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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:28 am 
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Like if Care plays and his kicking is shit and he flaps at breakdowns when the ball is there to be played I will give him a rocket same as everyone else, but no-one should make shit up to criticise players.

When people accuse Care of slowing the ball down it's not what he does with the ball in his hands that they're referring to :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:40 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I picked the last England match he started in, ovalball, seeing as you said his performances are mostly average at best but he was handy off the bench. Obviously picking a performance that people raved about - Australia - wouldn't have any hope of convincing you you might be wrong. So you judge him on his international performances because you only watch Quins when they're on TV (like they were against Saints), but it's then anal for me to actually spend a bit of time going through his last international start. OK. And I was making no judgement on quality, merely on what he did with ruck ball.

I'm sure you'd prefer it if I just accepted that you have this irrational and factually incorrect opinion of him but unfortunately I think facts work better. How do you think your precious Wasps scrummies would do if we took a similar look at them? I'd bet good money they would also take steps at times - I think every single scrum half in the world does.

You should watch the video I posted. You should probably also admit that when you said he takes two steps sideways every time, you were talking bollocks.

Care's currently having an excellent season, having really upped his game where he needed it, with his kicking. It may go back to shit, who knows. It may not. But one thing is undeniably true: stepping when passing has nothing to do with anything.


It'd be hard to compare Robson with Care at International level.................


Pointless comment. If it's a part of his game it'll appear at every level. If Robson does it at club level, then why wouldn't he do it at international level?

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I don't think there's anything irrational with trusting my own eyes - as to how often Care slows the attack with an unwarranted step.


But your eyes are provably wrong. This is the thing: you made this big claim and despite it being easily disproved you still haven't backed down on it, instead preferring to believe something happens far more regularly than it does. I'm not about to go through every match he's played, but so far I'm the one providing evidence and you're the one with your fingers in your ears. It's quite irrational to argue against evidence.

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But I hope you are right and that I am overly influenced by something he has now solved (even though some on here were defending it, possibly you, when it was an obvious problem to all). It looks like we'll be going into the RWC with the pair of them - and we won't win it if they haven't improved beyond what we've seen from either of them in the past.


22 from 23 is it now?

As for defending it, yes. Because it's painfully obvious that you don't understand what's happening when scrum halves don't pass immediately. Again, I urge you to watch the video I posted. We're well past the point where scrum halves just pass off the base all the time. Care has never been a player who always needed to step to pass. He's always been a player who'd make a short run every now and then, to draw defenders (as per the video). Some of his best performances came from doing that far more than he did against Samoa. People criticising him and other 9s in the past didn't understand that. There's a huge difference between a player who just ambles towards his own 10 and a player who makes a telling movement with the ball.

Youngs is having a fairly poor season, after excelling at times last season. However, when on form he brings a few things that none of our other 9s do - a combination of size, pace, and pinpoint box kicking. It's a good mix, particularly with how important a 9 is defensively, and it's a shame he's dropped off so badly. I quite like Robson but I think Eddie takes a long time to change his mind over players who he doesn't work with directly, and Robson's poorly timed habit of shitting the bed in pressure matches that Eddie happened to be at seems to have really made an impact. We obviously don't want Wigglesworth around, given how one dimensional he is. Simpson is pretty dreadful these days. Spencer doesn't start often enough and was poor last season when he got chances. Who else is there to seriously bother an international selector?

So... yeah. Youngs and Care it is. Whoever's in the best form starts. Both very experienced players who offer something that none of the domestic competition can. Both have flaws, same as nearly every 9 on the planet (Murray's really very good, and Smith's superb when he doesn't lose his head after being scragged a few times early on). It's a bloody difficult position to be good in every match.


You've worn me down. Your stats of the performance against the brilliant Samoans is clear evidence that Care is wonderful and all his steps (which, of course, he never actually takes) have a greater purpose than a no nothing like me could possibly conceive of, but a rugby genius like you can. 22/23 means we're dead set on course for the RWC and there's no issues with the front or backrow.

I'll sleep much better tonight now that you've opened my eyes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:49 am 
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Good lord that's some disingenuous bullshit. What a blustering spoofer you are :?

(Also it's "know-nothing" :lol: )


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:01 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Good lord that's some disingenuous bullshit. What a blustering spoofer you are :?



Aww shucks, you noticed it was a spoof. There's know :P getting one past you, is there...........


