Planet Rugby Forum

By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Madness wrote:Assuming everyone is fit and in form.......my choice

Autumn Internationals - Eddie said no Lions

Genge
LCD
Williams
Launch
Attwood
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes
Robson
Ford
May
Manu
Marchant
Wade
Brown

Mullan, Taylor, Hill, Ewels, Curry, Maunder, Slade, Haley

When everyone is back for the 6 Nations and again assuming everyone is fit and on form

Mako
George
Sinkler
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill or Curry or Curry
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daley
Teo
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

Genge, LCD, Cole, Launch, Hughes, Robson, Ford, Manu

I wouldnt have manu anywhere near the team until he has a least 6 month of playing in form, week in week out.

Loz has looked the best 12 from this summer.

And TBH I think attwoods time has gone - we have the top 4 locks for the time being (the lions and launch) Ewels is next cab off the rank - and can gain experience for after 2019.

DragsterDriver wrote:Daly- does he look like a centre playing on the wing? I don't know if it's knee jerk because he got a lot of shit ball standing still but i'd still rather see Jonny May's gas.

I thought Daly did fairly well, unlucky not to score early, helped create O'Brien's try. He got gassed, but that Ioane fella is quick. Eddie Jones says he likes one flier (surely Watson now) and one industrious wing so there's always likely to be a compromise. May is a braindead rugby player imo and Nowell is too slow.

T'eo butchered a good chance by not passing but otherwise he's looked too good compared to his teammates- genuinely looks like a pro having a run out at a lower level. Defended and carried well again.

He played well, but personally not really keen on him as a starting 12, he is quite one-dimensional from what I have seen.

In saying that, I'd retain Te'o and swap Farrell who doesn't look fully fit for Sexton & Halfpenny for Daly on the wing for his goal-kicking.

Hawk97 wrote:DD - harsh on George. You don't make 17 tackles (second most) if you're not fit.

I read it was 18 tackles George made. Incidentally Haskell was top tackler in his previous two matches. The Lions should really pick players who tackle, because let's face it, they're going to be doing a lot of it.

englishchief wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:Another narrative that has been given rise; we overrate Farrell. I'm not sure about that. I used to be his biggest detractor, but he's won me over over the last year and a half. He's genuinely creative, no?

Didn't look completely in control today. Nothing wrong with Ford being at 10. I find the 'he's too small' line quite tiresome, Farrell is hardly an excellent defender.

I think the Kiwis would smash Ford tbh, jmo. That said, if I was picking at England team to play (not necessarily v NZ), Ford would be at 10 at the moment. Farrell doesn't look at his best at all.

Where is everyone getting the idea that Daly was badly burned for pace? He has to turn, has to run the angle (someone seemed to suggest this is an advantage, Pythagoras would be turning in his grave), and yet damn near takes Ioane. Watson doesn't seem to make any more ground than Daly (until Ioane has to catch his feet from the Daly missed tackle).

The only good winger in the world is the fastest winger in the world

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Raggs wrote:Where is everyone getting the idea that Daly was badly burned for pace? He has to turn, has to run the angle (someone seemed to suggest this is an advantage, Pythagoras would be turning in his grave), and yet damn near takes Ioane. Watson doesn't seem to make any more ground than Daly (until Ioane has to catch his feet from the Daly missed tackle).

It's thick plums being thick plums. Williams is the only one to shoulder any major blame for shelling a simple catch

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Absolutely, it really is the scrap heap for him. We still have the likes of Robshaw playing well and Farrell was being talked about as a Lions captain so we have that leadership which is the only attribute he brought to the team.

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

terryfinch wrote:England for next 6Ns

Nowell
Daly
Joseph
Teo
Watson
Farrell
Youngs

Billy
Underhill
Itoje
Launchbury
Kruis
Sinckler
George
Mako

terryfinch wrote:England for next 6Ns

Brown
Daly
Joseph
Teo
Watson
Ford
Youngs

Billy
Robshaw
Wilson
Itoje
Kruis
Cole
George
Mako

Fixed it for you

Can't fault Brown's recent performances but it would be good to see someone else make the step up to challenge him.

