Planet Rugby Forum

Luckycharmer wrote:There are 2 types of Debtors the can't pay and the won't pay. I have plenty of sympathy for people whocan't pay and will work with them but don't bury your head in the sand. I have no time won't payers, if you can afford to pay and still won't - F*ck them take the property off them.

Just got the yearly accounts for our estate, looks like 1 in 3 owners have not paid their management fee which means higher fees for the rest of us. I will be interested to see at the AGM what they have done to collect these.

nardol wrote:If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?

nardol wrote:If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?

Mullet 2 wrote:

nardol wrote:If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?

Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony

Uncle Fester wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

nardol wrote:If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?

Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony

And we've zero competition because no foreign bank will enter a market where they can't repo security in the event of the loan going bad.
And that event is significantly more likely in the Irish market then anywhere else in the developed world.

Plus the people still paying have to pay more to cover the losses due to people who are not paying, bit like LC's management fee example above.

Mullet 2 wrote:It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie

Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Uncle Fester wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie

Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Personal insolvency is a pretty lenient process actually. Creditors will only be able to come after earnings in excess of legitimate expenses, accommodation being one of them.

This "all households being repo'd automatically becoming homeless" nonsense is Freeman lunatic level scaremongering.

redderneck wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.

All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Luckycharmer wrote:There are 2 types of Debtors the can't pay and the won't pay. I have plenty of sympathy for people whocan't pay and will work with them but don't bury your head in the sand. I have no time won't payers, if you can afford to pay and still won't - F*ck them take the property off them.

Just got the yearly accounts for our estate, looks like 1 in 3 owners have not paid their management fee which means higher fees for the rest of us. I will be interested to see at the AGM what they have done to collect these.

Unfortunately, you're goosed.

The only claw back will come when they sell.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie

Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Personal insolvency is a pretty lenient process actually. Creditors will only be able to come after earnings in excess of legitimate expenses, accommodation being one of them.

This "all households being repo'd automatically becoming homeless" nonsense is Freeman lunatic level scaremongering.

Yeah, bankruptcy is a real picnic alright.

More top-notch analysis. The property market is great at the moment. A real breeze to find a new place for somebody who already had trouble affording the one they're in.

And I'm an old-fashioned economic conservative, not a Freeman you spa. Try that line for the fifth time on somebody else.

Liathroidigloine wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

redderneck wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.

All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.

PAYE grunts? Guards all driving around in Mercs and Beamers. Risk/reward my arse.

Mullet 2 wrote:

nardol wrote:If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?

Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony

Lenny wrote:

redderneck wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.

All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.

The problem I have with that argument Redder is that, in reality, there was no real risk/reward scenario for the vast majority of those employed in the private sector relative to the the public sector, especially after the benchmarking debacle. Mainly because the values of public service pensions were quite deliberately massively undervalued. For example the capital value of a civil service pension is calculated (by Revenue, who coincidentally are public sector employees) to be 20 times the annual pension, while the reality is that if you went into the market and bought that pension, which is what the vast majority of private sector workers have to do, the true multiple is about 50. So a mid level civil servant on a salary of €60k has a pension pot that’s worth approximately €1.59m in the open market, whereas the civil service has put a value of €690k on it.

And to add insult to injury a private sector employee can only put together a maximum fund in a defined contribution scheme of €2m (a fairly rare occurrence anyway) which means that the maximum equivalent pension they can provide for is €40k, with no lump sum. Of course anyone with a pot that size is probably going to avail of the Approved Retirement Fund option but there are attendant risks with that.

Luckycharmer wrote:

Lenny wrote:

redderneck wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.

All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.

The problem I have with that argument Redder is that, in reality, there was no real risk/reward scenario for the vast majority of those employed in the private sector relative to the the public sector, especially after the benchmarking debacle. Mainly because the values of public service pensions were quite deliberately massively undervalued. For example the capital value of a civil service pension is calculated (by Revenue, who coincidentally are public sector employees) to be 20 times the annual pension, while the reality is that if you went into the market and bought that pension, which is what the vast majority of private sector workers have to do, the true multiple is about 50. So a mid level civil servant on a salary of €60k has a pension pot that’s worth approximately €1.59m in the open market, whereas the civil service has put a value of €690k on it.

