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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:55 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Should have gone with the Dart from Pearse.


I don't think TSG does public transport :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:59 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Should have gone with the Dart from Pearse.


Yeah.....cheers for that.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
What it goes to show is the dysfunctional nature of the NTA, RPA, CIE and it’s associated subsidiaries.

The opening of the Luas Cross City should have seen these routes already moved. This should be dictated to Dublin Bus, not their decision.

What you have throughout the system is various fiefdoms. Accountants and executives in some of the state companies who obviously want to look brilliant and blame someone else, not work together. We have a quasi segregated system at the moment between the state, regulator, holding company and subsidiaries where when you need collective decision making it’s lacking and where you need independent commercial focus it’s the same.

I know from family involved that the Leap Card set up was delayed and very controversial because of these fiefdoms. Think about how they had the Oyster Card in London for years where Transport for London organised. In Dublin, where the majority of transport means are owned by the CIE, it was all our war between the subs.

Then you have the unions.

Thankfully I think one of those problems should be solved quite soon.

Agree.

And yet you still have the nonsence of CIE/Dublin Bus appealing the proposed College Green Plaza Scheme to ABP because it might interfere withe the running of their buses.

FWIW my first job, post University in 1986, was for a UK based transportation engineering consultancy who were retained by the Dept. of the Environment to give them 'honest' advice given the various claims made by the Corporation, CIE and the other vested interests. Common ticketing first came up then with CIE-DART and CIE-Dublin Bus at each others throats.

Plus ca change...............


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:08 pm 
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TSG should have taken a chopper


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:11 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
What it goes to show is the dysfunctional nature of the NTA, RPA, CIE and it’s associated subsidiaries.

The opening of the Luas Cross City should have seen these routes already moved. This should be dictated to Dublin Bus, not their decision.

What you have throughout the system is various fiefdoms. Accountants and executives in some of the state companies who obviously want to look brilliant and blame someone else, not work together. We have a quasi segregated system at the moment between the state, regulator, holding company and subsidiaries where when you need collective decision making it’s lacking and where you need independent commercial focus it’s the same.

I know from family involved that the Leap Card set up was delayed and very controversial because of these fiefdoms. Think about how they had the Oyster Card in London for years where Transport for London organised. In Dublin, where the majority of transport means are owned by the CIE, it was all our war between the subs.

Then you have the unions.

Thankfully I think one of those problems should be solved quite soon.

Agree.

And yet you still have the nonsence of CIE/Dublin Bus appealing the proposed College Green Plaza Scheme to ABP because it might interfere withe the running of their buses.

FWIW my first job, post University in 1986, was for a UK based transportation engineering consultancy who were retained by the Dept. of the Environment to give them 'honest' advice given the various claims made by the Corporation, CIE and the other vested interests. Common ticketing first came up then with CIE-DART and CIE-Dublin Bus at each others throats.

Plus ca change...............


Dublin Bus must only have just been founded at that point because up to 1987, buses were operated by CIE.

This is what is difficult to fathom, all of these entities were part of the same company CIE from 1945. How parochialism was allowed develop so quickly should have been addressed there and then. Instead the travelling public get inconvenienced at every turn since CIE began to get broken up in 1986.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:22 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
This City is getting unmanageable from a traffic point of view.... IMO it's the worst in Europe. I left Merrion square this morning at 12.00 to get to a funeral in Malahide for 1.00, got into the village at 1.20. 10 miles and 80 minutes at non rush hour. WTF has that LUAS crap done to the city ?



Big funeral I hear. TO'C a legend in his own time.

I shouldn't have taken you that long though. Must have been a crash.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
This City is getting unmanageable from a traffic point of view.... IMO it's the worst in Europe. I left Merrion square this morning at 12.00 to get to a funeral in Malahide for 1.00, got into the village at 1.20. 10 miles and 80 minutes at non rush hour. WTF has that LUAS crap done to the city ?



Big funeral I hear. TO'C a legend in his own time.

I shouldn't have taken you that long though. Must have been a crash.


A legend in his own fcuking lunchbox more likely.... ;) .......He is 6 months older than me so I will give him the benefit of age.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Ah yeah but he hasn't swanned off into the sunset ;)

Speaking of which you don't want a few corporate packages for Saturday do you?