The lions game against the chiefs gave a very good example of exactly why Haskell is in the side. The clearout he did against the chief's 7 who was in position over the ball, after the break from our own half, is exactly why coaches rate him. If we get rid of Hartley and Marler too, we're really going to need to step up our breakdown work elsewhere.

Why would we get rid of Marler?

Hawk97 wrote:Why would we get rid of Marler?

The Genge love-in. Not happening soon IMO

Marler's stock has done nothing but improve over the last 3 years (with a small blip in Sept 2015...).

Hawk97 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

Itoje and Billy V are the only two nailed on for the 2019 WC and beyond - even Faz could come under pressure from Te'o/Ford.

Hawk97 wrote:Marler's stock has done nothing but improve over the last 3 years (with a small blip in Sept 2015...).

I'm surprised McGrath is preferred to him for the Lions tbh.

plum-pudding wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

Itoje and Billy V are the only two nailed on for the 2019 WC and beyond - even Faz could come under pressure from Te'o/Ford.

Itoje could come under pressure from our sheer dominance in lock stocks (and smoking barrels...) no? Launch and Kruis could equally form a dominant partnership. Although I suspect he'd shoe-horn Itoje into 6 if that happened.

Hawk97 wrote:Why would we get rid of Marler?

He's 26 now. Time waits for no man.

Hawk97 wrote:Why would we get rid of Marler?

Most people seem to be starting Mako. Even if we keep Marler on the bench, that's 60 minutes of Marler not being on the field working at rucks.

Hawk97 wrote:

plum-pudding wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

Itoje and Billy V are the only two nailed on for the 2019 WC and beyond - even Faz could come under pressure from Te'o/Ford.

Itoje could come under pressure from our sheer dominance in lock stocks (and smoking barrels...) no? Launch and Kruis could equally form a dominant partnership. Although I suspect he'd shoe-horn Itoje into 6 if that happened.

no. I don't think so.
Itoje is not going to be dropped for Launch, once Borthwick is comfortable with him calling lineouts, Kruis would be the one under pressure from Launchbury/Lawes.
Of course all this is pie in the sky, since Isiekwe is nailed on for the WC and Sarries are already in the process of easing out Kruis.

Raggs wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:Why would we get rid of Marler?

Most people seem to be starting Mako. Even if we keep Marler on the bench, that's 60 minutes of Marler not being on the field working at rucks.

Everyone loves mako in the loose. He and furlong were a bit shit on saturday. Not sure Eddie won't still start Joe and bring mako on to finish.

I'm finding the Mako love-in from the non-English to be a little bit strange, seeing as he's not really shown his ball skills and breakdown ability that stand him apart from Marler, and that are always on display for England & Saracens.

JM2K6 wrote:I'm finding the Mako love-in from the non-English to be a little bit strange, seeing as he's not really shown his ball skills and breakdown ability that stand him apart from Marler, and that are always on display for England & Saracens.

Agreed. Also I'd start with Marler for his defensive work and scrummaging and have Mako coming off the bench.

Marler's blotted his copybook with that idiot yellow, I just want Mako to be let off the leash a bit.

Raggs wrote:The lions game against the chiefs gave a very good example of exactly why Haskell is in the side. The clearout he did against the chief's 7 who was in position over the ball, after the break from our own half, is exactly why coaches rate him. If we get rid of Hartley and Marler too, we're really going to need to step up our breakdown work elsewhere.

Amen brother Raggs. I hope he goes well tomorrow and reminds everyone that you need piano shifters as well as piano players.

JM2K6 wrote:Marler's blotted his copybook with that idiot yellow, I just want Mako to be let off the leash a bit.

Mako really is an ABs type of player, he should be standing at first receiver and distributing when it's on, he's a great weapon in the carry, but his real effectiveness is using his distribution. Needs to be given the freedom he is in a Sarries shirt (he virtually played 10 against Toulon in the away game didn't he?). Piano player of a prop vs Marler's more piano shifter style.

