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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:56 pm 
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nah, next year is definitely the year we get rid of Brown, it's just a matter of time, Brown is yesterday's news, it's now all about Tom Parton/Mat Protheroe


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:59 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
nah, next year is definitely the year we get rid of Brown, it's just a matter of time, Brown is yesterday's news, it's now all about Tom Parton/Mat Protheroe


Wrong login, Wendigo


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:05 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
guys like Itoje and Launch have been hyped since they were at age-grade level but people are still gradually readjusting their opinions of Kruis from being a club-level bloke to someone that can do a very good job at international level. it wasn't all that long ago that Kruis was mentioned in the same sort of breath as players like Slater, Kitchener etc and even after his debut vs NZ in 2014 where he missed a few tackles there was general scepticism about his future

I don't think we should underestimate or downplay the English attention to detail at lineout time, it's easily one of the strongest parts of our game and something that gives us a real edge over nearly every other team in the world. Kruis brings this in the same way that Parling did back in 2013

He's a scrummaging beast as well. Scrums on the right even with AWJ packing down alongside him.

Magnificent quad line. Superb example of Anglo-Dutch beef.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:15 pm 
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MrDominator wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
guys like Itoje and Launch have been hyped since they were at age-grade level but people are still gradually readjusting their opinions of Kruis from being a club-level bloke to someone that can do a very good job at international level. it wasn't all that long ago that Kruis was mentioned in the same sort of breath as players like Slater, Kitchener etc and even after his debut vs NZ in 2014 where he missed a few tackles there was general scepticism about his future

I don't think we should underestimate or downplay the English attention to detail at lineout time, it's easily one of the strongest parts of our game and something that gives us a real edge over nearly every other team in the world. Kruis brings this in the same way that Parling did back in 2013

He's a scrummaging beast as well. Scrums on the right even with AWJ packing down alongside him.

Magnificent quad line. Superb example of Anglo-Dutch beef.



Didn't Eddie say he was head and shoulders above the others as tight head lock with Itoje next best!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:35 pm 
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pjm1 wrote:
I think it's a toughie having our captain as lock given how close they all are. We're fortunate enough to have four world-class locks... it's insane. So the relative differences between whomever we pick and the bench (say) is only marginal. Harder to establish a captain from such a narrow margin of competence.

Whereas I'd say Farrell is head and shoulders our most leaderlike back, and also the first name on the teamsheet in terms of backs. Whether he plays at 10 or 12 is secondary, he's written down.

After Hartley is stepped aside, I'd hope Faz is given the armband.


Good point.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Madness wrote:
MrDominator wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
guys like Itoje and Launch have been hyped since they were at age-grade level but people are still gradually readjusting their opinions of Kruis from being a club-level bloke to someone that can do a very good job at international level. it wasn't all that long ago that Kruis was mentioned in the same sort of breath as players like Slater, Kitchener etc and even after his debut vs NZ in 2014 where he missed a few tackles there was general scepticism about his future

I don't think we should underestimate or downplay the English attention to detail at lineout time, it's easily one of the strongest parts of our game and something that gives us a real edge over nearly every other team in the world. Kruis brings this in the same way that Parling did back in 2013

He's a scrummaging beast as well. Scrums on the right even with AWJ packing down alongside him.

Magnificent quad line. Superb example of Anglo-Dutch beef.



Didn't Eddie say he was head and shoulders above the others as tight head lock with Itoje next best!


Yes. EJ said we missed him badly in the 6N. I buy that, considering we were out muscled at least twice.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Itoje scrummages at tight head over awj too. Both are freaks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:33 am 
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Perhaps the Martin Johnson comparisons can go back to bed now. Don't remember MJ shitting the bed that badly against NZ, or anyone really. Awful, awful game.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:42 am 
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I think the occasion got to him, but he is normally a fine, fine player.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:43 am 
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Yep he was terrible. Not sure he'll get another chance either.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:45 am 
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Hawk97 wrote:
Do you reckon Kruis can become our POC, or the next MJ, at all? He's already showing signs of it. Gatland named dropped him as a leader in the pack, he is imperious in the lineout, a brute in the physical stuff, carries well, is everywhere....Hope he stays injury free.


