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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Because it's fun, I'm watching the replay now...

Visser nearly scores after an attack where Care twice in a row passes off the base with no steps (one off slow ball, one quickly to put Luamanu in a bit of space).

Quins win a penalty after the lineout. Quins catch the ball, Care passes with no steps. Next ruck, Care takes a few steps to draw the defence and passes. Next ruck, Care passes directly off the base because Brown is already in space.

Etc, etc. This continues as Quins march upfield. Smith puts in a lovely chip ahead after charging onto a pass off the base by Care, Quins score in the next phase...

I won't bother doing this for the whole match, but yeah, it's bollocks to say he doesn't pass without taking steps.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:49 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
But was pretty poor in his recent england start

Actually, it wasn't. He came in for criticism then when there was some discussion about it a lot of people went "er yeah actually not really sure what Care did wrong"

ovalball wrote:
The intercepts are because he doesn't get the ball away quickly enough - giving the defence a couple of paces advantage.


No, that's total bollocks. The intercepts are because he's trying to play flat. He's not getting picked off passing to the 10, he's getting picked off when trying to put a runner through a midfield hole, something you should do flat but it can be high risk.

You have a really outdated view of what scrumhalves can do these days, as well as a very one-eyed view of what Care does and doesn't do.

No doubt that'll get thrown back in my face but hey, I'm more than willing to talk about what he doesn't do well...


How do you conclude that I have an outdated view - I've only expressed some areas of where I think he has issues. I haven't pronounced my whole SH philosophy FFS. I realise he's one of your pet players - but even you should recognise his limitations at international level - those limitations are why Youngs gets the nod most of the time.

If you are going to operate that flat you need to get that pass away damned quick - he still takes that extra step far too often - so either it is a flaw in his game, or he's making an error in judgement as to when he should do it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:56 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
How do you conclude that I have an outdated view - I've only expressed some areas of where I think he has issues. I haven't pronounced my whole SH philosophy FFS.


Because back in the day, 9s would only pass off the base, and anyone who had to take steps to pass was a poor scrum half. Rugby has moved on - scrumhalves have far more options now and players like Care can cause havoc with a short run and create space for other people. Care does pass from the base quite often, but he also has a little jog quite often - you see it as a flaw, but it really isn't.

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I realise he's one of your pet players - but even you should recognise his limitations at international level - those limitations are why Youngs gets the nod most of the time.


Mate, you don't get to accuse me of that and bang on about international level when you claimed he'd be third/fourth choice at Wasps ffs :lol: Care's limitations have never been about taking steps. They've been, at various times:

* Slowing ball down too often (his early days)
* Forcing passes / trying the flash stuff when it's not on (his early/middle days)
* Box kicking (middle/late period of his career)

What he's brilliant at is challenging defences, acting as a secondary playmaker, and scoring tries. Part of that is... because of how he runs from 9 :shock:

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If you are going to operate that flat you need to get that pass away damned quick - he still takes that extra step far too often - so either it is a flaw in his game, or he's making an error in judgement as to when he should do it.


You've jumped on this without understanding the problem. Clearly it's an error when he throws an intercept, but it's nothing to do with "getting that pass away damned quick"! It's everything to do with challenging the defence and picking the right pass, or in some cases knowing when not to pass. Passing sooner isn't really an option here. Again, it has zilch to do with your pet peeve.

Anyway - simply watching him play will show you you're talking monumental amounts of cock, so there's that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:03 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
How do you conclude that I have an outdated view - I've only expressed some areas of where I think he has issues. I haven't pronounced my whole SH philosophy FFS.


Because back in the day, 9s would only pass off the base, and anyone who had to take steps to pass was a poor scrum half. Rugby has moved on - scrumhalves have far more options now and players like Care can cause havoc with a short run and create space for other people. Care does pass from the base quite often, but he also has a little jog quite often - you see it as a flaw, but it really isn't.

Quote:
I realise he's one of your pet players - but even you should recognise his limitations at international level - those limitations are why Youngs gets the nod most of the time.


