutchinson and Kyle Steyn were looking incredible at 13. Seymour starting over Graham Vs Ireland too...

He had to change against Japan because of how bad his selections had be shown to be. And the 'comeback' was exciting but 29 unanswered points were needed, aye right. We were out by 45.

There's no point in a defensive coach for 5 games as a 'is toonie the man for the job' tournament because it takes more than 5 games to instill a new philosophy. You either stick with him for a few years with mentioned changes or you bin him now.


Last edited by I like haggis on Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:43 am 
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clydecloggie wrote:
I've voted to keep him on, but on the basis we get an absolutely top notch defence coach in.

I would also like to see this, or even a decent forwards coach, but I don't think it will happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:44 am 
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mabunch78 wrote:
EverReady wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Cockerill would be very regressive.

I'm worried theyll approach Lancaster


Lancaster bar all the nice videos about redemption is a bit shit. You can take that to the bank Scots
Finally, an Irishman not on the perma-troll re: Lancaster. At least Townsend had a track record to speak of. Lolcaster however...


Exactly. Just leave him here in Leinster and look elsewhere. Glad that is sorted


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:00 am 
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I'd rather he went, but if we're stuck with him I hope there's a shake up of his backroom. I think he'll get the 6N and if we finish bottom 2 he'll be gone, sadly 4th will still be seen as some sort of achievement.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:01 am 
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Steamin Beamin wrote:
I'd rather he went, but if we're stuck with him I hope there's a shake up of his backroom. I think he'll get the 6N and if we finish bottom 2 he'll be gone, sadly 4th will still be seen as some sort of achievement.


If we win three games it is. That's just where Scottish rugby is - and will be a long time. The problem goes beyond poor coaches to even worse administration.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:18 am 
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Cheika should be available soon


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:33 am 
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I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:35 am 
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Townsend is an arrogant spoofer.

He basically engineered Cotter losing his job, and has performed significantly more poorly in the role.

:thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:43 am 
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slick wrote:
I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.


As he should, vastly better players towards their peak with experience.

Cotter came in at Scotland's lowest point in a long time, Townsend came in when we were improving pretty quickly. Stats don't show you how bad things were when Cotter joined. Townsend should have a higher win rate with more tries, anything else is a real concern.

We've only beaten one good team this year and that was France in the warm ups the week after they destroyed us. Stats will show you the wins Vs Italy, Georgia x2, Samoa and Russia as equal to bad losses Vs everyone else and the draw Vs England. That's why we need to look beyond the stats.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:59 am 
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Edit - stats look pretty similar, 19 from 36 for Cotter vs 15 from 28.

53% odd each.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:42 am 
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clydecloggie wrote:

Townsend eventually got selection right, switching to a back row including Bradbury and Ritchie, and starting Brown and Graham. He isn't afraid to make big calls, leaving Huw Jones at home for instance. Those are all good things.

Eventually isn't good enough and he has a habit of reverting to his initial players. Seymour and Graham for example.

I don't agree leaving Jones at home is a big call. Let's not forget he also left Hutchinson at home and took an out of form Taylor.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:49 am 
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lemonhead wrote:
Edit - stats look pretty similar, 19 from 36 for Cotter vs 15 from 28.

53% odd each.


Townsend started from a higher base. Scotland had won 7/10 in the previous twelve months, including our best Six Nations championship.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:52 am 
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slick wrote:
I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.


See that second last paragraph is the kind of thing really grinds my gears. We have the best players we've had in fifteen or twenty years but we should still accept the same level of performance and results as we had when the squad was poorer? It's subservient nonsense, a we-know-our-place kowtowing to our 'betters'. It's bollocks IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:10 am 
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slick wrote:
I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.

Aren't all the Scottish coaches at Edinburgh and Glasgow as well as the national side contracted to the SRU?
Surely the temptation will be to rearrange the deck chairs and install Rennie with Townsend going back to Glasgow. Least costly option for the SRU?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:24 am 
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Biffer29 wrote:
slick wrote:
I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.