No, you're just being silly for no reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:47 am 
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George, Watson, Daly, Mako :thumbup:

Teo ... ok, good defence

Farrell, Kruis :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:47 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Perhaps the Martin Johnson comparisons can go back to bed now. Don't remember MJ shitting the bed that badly against NZ, or anyone really. Awful, awful game.


I've never seen Kruis play that badly ... just rubbish.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:53 am 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
George, Watson, Daly, Mako :thumbup:

Teo ... ok, good defence

Farrell, Kruis :thumbdown:

Te'o was good man, not sure he's what the Lions need at 12 but he played well. Farrell was average, not poor at all but not convinced he is fully fit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:05 am 
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Kruis was poor. Frustrating really. I've never been a massive fan of his but recognise that he can do well. Shades of Dublin in 2015 with his clearing out.

Agree that Te'o was fine if not necessarily the answer to the Lions' problems. Thought JD2 was better though.

Maro should definitely have started.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:12 am 
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fatcat wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Do you reckon Kruis can become our POC, or the next MJ, at all? He's already showing signs of it. Gatland named dropped him as a leader in the pack, he is imperious in the lineout, a brute in the physical stuff, carries well, is everywhere....Hope he stays injury free.


No, you're just being silly for no reason.


Oh come on, FC. One bad game. He's been near enough the consensus best Lion before this match.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:13 am 
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Hawk97 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Do you reckon Kruis can become our POC, or the next MJ, at all? He's already showing signs of it. Gatland named dropped him as a leader in the pack, he is imperious in the lineout, a brute in the physical stuff, carries well, is everywhere....Hope he stays injury free.


No, you're just being silly for no reason.


Oh come on, FC. One bad game. He's been near enough the consensus best Lion before this match.


Against weakened Super rugby teams. This was an international.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:13 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Do you reckon Kruis can become our POC, or the next MJ, at all? He's already showing signs of it. Gatland named dropped him as a leader in the pack, he is imperious in the lineout, a brute in the physical stuff, carries well, is everywhere....Hope he stays injury free.


No, you're just being silly for no reason.


Oh come on, FC. One bad game. He's been near enough the consensus best Lion before this match.


Against weakened Super rugby teams. This was an international.


Again, one bad game. He's looked immense every time he's pulled on the England jersey. The whole pack was minced today.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:20 am 
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Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:23 am 
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Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:52 am 
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Hawk97 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


Better scrum too. But in the loose Joe is better. Eddie said he wants the best set piece.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:56 am 
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Raggs wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


Better scrum too. But in the loose Joe is better. Eddie said he wants the best set piece.


He started Williams over Collier.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:59 am 
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Raggs wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


Better scrum too. But in the loose Joe is better. Eddie said he wants the best set piece.

Mahoney wrote an excellent post during the week talking about the different selection criteria of the NH teams and New Zealand where the men in black pick ball players above everything else. Tonight we saw that aptly demonstrated. The Lions bossed the line-out but it made little to no difference given how cheaply the ball was given away in open play.

I'm sounding too hard on Kruis. He's an excellent forward who had an off night and the Kiwis are very good at exposing opposition players' weaknesses.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:59 am 
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And? Who's to say Collier would have done better against the starting arg side? And Williams may lift and move better in the lineout.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


Better scrum too. But in the loose Joe is better. Eddie said he wants the best set piece.

Mahoney wrote an excellent post during the week talking about the different selection criteria of the NH teams and New Zealand where the men in black pick ball players above everything else. Tonight we saw that aptly demonstrated. The Lions bossed the line-out but it made little to no difference given how cheaply the ball was given away in open play.

I'm sounding too hard on Kruis. He's an excellent forward who had an off night and the Kiwis are very good at exposing opposition players' weaknesses.


