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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:14 am 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


Afuckingmen


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:14 am 
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Grim :| Time to peruse publicjobs.ie for the day I think.


Last edited by normilet on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:15 am 
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Oh and the portion of their pension that wasn't wiped out by the downturn was raided by Micahel Noonan to make sure every Public Sector in the country could bitch and moan about not changing their car every two years anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:20 am 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:22 am 
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normilet wrote:
Grim...Time to peruse publicjobs.ie for the day I think.


Definitely. That's my third significant recession and I have told my kids to make sure they are in a government job when the shit hits the fan.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:23 am 
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redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


PAYE grunts? Guards all driving around in Mercs and Beamers. Risk/reward my arse.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:27 am 
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Our hardworking civil servants getting 20% premium above their non-secured private sector colleagues.

Risk and reward me nat king cole


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:39 am 
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We looked at purchasing some btls in 2006/7, and as mentioned here by me at the time, couldn't make them work financially without factoring in asset value growth. So we, luckily, didn't. Whilst I have great sympathy for those who found themselves in arrears, blaming banks for lending money is the wrong route to go. People entering any commercial arrangement need to do the work themselves to see are they comfortable with the level of risk they are taking on, and the consequences of things going to shit for a few years. Like Liathróidaíglóine I have also been through three recession/depressions, and working in the construction industry was always aware that what goes up always comes down hard. The best decision we made, when things started to really look up in the late '90s was to pay off our mortgage as quickly as possible with the intention of being mortgage free when the next recession came. Whilst people must have some protections surrounding their family homes, using the value built up in them as a means to finance what are commercial btls comes with very obvious risks, and I think there is a huge moral hazard in allowing people to essentially get mortgage free periods simply because they overextended themselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am 
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Nobody is advocating for that


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:43 am 
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Screw the narrative on here.

If you borrow money you are taking a risk. Doing it for your main dwelling is one thing, doing it for investment purposes a whole other. For the latter if you get burnt while obviously I have sympathy, thats what can happen to investments. Stop trying to blame others for your (in hindsight) shitty decisions.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:44 am 
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nardol wrote:
Screw the narrative on here.

If you borrow money you are taking a risk. Doing it for your main dwelling is one thing, doing it for investment purposes a whole other. For the latter if you get burnt while obviously I have sympathy, thats what can happen to investments. Stop trying to blame others for your (in hindsight) shitty decisions.



Another poster making up a narrative in his head. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:49 am 
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anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

That one is a bit dim. You can't pick and choose which mortgage you'll pay and expect the bank to leave that alone when the chips are down. If you use your PPR as security for more borrowing, you deserve everything that comes your way if it doesn't work out.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:51 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.

That one is a bit dim. You can't pick and choose which mortgage you'll pay and expect the bank to leave that alone when the chips are down. If you use your PPR as security for more borrowing, you deserve everything that comes your way if it doesn't work out.



For a fella who professes to hate the church you'd have made a great Parish Priest in the 40s


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
The problem there is that the bank must answer for giving out spectacularly retarded mortgages.


i'm liking this new leftie Mullet....i'm picturing beard, recyclable water bottle, listening to 2 door cinema club through beats earphones, ankle height skinny (although...) jeans


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 pm 
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ticketlessinseattle wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
The problem there is that the bank must answer for giving out spectacularly retarded mortgages.


i'm liking this new leftie Mullet....i'm picturing beard, recyclable water bottle, listening to 2 door cinema club through beats earphones, ankle height skinny (although...) jeans


Dont forget vegan


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:22 pm 
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and the craftiest of beer drinkers


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:27 pm 
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I like me some John Denver and a medium rare handburger thank y'all very much.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:32 pm 
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There are 2 types of Debtors the can't pay and the won't pay. I have plenty of sympathy for people whocan't pay and will work with them but don't bury your head in the sand. I have no time won't payers, if you can afford to pay and still won't - F*ck them take the property off them.

Just got the yearly accounts for our estate, looks like 1 in 3 owners have not paid their management fee which means higher fees for the rest of us. I will be interested to see at the AGM what they have done to collect these.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:34 pm 
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If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Luckycharmer wrote:
There are 2 types of Debtors the can't pay and the won't pay. I have plenty of sympathy for people whocan't pay and will work with them but don't bury your head in the sand. I have no time won't payers, if you can afford to pay and still won't - F*ck them take the property off them.