Unrelated of course :smug:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:31 pm 
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The NAMA thread has become done deal


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
TSG should have taken a chopper


jesus, they were a great bike


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Ah yeah but he hasn't swanned off into the sunset ;)

Speaking of which you don't want a few corporate packages for Saturday do you?

Unrelated of course :smug:


I got a text from T O'C couple of weeks back and one of my ex colleagues in Dublin has taken up quite a few. Sounds nice as I like that restaurant even though a 2.15 KO is a massive pain in the hole when trying to get punters out of a restaurant....... I have my own tickets but thanks all the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:17 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Ah yeah but he hasn't swanned off into the sunset ;)

Speaking of which you don't want a few corporate packages for Saturday do you?

Unrelated of course :smug:


I got a text from T O'C couple of weeks back and one of my ex colleagues in Dublin has taken up quite a few. Sounds nice as I like that restaurant even though a 2.15 KO is a massive pain in the hole when trying to get punters out of a restaurant....... I have my own tickets but thanks all the same.



God loves a tryer.

I'm looking forward to it.

Bringing the Father as a treat


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Miguel Indurain wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:


There's different levels of strategic default. The extreme end are the Paul Howard types taking rents in cash but not paying the mortgage but you also have folks who don't manage money well or prioritise badly. Remember reading about the wife of the Garda saying they ate cornflakes for dinner because they were so hard up but when she was interviewed on radio, it turned out that the real source of their problem was private school fees for their children. Likewise people who take multiple foreign holidays a year but are claiming hardship when it comes to paying the mortgage.

The only way to flush out this kind of carry on is to have it in plain black and white. Pay your mortgage or you're out.


When people here use the term strategic default it would be useful to know what they define as a strategic default.

The Paul Howard character is most certainly a strategic defaulter.
Some might argue, as you have, that the corn flake eaters are like Howard, others might say that they're more accidental defaulters.

My own view is that the owner occupied property in arrears should be treated differently than the btl property in arrears, by the bank selling the loan and by the fund acquiring that loan.

My other point is that this strategy by Noonan inviting funds in to our country was cynical as it was treacherous.
It was the mother of all cop outs.


It was unfortunate, but it was political, and another consequence of Lenihan's bank guarantee.
Because the banks came under state ownership the could no longer do the necessary, which was to get all loans working. Under state ownership they could not turf out the non performers and be in control to whom they flip it to. Ideally that would have been to you and me at basically the same discount the vultures are getting.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:10 pm 
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1 Microsoft Place opened today. Nice gaff.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Miguel Indurain wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
What it goes to show is the dysfunctional nature of the NTA, RPA, CIE and it’s associated subsidiaries.

The opening of the Luas Cross City should have seen these routes already moved. This should be dictated to Dublin Bus, not their decision.

What you have throughout the system is various fiefdoms. Accountants and executives in some of the state companies who obviously want to look brilliant and blame someone else, not work together. We have a quasi segregated system at the moment between the state, regulator, holding company and subsidiaries where when you need collective decision making it’s lacking and where you need independent commercial focus it’s the same.

I know from family involved that the Leap Card set up was delayed and very controversial because of these fiefdoms. Think about how they had the Oyster Card in London for years where Transport for London organised. In Dublin, where the majority of transport means are owned by the CIE, it was all our war between the subs.

Then you have the unions.

Thankfully I think one of those problems should be solved quite soon.

Agree.

And yet you still have the nonsence of CIE/Dublin Bus appealing the proposed College Green Plaza Scheme to ABP because it might interfere withe the running of their buses.

FWIW my first job, post University in 1986, was for a UK based transportation engineering consultancy who were retained by the Dept. of the Environment to give them 'honest' advice given the various claims made by the Corporation, CIE and the other vested interests. Common ticketing first came up then with CIE-DART and CIE-Dublin Bus at each others throats.

Plus ca change...............


Dublin Bus must only have just been founded at that point because up to 1987, buses were operated by CIE.

This is what is difficult to fathom, all of these entities were part of the same company CIE from 1945. How parochialism was allowed develop so quickly should have been addressed there and then. Instead the travelling public get inconvenienced at every turn since CIE began to get broken up in 1986.