Mate, you don't get to accuse me of that and bang on about international level when you claimed he'd be third/fourth choice at Wasps ffs :lol: Care's limitations have never been about taking steps. They've been, at various times:

* Slowing ball down too often (his early days)
* Forcing passes / trying the flash stuff when it's not on (his early/middle days)
* Box kicking (middle/late period of his career)

What he's brilliant at is challenging defences, acting as a secondary playmaker, and scoring tries. Part of that is... because of how he runs from 9 :shock:

Quote:
If you are going to operate that flat you need to get that pass away damned quick - he still takes that extra step far too often - so either it is a flaw in his game, or he's making an error in judgement as to when he should do it.


You've jumped on this without understanding the problem. Clearly it's an error when he throws an intercept, but it's nothing to do with "getting that pass away damned quick"! It's everything to do with challenging the defence and picking the right pass, or in some cases knowing when not to pass. Passing sooner isn't really an option here. Again, it has zilch to do with your pet peeve.

Anyway - simply watching him play will show you you're talking monumental amounts of cock, so there's that.


I admit that I don't see a lot of him play for Quins, just when they are on TV - so I judge him on his international performances - which are mostly average at best - I also agree with his other faults you pointed out - he obviously has many. Handy off the Bench though, when defences are tiring and he has that extra bit of time.

SH remains an issue for England - neither of the incumbents are good enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:03 am 
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:roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:13 am 
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You certainly can still have the 9 play a touch and away game, but it's not all down to the 9. You'll need the ball carried into contact such it can be presented quickly, the ball actually then needs to be presented quickly such it can be played quickly and protected, but protected without those entering the ruck getting in the way of the ball and/or halfback, the halfback needs to be up with play, the receiving options need to be up with play and ready/wanting the ball, and the 9 needs to get their footwork right approaching the ball else they lose too much time and take too many steps after picking up the ball. This is all more possible now it's harder to interfere with a 9, but that's not to say players running with the ball at 9 as both Youngs are Care do to attract defenders is no longer a la mode.

Sometimes when 9s take steps it's down to looking to engage the defence, sometimes it's correcting footwork (sometimes that's their fault and sometimes the ruck is a mess), sometimes it's a technical weakness that makes passing feel easier, sometimes they're under pressure from the defence and losing the ball in a handling error doesn't help, sometimes they're tired, and sometimes the options aren't ready outside or calling for the ball. Both Care and Youngs sometimes take steps they don't need, but sometimes the steps are for other and good reasons. They're not as good as Aaron Smith at touch and away, but too they have issues in the rest of their side which Smith doesn't have to put up with.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:15 am 
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piquant wrote:
You certainly can still have the 9 play a touch and away game, but it's not all down to the 9. You'll need the ball carried into contact such it can be presented quickly, the ball actually then needs to be presented quickly such it can be played quickly and protected, but protected without those entering the ruck getting in the way of the ball and/or halfback, the halfback needs to be up with play, the receiving options need to be up with play and ready/wanting the ball, and the 9 needs to get their footwork right approaching the ball else they lose too much time and take too many steps after picking up the ball. This is all more possible now it's harder to interfere with a 9, but that's not to say players running with the ball at 9 as both Youngs are Care do to attract defenders is no longer a la mode.

Sometimes when 9s take steps it's down to looking to engage the defence, sometimes it's correcting footwork (sometimes that's their fault and sometimes the ruck is a mess), sometimes it's a technical weakness that makes passing feel easier, sometimes they're under pressure from the defence and losing the ball in a handling error doesn't help, sometimes they're tired, and sometimes the options aren't ready outside or calling for the ball. Both Care and Youngs sometimes take steps they don't need, but sometimes the steps are for other and good reasons. They're not as good as Aaron Smith at touch and away, but too they have issues in the rest of their side which Smith doesn't have to put up with.