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:03 am 
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Tell me again how Joe Simpson is the better player and that Care nearly always takes two steps before passing - really hammer me with that awesome rugby nous of yours, you've got me on the ropes


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:18 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Tell me again how Joe Simpson is the better player and that Care nearly always takes two steps before passing - really hammer me with that awesome rugby nous of yours, you've got me on the ropes


Nah, I can't compete with your sheer genius and gargantuan Rugby intellect. Your in depth Samoan stats are just too overwhelming. All his previous 5/10 performances for England are in the distant past and he is now my most favourite Scrum Half. I can't even remember why he was dropped for Youngs - Eddie must have had a brain fart.

Such a relief that we no longer have an issue at Scrum Half.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:27 am 
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See it's funny because you actually made the comments I'm attributing to you but you've made up continent sized straw men in response...

I mean I even spelled out that the stats were no comment on quality, just behaviour, but hey you keep swinging


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:37 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
See it's funny because you actually made the comments I'm attributing to you but you've made up continent sized straw men in response...

I mean I even spelled out that the stats were no comment on quality, just behaviour, but hey you keep swinging


You do 'always' seem to take things rather literally...............

But hey ho - I do seriously hope you are right. I've got fed up with seeing our scrummies having a couple of good games, only to go back to their bad old ways shortly after - I now see their good games as the anomalies. I've lost faith in them.

Anyhows - I need to get some sleep - only managed 2 hours last night and couldn't have a lie in this morning.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:41 am 
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Oh, I make no assurances about our nines maintaining or regaining form :lol:

I had some hopes for the Exeter kids but they're not playing this season.

Good luck, not sleeping well myself either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 am 
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Could easily understand an argument for Robson over care at wasps, both have been on great form and are similar players. However the suggestion that Simpson is better than care is daft. He slows the ball down if it's anything but very good ball and the attack isn't well set, and if that's the case, he slows it right down.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:48 am 
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If care or youngs goes down who's next in line- Heinz?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:53 am 
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Eddie on record as saying that he didn't think Marcus Smith played that well. Bit harsh.

Hartley is still his main man though. Looks as though he's booked in for the 6N at the very least.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42547105


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:57 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
If care or youngs goes down who's next in line- Heinz?


I'd expect to see Wiggles to be honest, as depressing as that is.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:27 am 
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Apparently Eddie is keen on Ben Vellacott.

Personally I’d prefer Robson as our third choice 9, but Vellacott has been really impressive this season and it would be a massive waste to lose him to the Scots.

Also, unlike Maunder, he’s getting regular game time and has typically shone when given his opportunities.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:34 am 
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Has Maunder been injured? Chiefs’ website says he’s only played 22 minutes of rugby this season :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:09 am 
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Joost wrote:
Has Maunder been injured? Chiefs’ website says he’s only played 22 minutes of rugby this season :?

Nick White has established himself as Chiefs no 1 SH, his replacement of Chudley made a big difference v Tigers


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:11 am 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
Care's in very good form and I think it's fair to say he'd be first choice at Wasps - Young doesn't seem to have any trouble picking players who sometimes do daft shit with the ball. Simpson has an incredible set of wheels on him and a decent kicking game but has pretty much always been prone to epic meerkatting, 3rd choice seems right. Ben Youngs... look when he's on song he's tremendous, that 2015 test against France was outstanding, but his basics are way too ropey for me. His passes are frequently atrocious.

As long as it keeps working I don't really mind, but scrum half is an area where we just don't match up well against other teams a lot of the time. If Robson, who is in fantastic form at the moment, isn't the solution to that then fair enough, but persisting with Care and Youngs and only Care and Youngs doesn't look like it to me either.


I actually hate Simpson's kicking game. His box kicks are almost always too long - it's like he can only kick the ball one distance!

Care and Youngs won't change. Neither of them are great scrum halves, with Care the better passer and Youngs the better kicker (at least for box kicks).

Like many others, I can't see why Eddie won't give Robson a go.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:16 am 
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Yeah should really have said "massive box kick" rather than "decent kicking game". I agree it's often too long.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:17 am 
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...Apparently the problem with Robson is that his basic passing and kicking skills aren't good enough???

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... -world-cup


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:26 am 
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Robson did have a couple of poor games last year when he was being watched by Eddie, could be that Eddie has made his mind up and we know he can be somewhat stubborn. But one defeat in 2 years gives him a lot of credit in my mind. You have to think that injury will give him a chance at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:46 am 
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Scrumhead wrote:
Apparently Eddie is keen on Ben Vellacott.