Just got the yearly accounts for our estate, looks like 1 in 3 owners have not paid their management fee which means higher fees for the rest of us. I will be interested to see at the AGM what they have done to collect these.



Unfortunately, you're goosed.

The only claw back will come when they sell.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:37 pm 
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nardol wrote:
If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?



Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:38 pm 
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nardol wrote:
If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?


That's such a clever plan.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:40 pm 
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It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie

Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
nardol wrote:
If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?


Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony

And we've zero competition because no foreign bank will enter a market where they can't repo security in the event of the loan going bad.
And that event is significantly more likely in the Irish market then anywhere else in the developed world.

Plus the people still paying have to pay more to cover the losses due to people who are not paying, bit like LC's management fee example above.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
nardol wrote:
If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?


Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony

And we've zero competition because no foreign bank will enter a market where they can't repo security in the event of the loan going bad.
And that event is significantly more likely in the Irish market then anywhere else in the developed world.

Plus the people still paying have to pay more to cover the losses due to people who are not paying, bit like LC's management fee example above.



Sure sure


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie


Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Personal insolvency is a pretty lenient process actually. Creditors will only be able to come after earnings in excess of legitimate expenses, accommodation being one of them.

This "all households being repo'd automatically becoming homeless" nonsense is Freeman lunatic level scaremongering.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Talking about pensions that construction Industry pension scheme was a joke.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie


Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Personal insolvency is a pretty lenient process actually. Creditors will only be able to come after earnings in excess of legitimate expenses, accommodation being one of them.

This "all households being repo'd automatically becoming homeless" nonsense is Freeman lunatic level scaremongering.



Yeah, bankruptcy is a real picnic alright.

More top-notch analysis. The property market is great at the moment. A real breeze to find a new place for somebody who already had trouble affording the one they're in.

And I'm an old-fashioned economic conservative, not a Freeman you spa. Try that line for the fifth time on somebody else.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:03 pm 
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What the Left want:

No personal responsibility for not paying your mortgage
100% responsibility for bankers issuing poor loans

Centrists accept that you couldn’t wholly sink the banks or the functioning economy would have collapsed.

Either way we all pay. We got stability but we’re still flushing out the shit from our toxic loans and have artificial inflation of asset prices there to try and contain the shit.

It’s the younger worker who is paying at the moment and will continue to.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:06 pm 
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redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


The problem I have with that argument Redder is that, in reality, there was no real risk/reward scenario for the vast majority of those employed in the private sector relative to the the public sector, especially after the benchmarking debacle. Mainly because the values of public service pensions were quite deliberately massively undervalued. For example the capital value of a civil service pension is calculated (by Revenue, who coincidentally are public sector employees) to be 20 times the annual pension, while the reality is that if you went into the market and bought that pension, which is what the vast majority of private sector workers have to do, the true multiple is about 50. So a mid level civil servant on a salary of €60k has a pension pot that’s worth approximately €1.59m in the open market, whereas the civil service has put a value of €690k on it.

And to add insult to injury a private sector employee can only put together a maximum fund in a defined contribution scheme of €2m (a fairly rare occurrence anyway) which means that the maximum equivalent pension they can provide for is €40k, with no lump sum. Of course anyone with a pot that size is probably going to avail of the Approved Retirement Fund option but there are attendant risks with that.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Luckycharmer wrote:
There are 2 types of Debtors the can't pay and the won't pay. I have plenty of sympathy for people whocan't pay and will work with them but don't bury your head in the sand. I have no time won't payers, if you can afford to pay and still won't - F*ck them take the property off them.

Just got the yearly accounts for our estate, looks like 1 in 3 owners have not paid their management fee which means higher fees for the rest of us. I will be interested to see at the AGM what they have done to collect these.



Unfortunately, you're goosed.

The only claw back will come when they sell.


We will see, this is my area of expertise - I bet I could get half it in myself if not would make it very uncomfortable for the rest.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
It's genius alright

Get a state-owned bank to take their home from them. Taking a massive haircut.