Yes - our presentation/support at the breakdown is another of my pet peeves with the England side.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:25 am 
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ovalball wrote:
piquant wrote:
You certainly can still have the 9 play a touch and away game, but it's not all down to the 9. You'll need the ball carried into contact such it can be presented quickly, the ball actually then needs to be presented quickly such it can be played quickly and protected, but protected without those entering the ruck getting in the way of the ball and/or halfback, the halfback needs to be up with play, the receiving options need to be up with play and ready/wanting the ball, and the 9 needs to get their footwork right approaching the ball else they lose too much time and take too many steps after picking up the ball. This is all more possible now it's harder to interfere with a 9, but that's not to say players running with the ball at 9 as both Youngs are Care do to attract defenders is no longer a la mode.

Sometimes when 9s take steps it's down to looking to engage the defence, sometimes it's correcting footwork (sometimes that's their fault and sometimes the ruck is a mess), sometimes it's a technical weakness that makes passing feel easier, sometimes they're under pressure from the defence and losing the ball in a handling error doesn't help, sometimes they're tired, and sometimes the options aren't ready outside or calling for the ball. Both Care and Youngs sometimes take steps they don't need, but sometimes the steps are for other and good reasons. They're not as good as Aaron Smith at touch and away, but too they have issues in the rest of their side which Smith doesn't have to put up with.


Yes - our presentation/support at the breakdown is another of my pet peeves with the England side.


Unless you sort that if you ask the 9 to move the ball quickly without engaging the defence then you're likely as the saying goes to be shoveling shit. The amount of extra intensity the 9 needs to bring once presentation is slowed to recoup the difference will see even the insanely fit ones like Gregan blowing out of their arse after just a few phases, you're looking for say 2 seconds from ball going dead to hitting the receiver in an ideal world, much faster and you'll start to stress attack never mind defence on a multiphase play, and unsupported high error plays aren't a solution, and if you're down (or up) at 3 second + rucks it's a tough ask to get the 9s to solve that, though it's entirely fair to be looking at the 9s to be shaving some fraction of a second in many instances


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:33 am 
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I'm going to be a bit Raggs about this.

As you only watch international rugby, let's check Care's start against Samoa.

First pass, straight from the base :)

I've tried to mark this as harshly as possible. If he takes a single step towards the person he's trying to pass to and isn't running it, then it's "steps and passes". That's 3/5 ones I've marked down. If he passes from a stable base, it's from the base.

Rucks passes:
From the base: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Draw defence before passing: 1 1 1 1
Steps then passes: 1 1 1 1 1
Dummy & Snipe: 1

That's the first half.

IMO, he was playing a bit conservatively, but that's overwhelmingly swinging towards Care passing straight from the ruck without taking a step.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with the idea that he doesn't "take two steps sideways, every time, before releasing ball". He took two steps twice in that half.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:39 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
I'm going to be a bit Raggs about this.

As you only watch international rugby, let's check Care's start against Samoa.

First pass, straight from the base :)

I've tried to mark this as harshly as possible. If he takes a single step towards the person he's trying to pass to and isn't running it, then it's "steps and passes". That's 3/5 ones I've marked down. If he passes from a stable base, it's from the base.

Rucks passes:
From the base: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Draw defence before passing: 1 1 1 1
Steps then passes: 1 1 1 1 1
Dummy & Snipe: 1

That's the first half.

IMO, he was playing a bit conservatively, but that's overwhelmingly swinging towards Care passing straight from the ruck without taking a step.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with the idea that he doesn't "take two steps sideways, every time, before releasing ball". He took two steps twice in that half.


Who said I only watch International Rugby :x

so, that's 9 occasions he held the ball before passing. But the stat means little without seeing the context of what was happening at the time.

edit - and it's Samoa - so not a great example.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:41 am 
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ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I'm going to be a bit Raggs about this.

As you only watch international rugby, let's check Care's start against Samoa.

First pass, straight from the base :)

I've tried to mark this as harshly as possible. If he takes a single step towards the person he's trying to pass to and isn't running it, then it's "steps and passes". That's 3/5 ones I've marked down. If he passes from a stable base, it's from the base.