It is a minefield to sort out. You have a gaping pensions hole sitting on CIE’s balance sheet and all the property too. What goes where if you were to try and split them out as wholly separate? There’s people who have worked across the three entities in their working lives. If you find a way to split that though you will sink each of the three’s balance sheets. The only way you could keep them looking good is splitting out the property, which runs into state aid rules without question in time. Even if you somehow did that then how does locations of cross service work?

Once you split out the three companies you need to start paying for things on commercial terms, which will show off just how inefficient these companies are.

To my mind there needs to be merger of CIE with the NTA. Keep the properties with the new regulator/state infrastructure holding co. and lease them to the newly independent companies. Somehow, someway, keep the pension black holes off the three independent companies balance sheets, and don’t fall foul of the EU. Get rid of all the cross services between the three and redeploy CIE staff. This new body becomes a regulator, setting routes and owning the infrastructure.

That is the only way to avoid job losses/sink the pensions and trying to get some kind of order on the situation but I guarantee it won’t happen even then. The unions will know that once you farm out the three subs it makes it far easier to sell off one of them or run it down.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:24 pm 
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In many cases the attitude of the banks to kick the can down the road has worked. I have a number of clients who were in substantial negative position on properties. Had the banks made them sell in the 2010-2016 period then the banks would have recouped the low value of the property and then have the balance of the loan unsecured on someone who probably hadn't the resources to meet payments.

In most cases the negative equity situation has evaporated and the properties have now returned to normal values leaving the banks and the original owners in a decent position. The loans in these cases were non performing as the rent didn't cover the repayments and some might call it a strategic default but it was the most sensible play from the point of view of the bank and the borrower.

The banks have probably provided heavily for these loans and will in all likelihood sell them on for more than their "carrying" value in which case they will realise a profit on the transaction while cleaning up their balance sheet.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:29 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
This City is getting unmanageable from a traffic point of view.... IMO it's the worst in Europe. I left Merrion square this morning at 12.00 to get to a funeral in Malahide for 1.00, got into the village at 1.20. 10 miles and 80 minutes at non rush hour. WTF has that LUAS crap done to the city ?


Shouldn't have a car on Merrion square when there's a perfectly good Dart to Mallahide.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
In many cases the attitude of the banks to kick the can down the road has worked. I have a number of clients who were in substantial negative position on properties. Had the banks made them sell in the 2010-2016 period then the banks would have recouped the low value of the property and then have the balance of the loan unsecured on someone who probably hadn't the resources to meet payments.

In most cases the negative equity situation has evaporated and the properties have now returned to normal values leaving the banks and the original owners in a decent position. The loans in these cases were non performing as the rent didn't cover the repayments and some might call it a strategic default but it was the most sensible play from the point of view of the bank and the borrower.

The banks have probably provided heavily for these loans and will in all likelihood sell them on for more than their "carrying" value in which case they will realise a profit on the transaction while cleaning up their balance sheet.

And the taxpayer soaks up the difference. Glad the mortgage holiday worked out well for your clients though. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
This City is getting unmanageable from a traffic point of view.... IMO it's the worst in Europe. I left Merrion square this morning at 12.00 to get to a funeral in Malahide for 1.00, got into the village at 1.20. 10 miles and 80 minutes at non rush hour. WTF has that LUAS crap done to the city ?


Shouldn't have a car on Merrion square when there's a perfectly good Dart to Mallahide.


I tried that line of questioning, I wouldn't bother. It doesn't go down well.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:11 pm 
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feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


I just licked my finger and stuck it out the window and it seems grand


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:19 pm 
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feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....

Obvious goose81 bait!

But seriously the temperature really dropped this afternoon (or maybe it was the wind chill) and there was a like snow drizzle around mid day.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....

Obvious goose81 bait!

But seriously the temperature really dropped this afternoon (or maybe it was the wind chill) and there was a like snow drizzle around mid day.


It's only goose bait if it's the early hours.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
paddyor wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....

Obvious goose81 bait!

But seriously the temperature really dropped this afternoon (or maybe it was the wind chill) and there was a like snow drizzle around mid day.


It's only goose bait if it's the early hours.

Birds are going to starve during this massive cold event, he's probably just terrified tbf.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:16 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


I just licked my finger and stuck it out the window and it seems grand


*checks Kama Sutra book and checks if missus is still awake*


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:52 pm 
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feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


Google weather said the same thing.