Saddle the person with the balance making them an economic zombie


Put them up in a hotel at 500 quid a week

Eventually, give them a free house

Nardol and Fester should start a new party.

Personal insolvency is a pretty lenient process actually. Creditors will only be able to come after earnings in excess of legitimate expenses, accommodation being one of them.

This "all households being repo'd automatically becoming homeless" nonsense is Freeman lunatic level scaremongering.



Yeah, bankruptcy is a real picnic alright.

More top-notch analysis. The property market is great at the moment. A real breeze to find a new place for somebody who already had trouble affording the one they're in.

And I'm an old-fashioned economic conservative, not a Freeman you spa. Try that line for the fifth time on somebody else.

True old-fashioned economic conservatives wouldn't have any truck with the notion of folks getting to stay in houses they aren't paying for or never really could afford in the first place.

Proper Reaganites like you claim to be would be insisting on a tough but fair you've six months to sort yourself out or you find somewhere to live that you can afford.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


PAYE grunts? Guards all driving around in Mercs and Beamers. Risk/reward my arse.

Am I being wooshed here or are you aware that private sector employees can be PAYE as well?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
nardol wrote:
If payment is not received regardless of willingness or not take the property away.
What do people think a mortgage is?

Why do you think mortgage rates so high here compared to elsewhere?



Because we have zero competition.

but do keep merrily talking pony


Were the problems not caused by incorrectly dealing with competition ?
Going into an 8 year price war without correctly doing the risk sums.
It's pointless talking about lack of competition when you've burnt the house down.
Lending larger and larger to amounts to increasingly marginal businesses that required profits from external factors, ie Sure land does not create itself, property never goes down.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Lenny wrote:
redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


The problem I have with that argument Redder is that, in reality, there was no real risk/reward scenario for the vast majority of those employed in the private sector relative to the the public sector, especially after the benchmarking debacle. Mainly because the values of public service pensions were quite deliberately massively undervalued. For example the capital value of a civil service pension is calculated (by Revenue, who coincidentally are public sector employees) to be 20 times the annual pension, while the reality is that if you went into the market and bought that pension, which is what the vast majority of private sector workers have to do, the true multiple is about 50. So a mid level civil servant on a salary of €60k has a pension pot that’s worth approximately €1.59m in the open market, whereas the civil service has put a value of €690k on it.

And to add insult to injury a private sector employee can only put together a maximum fund in a defined contribution scheme of €2m (a fairly rare occurrence anyway) which means that the maximum equivalent pension they can provide for is €40k, with no lump sum. Of course anyone with a pot that size is probably going to avail of the Approved Retirement Fund option but there are attendant risks with that.


Quick question in my work you have no option with regard to your pension unless of course you don't want to accept my employers contribution- I presume this is quite normal?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Location: Darkest deepest northwest
Luckycharmer wrote:
Lenny wrote:
redderneck wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
anonymous_joe wrote:
It's an odd argument.

The average arrears are something like €60k.

Most of the people I've represented have been paying off as much as they can. Strategic defaulting often arises where somebody has two or three mortgages and pays all the money they can on their actual house. That's very different to the small number who paid nothing at all.

There are people who did that, but there's a difference between a strategic defaulter and somebody who took out a spectacularly retarded mortgage.


Some of the cases I'm talking about are where a self employed lad bought an apartment in Dublin for the kids to go to college at peak prices when his business was performing well and he had no problem meeting the payments. Suddenly his business goes to shit through no fault of his own as the factory down the road has closed and his customers are now in Australia. His kids have to get the grant to go to college while he survives on €15 to €20k per annum or ploughs his savings back into the business to try to keep it afloat. He keeps on a couple of lads despite not having enough work for them.

He rents out the apartment as he would be saddled with a massive remainder debt if he was to sell but the rent isn't nearly enough to meet the repayments and all the while he's paying tax on the rent. Gradually, his business starts picking up. Rents increase and get closer to the loan repayments, prices improve and he can see light at the end of the tunnel after 8 years of lying awake at night, trying to keep the Revenue at bay and keeping suppliers happy enough so that they will keep supplying.