Gospel wrote:

Raggs wrote:The lions game against the chiefs gave a very good example of exactly why Haskell is in the side. The clearout he did against the chief's 7 who was in position over the ball, after the break from our own half, is exactly why coaches rate him. If we get rid of Hartley and Marler too, we're really going to need to step up our breakdown work elsewhere.

Amen brother Raggs. I hope he goes well tomorrow and reminds everyone that you need piano shifters as well as piano players.

I'd noted about 10 minutes earlier in the match thread that Tips had just completely failed to clear out an opposition player over the ball, and said that's why Haskell is there, then he put in that perfectly timed massive hit . Eddie will look at Hask running 60m and clearing out a 7 perfectly, and Curry failing to clear a scrum half off of Hughes, and will likely continue to come down on the side of protecting our own ball, rather than worrying about the oppositions.

Hawk97 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

I can't see Robshaw wanting it again. He's not even taken the captaincy back at Quins despite being the best candidate by a country mile.

The Man Without Fear wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:By the way, anyone notice how well JG is throwing into the lineout? Hartley is now just a shell of a player (for England) used only because he has the most experience and is captain. JG was always a better all-round player, he nails the lineout, has a partnership with the Sarries locks. Some of our players are now getting good experience and exposure. Can we now move on from Dylan?

Is there another effective captain? I agree, George has clearly demonstrated he is ready.

Give Robshaw another go? Make Launch step up? Itoje's time? Or Farrell takes it over, which seems more likely.

I can't see Robshaw wanting it again. He's not even taken the captaincy back at Quins despite being the best candidate by a country mile.

Pick the best team and throw the captain's armband to whichever forward is standing closest to the changing room door.

How many players are actually guaranteed their place?

Vunipola, Itoje and Farrell? Anyone else? Youngs perhaps, but only because of the paucity of competition, not because he's outstanding. Kruis seems to be but he's also in the most hotly contested position.

It seems the general consensus is that Itoje is going to be the captain eventually anyway, might as well just give it to him now.

^ Eddie needs to decide whether he is going to play Hartley as first choice hooker at the 2019 WC, or not. If he isn't going to be playing, there is not point in playing him over George.

In my opinion by 2019 the back row and second row will be our strongest areas on the pitch. If Curry, Curry, Mercer, Underhill and Earl all develop then we will have class depth to back up Billy V and Robshaw. The younger ones also seem to be better ball in hand, especially Mercer who was chucking the ball about at the U20 WC.

As I've said before I'm most worried about are the starting scrum-half and full back, and potentially a lack of depth at prop if Sinks and Stonegenge don't come on and the form of Marler/Cole/Mako falters.

Everything now has to be about 2019. It is worth not winning games in the 6N as convincingly as we otherwise would if it means we are blooding our first choice players for 2019.

If Eddie wanted Maunder as his first choice scrum-half for 2019 (which he won't as he's far too inexperienced), then he should start him there at every game possible from now to 2019. Same if he moves Daly/Watson to FB.

englishchief wrote:^ Eddie needs to decide whether he is going to play Hartley as first choice hooker at the 2019 WC, or not. If he isn't going to be playing, there is not point in playing him over George.

In my opinion by 2019 the back row and second row will be our strongest areas on the pitch. If Curry, Curry, Mercer, Underhill and Earl all develop then we will have class depth to back up Billy V and Robshaw. The younger ones also seem to be better ball in hand, especially Mercer who was chucking the ball about at the U20 WC.

As I've said before I'm most worried about are the starting scrum-half and full back, and potentially a lack of depth at prop if Sinks and Stonegenge don't come on and the form of Marler/Cole/Mako falters.

Everything now has to be about 2019. It is worth not winning games in the 6N as convincingly as we otherwise would if it means we are blooding our first choice players for 2019.

If Eddie wanted Maunder as his first choice scrum-half for 2019 (which he won't as he's far too inexperienced), then he should start him there at every game possible from now to 2019. Same if he moves Daly/Watson to FB.

I don't know about that man. RWC 2019 schedule already looks unforgiving for England, I wouldn't like EJ to put all the eggs in that basket. I'd quite like to see England make history in doing a first ever 3-peat of Six Nations titles next year. No team has managed to win the competition outright three times in a row in 134 years.