Just when I thought we were hitting spring. Guess the missus wont be arriving home then.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
EverReady wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


I just licked my finger and stuck it out the window and it seems grand


*checks Kama Sutra book and checks if missus is still awake*


Jesus Jackson you never stop


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


Google weather said the same thing.

Just when I thought we were hitting spring. Guess the missus wont be arriving home then.


Try not to injure yourself.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
Calling it now lads - some proper snowy/seriously cold conditions coming out way next week. All the models are aligning.....


Google weather said the same thing.

Just when I thought we were hitting spring. Guess the missus wont be arriving home then.


Try not to injure yourself.


I've been doing some kegel exercises in anticipation.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:09 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
In many cases the attitude of the banks to kick the can down the road has worked. I have a number of clients who were in substantial negative position on properties. Had the banks made them sell in the 2010-2016 period then the banks would have recouped the low value of the property and then have the balance of the loan unsecured on someone who probably hadn't the resources to meet payments.

In most cases the negative equity situation has evaporated and the properties have now returned to normal values leaving the banks and the original owners in a decent position. The loans in these cases were non performing as the rent didn't cover the repayments and some might call it a strategic default but it was the most sensible play from the point of view of the bank and the borrower.

The banks have probably provided heavily for these loans and will in all likelihood sell them on for more than their "carrying" value in which case they will realise a profit on the transaction while cleaning up their balance sheet.

And the taxpayer soaks up the difference. Glad the mortgage holiday worked out well for your clients though. :thumbup:


You haven't even the slightest clue what the real world looks like.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:29 am 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
In many cases the attitude of the banks to kick the can down the road has worked. I have a number of clients who were in substantial negative position on properties. Had the banks made them sell in the 2010-2016 period then the banks would have recouped the low value of the property and then have the balance of the loan unsecured on someone who probably hadn't the resources to meet payments.

In most cases the negative equity situation has evaporated and the properties have now returned to normal values leaving the banks and the original owners in a decent position. The loans in these cases were non performing as the rent didn't cover the repayments and some might call it a strategic default but it was the most sensible play from the point of view of the bank and the borrower.

The banks have probably provided heavily for these loans and will in all likelihood sell them on for more than their "carrying" value in which case they will realise a profit on the transaction while cleaning up their balance sheet.

And the taxpayer soaks up the difference. Glad the mortgage holiday worked out well for your clients though. :thumbup:


You haven't even the slightest clue what the real world looks like.


There are loads like him. Lifelong PAYE workers who just don’t get it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:31 am 
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I see Fester more like a stomping child.

He didn't lose his job so he should have been able to buy his neighbours gaff for tuppence ha'penny


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:40 am 
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Every sympathy for those who couldn't repay their mortgages. We've got to put something in place so that people like that are protected without taking the piss out of the banks.

However, I don't see why strategic defaulters should have any sympathy. You have a debt you can repay but refuse to do so just because you can? How is that justified?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:43 am 
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Who is giving them sympathy?

The whole argument started because Camroc was implying that 14,000 mortgages are strategic defaulters.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:46 am 
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Read 'acceptance' when it comes to sympathy for strategic defaulters. See Liathroidigloine's post above.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:51 am 
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I don't read you but I don't think you're the type for the toss everyone to the wolves camp.

As Liathroidigloine pointed out the banks could not have taken the losses anyway.

Fester was advocating a fire sale and saying NAMA was stalling the recovery. :lol:


Last edited by Mullet 2 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 am 
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It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:57 am 
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The problem there is that the bank must answer for giving out spectacularly retarded mortgages.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:03 am 
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I might be using the term 'strategic defaulter' incorrectly but I see it as someone who can repay a loan but chooses not to, so not quite AJ's example where they can only afford to repay one.

I certainly wouldn't throw everyone to wolves but as has been pointed out, plenty stopped paying their loans straight after it became clear that their house wouldn't be repossessed. We need a system in place that protects people who get into difficulty but doesn't let them completely off the hook while not putting them into lifelong debt. I guess that's one way of describing quicker bankruptcy but I don't think a normal person even thinks that way in Ireland yet and I'm not sure I want to go the American route just yet.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:11 am 
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anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


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