That is the real world far removed from 5% pay cuts, pension related deduction and pay restoration. That was the desperate situation many ordinary small business found themselves in. Electricians, quantity surveyors, shop keepers, pubs, small manufacturers, car dealerships. The majority of these people are in their 40's and 50's and will never borrow from the banks again. Most of them havent put a penny into their pension funds in years and will suffer accordingly in later years. They are the real losers from the lost 10 years, not those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary.


All of this is fair enough. Balance that with those who will receive a 1.5 X tax free lump sum and 50% final salary who would have looked on as very many of the type of lads you describe above lived it loadsamoney large for a decade or more and laughed at PAYE grunts whilst doing so. Balance it with those non PS PAYE grunts who will not enjoy the benefits mentioned above when their PAYE days end; who may well be massively under or unprovided for pension wise themselves, who witnessed similar largesse.

Risk has its reward. It should -MUST - also have its downside; otherwise it's not risk and merits no reward.

There is nothing clearcut here. Case by case needs to be applied.


The problem I have with that argument Redder is that, in reality, there was no real risk/reward scenario for the vast majority of those employed in the private sector relative to the the public sector, especially after the benchmarking debacle. Mainly because the values of public service pensions were quite deliberately massively undervalued. For example the capital value of a civil service pension is calculated (by Revenue, who coincidentally are public sector employees) to be 20 times the annual pension, while the reality is that if you went into the market and bought that pension, which is what the vast majority of private sector workers have to do, the true multiple is about 50. So a mid level civil servant on a salary of €60k has a pension pot that’s worth approximately €1.59m in the open market, whereas the civil service has put a value of €690k on it.

And to add insult to injury a private sector employee can only put together a maximum fund in a defined contribution scheme of €2m (a fairly rare occurrence anyway) which means that the maximum equivalent pension they can provide for is €40k, with no lump sum. Of course anyone with a pot that size is probably going to avail of the Approved Retirement Fund option but there are attendant risks with that.


Quick question in my work you have no option with regard to your pension unless of course you don't want to accept my employers contribution- I presume this is quite normal?


Yeah, most occupational group schemes have a mandatory minimum employee contribution. You can make an independent AVC contribution to a policy of your choice - a PRSA AVC - if you want to contribute more than that minimum contribution. That can be done by way of salary deduction or direct debit from your own account.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Posts: 2699
goose81 wrote:
feckwanker wrote:
goose81 wrote:
Are you basing this off those clowns in the boards.ie weather forum? The last hurricane if you went by them we we would all be dead, they exaggerate absolutely everything out of proportion

Three people did die you fuckwit, even with a red alert (which had been proposed by the so called clowns on Boards.ie a good 2 days before Met Eireann did).

Sorry fuckwit I didn't expand, going by them you would have expected hundreds of deaths and half the houses in the country blown to bits. It's the most ridiculous forum on boards , literally hundreds of people who clearly don't have a notion what they are talking about predicting absolute rubbish

I'd be fairly sure met eireann can look after themselves without mt cranium or whatever his name is telling them what alerts they needs to put out when.

You can be guaranteed the weather will be 20% as bad as they are predicting for 95% of the country as what these lunatics are predicting. 5unt


From Met Eireann

Quote:
National Weather Warnings

STATUS YELLOW

Weather Advisory for Ireland

Update on previous Advisory.
Exceptionally cold weather is forecast for next week with significant wind chill and severe frosts. Disruptive snow showers are expected from Tuesday onwards, particularly in the east and southeast.
Issued:
Saturday 24 February 2018 11:00
Valid:
Saturday 24 February 2018 12:07 to Saturday 03 March 2018 12:00


:D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Posts: 42626
Facebook now reported to be interested in taking the Johnny Ronan development of the old AIB HQ in Ballsbridge (opposite the RDS), in addition to the recently constructed new AIB HQ building behind it.

That'll be in excess of 700,000 sq ft, and room for 5,000 employees.

Are the tech mncs ramping up their Irish presence in advance of bringing more of their revenue through the Irish tax system ?

The numbers they employ is startling.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Posts: 14793
Google rumoured to have bought the entire block of apartments being developed off the Howth Road in Clontarf


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