Just a bad day at the office for Kruis, who's shown his mettle often enough. As mentioned elsewhere we have 4 of the very best locks vying for their places.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:41 pm 
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bealonian wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Kruis has always had pretty fairly ordinary hands in open play so I wasn't surprised to see him coughing up the ball when under the sort of pressure only the All Blacks can bring. He's England's starting lock because of his line-out prowess which the likes of Borthwick put above genuine ball players like Joe Launchbury.


He's more than just a lineout option.


Better scrum too. But in the loose Joe is better. Eddie said he wants the best set piece.

Mahoney wrote an excellent post during the week talking about the different selection criteria of the NH teams and New Zealand where the men in black pick ball players above everything else. Tonight we saw that aptly demonstrated. The Lions bossed the line-out but it made little to no difference given how cheaply the ball was given away in open play.

I'm sounding too hard on Kruis. He's an excellent forward who had an off night and the Kiwis are very good at exposing opposition players' weaknesses.


Just a bad day at the office for Kruis, who's shown his mettle often enough. As mentioned elsewhere we have 4 of the very best locks vying for their places.


What might end up seperating them is how they perform in the biggest games.

And whereas Lawes might be too stupid to feel the pressure, the opposite might prove to be the case with Kruis.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Whitelock and Retallick have the cheat codes on. You mention they pick ball players, but these guys can destroy things as well as play the ball. How is that fair?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:20 pm 
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He made 16 tackles and ran the lineout fairly well.

He dropped the ball a couple of times though and didn't have a chance to get at Whitelock and Retallick. In hindsight, decent shift, but telling mistakes at key times.

Without wanting to bang the drum, but looking at those who do well under pressure at the highest level, particularly at 10, whilst Ford's had a poor year at Bath, he looked good for England when it got going whereas I felt Farrell (probably not fit withstanding) didn't look natural at running the game at 10. Barrett was bloody good tonight. Nothing flashy, except for the pick up, but kicked his goals, attained good field position with big boots and stood in manfully at fullback when required.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
He made 16 tackles and ran the lineout fairly well.

He dropped the ball a couple of times though and didn't have a chance to get at Whitelock and Retallick. In hindsight, decent shift, but telling mistakes at key times.

Without wanting to bang the drum, but looking at those who do well under pressure at the highest level, particularly at 10, whilst Ford's had a poor year at Bath, he looked good for England when it got going whereas I felt Farrell (probably not fit withstanding) didn't look natural at running the game at 10. Barrett was bloody good tonight. Nothing flashy, except for the pick up, but kicked his goals, attained good field position with big boots and stood in manfully at fullback when required.


From memory, Kruis knocked on two passes . I think I saw Retallick knock one on as well, so we are talking fine margins in peoples' perspectives of how individual players performed.
The collective failure to dominate the breakdown was of greater concern - I'd like to see Hask on the bench in place of Warburton for the second test, he brings far more impact to the collision area.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:38 pm 
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So, JJ now can't defend because of one bump, and Kruis is dog shit for not having a barn stormer.

Love PR :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:47 pm 
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kruis carried like borthwick-I'm not saying he's a bad player after one weak game but fark me he looked poundshop compared to the kiwi locks.

Farrell still doesn't look like a 10, that attempted pass off his left hand was one of the shittest things I've seen for ages. Way below Ford's ability to make a side tick.

Watson could do with getting a ball in space, something a howley backline seems incapable of- but he still looks deadly if you can get the ball in his hands.

Daly- does he look like a centre playing on the wing? I don't know if it's knee jerk because he got a lot of shit ball standing still but i'd still rather see Jonny May's gas.

T'eo butchered a good chance by not passing but otherwise he's looked too good compared to his teammates- genuinely looks like a pro having a run out at a lower level. Defended and carried well again.


George, accurate at the lineout- looked a bit of a fatboy out there otherwise. Needs to sort his body out.