Personally I’d prefer Robson as our third choice 9, but Vellacott has been really impressive this season and it would be a massive waste to lose him to the Scots.

Also, unlike Maunder, he’s getting regular game time and has typically shone when given his opportunities.


Vellacott has looked very impressive in the last few televised Glaws games I've watched - initially just as a dawning realisation that there was no drop off in performance when he replaced Heinz, then an appreciation of his sharpness round the break down. As quick as Maunder, but not tiny. Townsend , from memory , was slower and more of a distributor in the Wriglesworth manner.
( I'd still like to have seen Robson given a shot.)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:56 am 
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Madness wrote:
Robson did have a couple of poor games last year when he was being watched by Eddie, could be that Eddie has made his mind up and we know he can be somewhat stubborn. But one defeat in 2 years gives him a lot of credit in my mind. You have to think that injury will give him a chance at some point.


Must be it. But Care and Youngs have also had their air share of poor games - and all that happens is that hey get swapped around. Even if they are to remain as 1st choice for the matchday squad, it seems bizarre not to have given anyone else any real experience. It would be bad enough if one of them were to be injured - but they could easily both be.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 am 
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He's a funny fuc*er Jones isn't he? I'm not really inclined to criticise at the moment because I'm neither a professional coach or in receipt of his win record, but there are some players he just doesn't rate.

I assume shit loads of invisible (to fans) stuff plays into it like heavy duty stats, personality and temperament, performances in training, relationships with other players etc.

And you don't ever really know if he's playing with a straight bat.

The back row thing really interests me. He's been more inclined to use (or hold as reserve) our locks to cover those positions. There's clearly an issue with how highly he rates certain players.

Fair play to him though - he can recall Mike Tindall if we keep winning for all I care.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:05 am 
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Yeah it's tough to get too exercised after one loss in two years of rugby. But his selectorial approach with regard to certain positions is rather baffling.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:12 am 
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SamShark wrote:
He's a funny fuc*er Jones isn't he? I'm not really inclined to criticise at the moment because I'm neither a professional coach or in receipt of his win record, but there are some players he just doesn't rate.

I assume shit loads of invisible (to fans) stuff plays into it like heavy duty stats, personality and temperament, performances in training, relationships with other players etc.

And you don't ever really know if he's playing with a straight bat.

The back row thing really interests me. He's been more inclined to use (or hold as reserve) our locks to cover those positions. There's clearly an issue with how highly he rates certain players.

Fair play to him though - he can recall Mike Tindall if we keep winning for all I care.


Despite his 22/23 - I'm really not convinced by him.

There, I've said it.

No doubt he's done some good things - but things have worked out for him rather fortunately.

He seems to treading the familiar track of past England managers - getting more conservative with each game - and maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.

This 6N could be the litmus test.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:12 am 
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Scrum half is the position that I don't get the most. It's a hugely important position with regards to the teams attack and gameplan, and yet he's only given 1 other scrum half any gametime at all, and even that was 2 minutes (and that scrum half was likely never really 3rd choice, but more a youngster to check out). He's not even had a 3rd one regularly in camp, it's just bizarre.

Arguments over Haskell, Hartley, Armand etc, is opinions in personnel, but that 3rd scrum half (whoever he'd pick) just seems like a hugely risky oversight, especially since there's no way he goes to a world cup with just 2.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:16 am 
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Quote:
Despite his 22/23 - I'm really not convinced by him.

There, I've said it.

No doubt he's done some good things - but things have worked out for him rather fortunately.

He seems to treading the familiar track of past England managers - getting more conservative with each game - and maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.

This 6N could be the litmus test.


A bit harsh.

However it is quite hard to say how much is the players available and how much is the coach. Many said Woodward just got lucky with a golden generation.

Some adversity would be good in a way - we haven't actually seen how this team reacts to a couple of losses - more media criticism etc - as they have so rarely lost.

If the camp appears happy and the results are right then you have to big up the coach.

If he's a lucky coach all the better. Lancaster always seemed to just miss out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:18 am 
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maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.


I wouldn't go with that either.

He's shown a lot of faith in Cole but I don;t think you could level that elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:41 am 
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SamShark wrote:
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maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.


I wouldn't go with that either.

He's shown a lot of faith in Cole but I don;t think you could level that elsewhere.