And to add insult to injury a private sector employee can only put together a maximum fund in a defined contribution scheme of €2m (a fairly rare occurrence anyway) which means that the maximum equivalent pension they can provide for is €40k, with no lump sum. Of course anyone with a pot that size is probably going to avail of the Approved Retirement Fund option but there are attendant risks with that.

Quick question in my work you have no option with regard to your pension unless of course you don't want to accept my employers contribution- I presume this is quite normal?

goose81 wrote:

feckwanker wrote:

goose81 wrote:Are you basing this off those clowns in the boards.ie weather forum? The last hurricane if you went by them we we would all be dead, they exaggerate absolutely everything out of proportion

Three people did die you fuckwit, even with a red alert (which had been proposed by the so called clowns on Boards.ie a good 2 days before Met Eireann did).

Sorry fuckwit I didn't expand, going by them you would have expected hundreds of deaths and half the houses in the country blown to bits. It's the most ridiculous forum on boards , literally hundreds of people who clearly don't have a notion what they are talking about predicting absolute rubbish

I'd be fairly sure met eireann can look after themselves without mt cranium or whatever his name is telling them what alerts they needs to put out when.

You can be guaranteed the weather will be 20% as bad as they are predicting for 95% of the country as what these lunatics are predicting. 5unt

National Weather Warnings

STATUS YELLOW

Weather Advisory for Ireland

Update on previous Advisory.
Exceptionally cold weather is forecast for next week with significant wind chill and severe frosts. Disruptive snow showers are expected from Tuesday onwards, particularly in the east and southeast.
Issued:
Saturday 24 February 2018 11:00
Valid:
Saturday 24 February 2018 12:07 to Saturday 03 March 2018 12:00

Duff Paddy wrote:The cleaners have to live somewhere

Duff Paddy wrote:The cleaners have to live somewhere

rfurlong wrote:I’m hearing that close to 500 new jobs are going to be announced on Wednesday .... across a few companies

The employment turnaround has been ridiculous ..... and something the electorate are beginning to recognize by the look of recent polls

While mullets party left us with 15% unemployment, subsequent governments have brought it back under 6% ...... for which they will hopefully be rewarded at election time.

“Let’s keep the recovery going” has proven a lot more credible than “lots done, more to do”

rfurlong wrote:I’m hearing that close to 500 new jobs are going to be announced on Wednesday .... across a few companies

The employment turnaround has been ridiculous ..... and something the electorate are beginning to recognize by the look of recent polls

While mullets party left us with 15% unemployment, subsequent governments have brought it back under 6% ...... for which they will hopefully be rewarded at election time.

“Let’s keep the recovery going” has proven a lot more credible than “lots done, more to do”

Mullet 2 wrote:

rfurlong wrote:I’m hearing that close to 500 new jobs are going to be announced on Wednesday .... across a few companies

The employment turnaround has been ridiculous ..... and something the electorate are beginning to recognize by the look of recent polls

While mullets party left us with 15% unemployment, subsequent governments have brought it back under 6% ...... for which they will hopefully be rewarded at election time.

“Let’s keep the recovery going” has proven a lot more credible than “lots done, more to do”

And how are they bringing about as this wonderous change? They don't have enough seats for a majority? Fill us all in there.

rfurlong wrote:What have FG done? Did you lot not notice the employment turnaround over the last 7 years?

What have FF done? I’ll tell you ....... they’ve stayed out of government allowing Ireland to rebuild. No doubt they’ll be back in power again soon to wreck the gaff with their populist nonsense.

Anyway, here’s to the 500 Jobs due to be announced tomorrow ..... fair play to FF for supply and confidence, hopefully they won’t lose their nerve, but the signs from Barry cowen aren’t great

Mullet 2 wrote:And Brian Cowen

Flametop wrote:I’m sure all our great, great, great.... grandchildren will be eternally grateful to them.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Flametop wrote:I’m sure all our great, great, great.... grandchildren will be eternally grateful to them.

Like anybody could tolerate you long enough for you to knock them up.