Rucks passes:
From the base: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Draw defence before passing: 1 1 1 1
Steps then passes: 1 1 1 1 1
Dummy & Snipe: 1

That's the first half.

IMO, he was playing a bit conservatively, but that's overwhelmingly swinging towards Care passing straight from the ruck without taking a step.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with the idea that he doesn't "take two steps sideways, every time, before releasing ball". He took two steps twice in that half.


Who said I only watch International Rugby :x

so, that's 9 occasions he held the ball before passing. But the stat means little without seeing the context of what was happening at the time.


It means a lot when you made a grand claim that got proven to be total bollocks, ovalball. Let's address that first, eh?

As for the ones where he ran at the defence, on nearly every occasion it gave a teammate space (hence "drawing the defence"). When I say I think you've got a really outdated view of how a 9 should play, this is exactly what I meant - you seem to be claiming that any time the 9 doesn't pass immediately it's a negative thing. This is poppycock.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:57 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I'm going to be a bit Raggs about this.

As you only watch international rugby, let's check Care's start against Samoa.

First pass, straight from the base :)

I've tried to mark this as harshly as possible. If he takes a single step towards the person he's trying to pass to and isn't running it, then it's "steps and passes". That's 3/5 ones I've marked down. If he passes from a stable base, it's from the base.

Rucks passes:
From the base: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Draw defence before passing: 1 1 1 1
Steps then passes: 1 1 1 1 1
Dummy & Snipe: 1

That's the first half.

IMO, he was playing a bit conservatively, but that's overwhelmingly swinging towards Care passing straight from the ruck without taking a step.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with the idea that he doesn't "take two steps sideways, every time, before releasing ball". He took two steps twice in that half.


Who said I only watch International Rugby :x

so, that's 9 occasions he held the ball before passing. But the stat means little without seeing the context of what was happening at the time.


It means a lot when you made a grand claim that got proven to be total bollocks, ovalball. Let's address that first, eh?

As for the ones where he ran at the defence, on nearly every occasion it gave a teammate space (hence "drawing the defence"). When I say I think you've got a really outdated view of how a 9 should play, this is exactly what I meant - you seem to be claiming that any time the 9 doesn't pass immediately it's a negative thing. This is poppycock.


Lots of words being put in my mouth here (like only watching International Rugby !!). For me he does it far too often and it often has a negative impact when doing so. I'm not anal enough to trawl through a game against Samoa (not a great game for an analysis of quality). I do, however, know what I've seen many times from him.

Is he rubbish - of course not. Does he have good games, of course he does. But, on the whole, in the international arena, he has been found wanting - and too slow at the breakdown, too often taking a step or two to get the pass away.

Is he any worse than Youngs - of the two of them, the one who doesn't start always looks better.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:03 am 
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I picked the last England match he started in, ovalball, seeing as you said his performances are mostly average at best but he was handy off the bench. Obviously picking a performance that people raved about - Australia - wouldn't have any hope of convincing you you might be wrong. So you judge him on his international performances because you only watch Quins when they're on TV (like they were against Saints), but it's then anal for me to actually spend a bit of time going through his last international start. OK. And I was making no judgement on quality, merely on what he did with ruck ball.

I'm sure you'd prefer it if I just accepted that you have this irrational and factually incorrect opinion of him but unfortunately I think facts work better. How do you think your precious Wasps scrummies would do if we took a similar look at them? I'd bet good money they would also take steps at times - I think every single scrum half in the world does.

You should watch the video I posted. You should probably also admit that when you said he takes two steps sideways every time, you were talking bollocks.