See that second last paragraph is the kind of thing really grinds my gears. We have the best players we've had in fifteen or twenty years but we should still accept the same level of performance and results as we had when the squad was poorer? It's subservient nonsense, a we-know-our-place kowtowing to our 'betters'. It's bollocks IMO.


OK, I accept that, but you are battling against 100+ years of history. I agree that from the flashes of genuine class we should be doing a lot better, I don't accept this team is world beating, as we have discussed it has a very soft underbelly and I'm not sure how a change of coach will change this.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:04 pm 
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slick wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
slick wrote:
I'm for keeping him because of a mixture of emotional and practical reasons.

I think firstly it's fair to say that pretty much no one in Scotland wanted Cotter to go at that stage, I wish he had stayed on with Toony as his assistant until this point. However, there is a little bit of misty eyed revisionism about Cotter. He came in when we were dire, the worst we had been for a long time and the only real way was up. That's not to underestimate what he did, but hasn't topofthemoon shown stats that Toony has a better win %, more tries scored and less conceded?

On the emotional side, I love that we have a Scottish coach, and an ex Scotland player who was widely considered a great, in charge. I'd rather we helped him than threw him out, can we look at getting an experienced international coach in alongside him? That of course relies on Toony accepting that. Whatever happens we need a new defence coach - In the first 10 minutes yesterday Japan blew two 3 on 1 overlaps down Darcy's side, I was screaming at the TV that we need to change things then they score 2 tries down that wing - how the fudge is that not noticed by a defence coach.

On the practical side of things, i'm just not convinced a new coach will get much more out of this team. If we are being realistic, this is probably where we are in world rugby at the moment. The Ireland game was terrible, but we probably did what we were expected to do in the rest. It's also easy to forget, and sometimes hard to swallow which effects our expectations, that Ireland are serious contenders and have been top 2/3 for a few years now.

I'm just not comfortable with us throwing everything up in the air when I'm not sure it's going to make an awful lot of difference.


See that second last paragraph is the kind of thing really grinds my gears. We have the best players we've had in fifteen or twenty years but we should still accept the same level of performance and results as we had when the squad was poorer? It's subservient nonsense, a we-know-our-place kowtowing to our 'betters'. It's bollocks IMO.


OK, I accept that, but you are battling against 100+ years of history. I agree that from the flashes of genuine class we should be doing a lot better, I don't accept this team is world beating, as we have discussed it has a very soft underbelly and I'm not sure how a change of coach will change this.


No one's saying world beating - why do you leap to that from people saying we should be better than we are? Are those the only two options - either 'ach we're shit' or 'we're going to beat the All Blacks and win back to back grand slams'?

In that 100+ years of history we have had good groups of players who have taken us to above where we might expect for a period, and many of us feel this is the best crop of players we've had since the 80s, and as such we should be doing better with the talent at our disposal.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
No one's saying world beating - why do you leap to that from people saying we should be better than we are? Are those the only two options - either 'ach we're shit' or 'we're going to beat the All Blacks and win back to back grand slams'?

In that 100+ years of history we have had good groups of players who have taken us to above where we might expect for a period, and many of us feel this is the best crop of players we've had since the 80s, and as such we should be doing better with the talent at our disposal.


OK, where do you think is par for us at the moment?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:18 pm 
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slick wrote:
Quote:
No one's saying world beating - why do you leap to that from people saying we should be better than we are? Are those the only two options - either 'ach we're shit' or 'we're going to beat the All Blacks and win back to back grand slams'?

In that 100+ years of history we have had good groups of players who have taken us to above where we might expect for a period, and many of us feel this is the best crop of players we've had since the 80s, and as such we should be doing better with the talent at our disposal.


OK, where do you think is par for us at the moment?


in a 'natural order' , we'd be firm underdogs against NZ, SA, Australia, England and France, and should start games against Wales and Ireland as a 50/50. Favourites against everyone else. Japan has upset that natural order, so let's say they are now in that Wales and Ireland bracket.

Currently, we're relieved if we can leave the 6N wooden spoon in Rome and not embarrass ourselves against any team listed above. It's dire. Especially since the most likely outcome of any match against Tier 1 opposition (Italy sometimes excepted) is embarrassment.


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