Possibly at Hartley also. I don’t buy the schtick that Care and Youngs aren’t international quality 9s and Robson (or anyone else available) is being unjustly omitted from the 23. It would be genuinely interesting to find out who EJ sees as 3rd choice 9 and what he is trying to achieve by not adding one to the squad. My theory is that he’s trying to give motivation to the other 9s in the AP to work like hell on their games and seeing who emerges as the outstanding candidate, but who knows.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:42 am 
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Care's box-kicking has always been a lottery slightly biased towards the shittier end of quality

But his most annoying flaw is his consistently floaty/loopy passes. They aren't inaccurate but they often take an age to reach their target. It's fine when an opposition is tiring or on the back foot but against a fresh team it's a recipe for either hospital passes or intercepts


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:22 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
SamShark wrote:
He's a funny fuc*er Jones isn't he? I'm not really inclined to criticise at the moment because I'm neither a professional coach or in receipt of his win record, but there are some players he just doesn't rate.

I assume shit loads of invisible (to fans) stuff plays into it like heavy duty stats, personality and temperament, performances in training, relationships with other players etc.

And you don't ever really know if he's playing with a straight bat.

The back row thing really interests me. He's been more inclined to use (or hold as reserve) our locks to cover those positions. There's clearly an issue with how highly he rates certain players.

Fair play to him though - he can recall Mike Tindall if we keep winning for all I care.


Despite his 22/23 - I'm really not convinced by him.

There, I've said it.

No doubt he's done some good things - but things have worked out for him rather fortunately.

He seems to treading the familiar track of past England managers - getting more conservative with each game - and maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.

This 6N could be the litmus test.


Who is on your list?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:32 pm 
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I don't agree that Eddie is getting more conservative with each game either. If anything he seems to be pushing the boat out more as time goes on.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Hartley, Cole, Hask and perhaps you could throw in the incumbent FB and SH, although it might just be that they're shiit rather than being past it.

This scrum half issue is really starting to get worrying. There is no reason not to pick Robson, unless he's some sort of pariah within the England camp (which I highly doubt, seems like a nice guy).

Some of Eddie's selections are just completely baffling. If it doesn't pay off in the 6N, I hope he swallows his pride and makes the right picks for the next squad training sessions.

Smith is the real day by the way. Obviously Ford/Faz are going to be the FH up to and including the 2019 RWC, but I genuinely think Smith could get ahead of them after that. It's rare you see kids that young playing so maturely and standing out with their talent. Reminds me of another FH who came through around 20 years ago now....


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Who was the 3rd SH during the Dawson and Bracken era - was it always Gomersall?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:40 pm 
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englishchief wrote:

Smith is the real day by the way. Obviously Ford/Faz are going to be the FH up to and including the 2019 RWC, but I genuinely think Smith could get ahead of them after that. It's rare you see kids that young playing so maturely and standing out with their talent. Reminds me of another FH who came through around 20 years ago now....


A word of warning is to look at Cipriani who also seemed to be destined for greatness.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:41 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Who was the 3rd SH during the Dawson and Bracken era - was it always Gomersall?


Arguably Austin Healey for a period? Nick Duncombe and Harry Ellis were also around towards the end of Dawson’s international career.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Talking of scrum halves, Sarries have signed Nick Stirzaker on loan from the Rebels. Anyone?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:45 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Hartley, Cole, Hask and perhaps you could throw in the incumbent FB and SH, although it might just be that they're shiit rather than being past it.

This scrum half issue is really starting to get worrying. There is no reason not to pick Robson, unless he's some sort of pariah within the England camp (which I highly doubt, seems like a nice guy).

Some of Eddie's selections are just completely baffling. If it doesn't pay off in the 6N, I hope he swallows his pride and makes the right picks for the next squad training sessions.

Smith is the real day by the way. Obviously Ford/Faz are going to be the FH up to and including the 2019 RWC, but I genuinely think Smith could get ahead of them after that. It's rare you see kids that young playing so maturely and standing out with their talent. Reminds me of another FH who came through around 20 years ago now....


Alex King?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Plastic Sarrie wrote:
Talking of scrum halves, Sarries have signed Nick Stirzaker on loan from the Rebels. Anyone?


When I watched the super rugby he was excellent-
Best 9 in oz easy. Pretty sure he's England qualified, no idea if he's been capped?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:48 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Plastic Sarrie wrote:
Talking of scrum halves, Sarries have signed Nick Stirzaker on loan from the Rebels. Anyone?


When I watched the super rugby he was excellent-
Best 9 in oz easy. Pretty sure he's England qualified, no idea if he's been capped?


Very poachy name though.

I prefer poaching people with more English sounding names.


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