Rugby2023 wrote:

englishchief wrote:^ Eddie needs to decide whether he is going to play Hartley as first choice hooker at the 2019 WC, or not. If he isn't going to be playing, there is not point in playing him over George.

In my opinion by 2019 the back row and second row will be our strongest areas on the pitch. If Curry, Curry, Mercer, Underhill and Earl all develop then we will have class depth to back up Billy V and Robshaw. The younger ones also seem to be better ball in hand, especially Mercer who was chucking the ball about at the U20 WC.

As I've said before I'm most worried about are the starting scrum-half and full back, and potentially a lack of depth at prop if Sinks and Stonegenge don't come on and the form of Marler/Cole/Mako falters.

Everything now has to be about 2019. It is worth not winning games in the 6N as convincingly as we otherwise would if it means we are blooding our first choice players for 2019.

If Eddie wanted Maunder as his first choice scrum-half for 2019 (which he won't as he's far too inexperienced), then he should start him there at every game possible from now to 2019. Same if he moves Daly/Watson to FB.

I don't know about that man. RWC 2019 schedule already looks unforgiving for England, I wouldn't like EJ to put all the eggs in that basket. I'd quite like to see England make history in doing a first ever 3-peat of Six Nations titles next year. No team has managed to win the competition outright three times in a row in 134 years.

This!

Look after 2019 in 2019. The coach has to pick the squad with victory in the next game in mind. Of course he has to have some sort of succession plan to bring new guys through but this focus on 4 year cycles is counter productive. There are 2 Six Nation competitions to worry about before we need to think about world cup games FFS.

Jones has stated that his next EPS selection will be made on the basis of who he wants to play in RWC 2019.

Once Kev gets half a dozen games under his belt for Exeter that'll be the 7 jersey settled for the World Cup

plum-pudding wrote: Of course all this is pie in the sky, since Isiekwe is nailed on for the WC and Sarries are already in the process of easing out Kruis.

Sorry, but no.

Again, EJ is wax-lyrical about Kroos.

Hawk97 wrote:

plum-pudding wrote: Of course all this is pie in the sky, since Isiekwe is nailed on for the WC and Sarries are already in the process of easing out Kruis.

Sorry, but no.

Again, EJ is wax-lyrical about Kroos.

It's a joke about how many people are talking about young players being phased out in favour of foetuses

Raggs wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:Marler's blotted his copybook with that idiot yellow, I just want Mako to be let off the leash a bit.

Mako really is an ABs type of player, he should be standing at first receiver and distributing when it's on, he's a great weapon in the carry, but his real effectiveness is using his distribution. Needs to be given the freedom he is in a Sarries shirt (he virtually played 10 against Toulon in the away game didn't he?). Piano player of a prop vs Marler's more piano shifter style.

Gospel wrote:

Raggs wrote:The lions game against the chiefs gave a very good example of exactly why Haskell is in the side. The clearout he did against the chief's 7 who was in position over the ball, after the break from our own half, is exactly why coaches rate him. If we get rid of Hartley and Marler too, we're really going to need to step up our breakdown work elsewhere.

Amen brother Raggs. I hope he goes well tomorrow and reminds everyone that you need piano shifters as well as piano players.

I'd noted about 10 minutes earlier in the match thread that Tips had just completely failed to clear out an opposition player over the ball, and said that's why Haskell is there, then he put in that perfectly timed massive hit . Eddie will look at Hask running 60m and clearing out a 7 perfectly, and Curry failing to clear a scrum half off of Hughes, and will likely continue to come down on the side of protecting our own ball, rather than worrying about the oppositions.

I think this is the appeal of Underhill - he brings a similar physicality to Haskell with a bit more youthful vigour and looks better over the ball (not Haskell's forte anyway). He looks like a reasonable carrier and he is apparently skilful enough to be used as a link player, but I haven't really seen that side of his game yet to comment.

I expect to see Haskell in and around the squad for the time being but if Underhill can live up to the hype, I think he'll be taking the role of the destructive 7.