Sinkler- done well for himself on tour.

Itoje- not sure i expected miracles from the bench? Kiwi pair just a lot more physical.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
So, JJ now can't defend because of one bump, and Kruis is dog shit for not having a barn stormer.

Love PR :thumbup:

Not concerned. The England guys have carried across their form into the Lions and are all acquitting themselves very well indeed.
When you look at how many starters (and in which positions) it's something of an eye opener...both wings, centre and fly half (alongside the requisite forwards) is quite a validation.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
He made 16 tackles and ran the lineout fairly well.

He dropped the ball a couple of times though and didn't have a chance to get at Whitelock and Retallick. In hindsight, decent shift, but telling mistakes at key times.

Without wanting to bang the drum, but looking at those who do well under pressure at the highest level, particularly at 10, whilst Ford's had a poor year at Bath, he looked good for England when it got going whereas I felt Farrell (probably not fit withstanding) didn't look natural at running the game at 10. Barrett was bloody good tonight. Nothing flashy, except for the pick up, but kicked his goals, attained good field position with big boots and stood in manfully at fullback when required.


He gave away the ball a couple of times, missed a bunch of tackles, and gave away a couple of penalties. Let's not downplay it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:53 pm 
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I thought Teo slipped over?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:55 pm 
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pandion wrote:
I thought Teo slipped over?


He stepped back inside and slipped instead of squaring up and passing- not seen a replay but that's my memory of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:56 pm 
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DD - harsh on George. You don't make 17 tackles (second most) if you're not fit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:09 pm 
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On the positive side, did that NZ performance really really scare you? It didn't exactly make quiver in my boots at the thought of having to play them.

Eddie will see that the Lions' main pitfalls were discipline errors or just being sloppy, both of which you can work on. Up to 50 minutes the Lions were right in the game (incidentally around the time they took Mako off), and then they just made a catalogue of errors which meant they could never leave their own half.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:13 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
On the positive side, did that NZ performance really really scare you? It didn't exactly make quiver in my boots at the thought of having to play them.

Eddie will see that the Lions' main pitfalls were discipline errors or just being sloppy, both of which you can work on. Up to 50 minutes the Lions were right in the game (incidentally around the time they took Mako off), and then they just made a catalogue of errors which meant they could never leave their own half.


I trust Eddie to come up with a gameplan to at least run them close. I do not trust Gatland and Howley to do the same. A Jones team wouldn't have succumbed that meekly in the final quarter.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
englishchief wrote:
On the positive side, did that NZ performance really really scare you? It didn't exactly make quiver in my boots at the thought of having to play them.

Eddie will see that the Lions' main pitfalls were discipline errors or just being sloppy, both of which you can work on. Up to 50 minutes the Lions were right in the game (incidentally around the time they took Mako off), and then they just made a catalogue of errors which meant they could never leave their own half.


I trust Eddie to come up with a gameplan to at least run them close. I do not trust Gatland and Howley to do the same. A Jones team wouldn't have succumbed that meekly in the final quarter.


Exactly. They just crumbled, and before the second try for the AB's were right in the game.

Looks like Farrell at 12 for the foreseeable future as well. Eddie will have noted his slight errors at 10. Are we playing NZ at all before 2019 WC?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:23 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
On the positive side, did that NZ performance really really scare you? It didn't exactly make quiver in my boots at the thought of having to play them.

Eddie will see that the Lions' main pitfalls were discipline errors or just being sloppy, both of which you can work on. Up to 50 minutes the Lions were right in the game (incidentally around the time they took Mako off), and then they just made a catalogue of errors which meant they could never leave their own half.

Supposedly only England and NZ currently play at 100 metres per minute (was stated in a Canada game a couple of months back)

I still think we need to work the fringe defence much harder than the lions did to get any change. Keeping up the pace is one thing. Tieing in enough defenders to make the all blacks tire is a completely different issue.

The All blacks scramble defence and want to defend is tremendous.


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