Care's currently having an excellent season, having really upped his game where he needed it, with his kicking. It may go back to shit, who knows. It may not. But one thing is undeniably true: stepping when passing has nothing to do with anything. It's a shit and lazy criticism that runs contrary to the truth and displays a lack of understanding of the 9's role in modern rugby.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:14 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
I picked the last England match he started in, ovalball, seeing as you said his performances are mostly average at best but he was handy off the bench. Obviously picking a performance that people raved about - Australia - wouldn't have any hope of convincing you you might be wrong. So you judge him on his international performances because you only watch Quins when they're on TV (like they were against Saints), but it's then anal for me to actually spend a bit of time going through his last international start. OK. And I was making no judgement on quality, merely on what he did with ruck ball.

I'm sure you'd prefer it if I just accepted that you have this irrational and factually incorrect opinion of him but unfortunately I think facts work better. How do you think your precious Wasps scrummies would do if we took a similar look at them? I'd bet good money they would also take steps at times - I think every single scrum half in the world does.

You should watch the video I posted. You should probably also admit that when you said he takes two steps sideways every time, you were talking bollocks.

Care's currently having an excellent season, having really upped his game where he needed it, with his kicking. It may go back to shit, who knows. It may not. But one thing is undeniably true: stepping when passing has nothing to do with anything.


It'd be hard to compare Robson with Care at International level.................

I don't think there's anything irrational with trusting my own eyes - as to how often Care slows the attack with an unwarranted step.

But I hope you are right and that I am overly influenced by something he has now solved (even though some on here were defending it, possibly you, when it was an obvious problem to all). It looks like we'll be going into the RWC with the pair of them - and we won't win it if they haven't improved beyond what we've seen from either of them in the past.

Mind you, there's other issues/players that, if not solved, will stop us before they even get to the ball..


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:26 am 
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ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I picked the last England match he started in, ovalball, seeing as you said his performances are mostly average at best but he was handy off the bench. Obviously picking a performance that people raved about - Australia - wouldn't have any hope of convincing you you might be wrong. So you judge him on his international performances because you only watch Quins when they're on TV (like they were against Saints), but it's then anal for me to actually spend a bit of time going through his last international start. OK. And I was making no judgement on quality, merely on what he did with ruck ball.

I'm sure you'd prefer it if I just accepted that you have this irrational and factually incorrect opinion of him but unfortunately I think facts work better. How do you think your precious Wasps scrummies would do if we took a similar look at them? I'd bet good money they would also take steps at times - I think every single scrum half in the world does.

You should watch the video I posted. You should probably also admit that when you said he takes two steps sideways every time, you were talking bollocks.

Care's currently having an excellent season, having really upped his game where he needed it, with his kicking. It may go back to shit, who knows. It may not. But one thing is undeniably true: stepping when passing has nothing to do with anything.


It'd be hard to compare Robson with Care at International level.................


Pointless comment. If it's a part of his game it'll appear at every level. If Robson does it at club level, then why wouldn't he do it at international level?

Quote:
I don't think there's anything irrational with trusting my own eyes - as to how often Care slows the attack with an unwarranted step.


But your eyes are provably wrong. This is the thing: you made this big claim and despite it being easily disproved you still haven't backed down on it, instead preferring to believe something happens far more regularly than it does. I'm not about to go through every match he's played, but so far I'm the one providing evidence and you're the one with your fingers in your ears. It's quite irrational to argue against evidence.

Quote:
But I hope you are right and that I am overly influenced by something he has now solved (even though some on here were defending it, possibly you, when it was an obvious problem to all). It looks like we'll be going into the RWC with the pair of them - and we won't win it if they haven't improved beyond what we've seen from either of them in the past.


22 from 23 is it now?

As for defending it, yes. Because it's painfully obvious that you don't understand what's happening when scrum halves don't pass immediately. Again, I urge you to watch the video I posted. We're well past the point where scrum halves just pass off the base all the time. Care has never been a player who always needed to step to pass. He's always been a player who'd make a short run every now and then, to draw defenders (as per the video). Some of his best performances came from doing that far more than he did against Samoa. People criticising him and other 9s in the past didn't understand that. There's a huge difference between a player who just ambles towards his own 10 and a player who makes a telling movement with the ball.

Youngs is having a fairly poor season, after excelling at times last season. However, when on form he brings a few things that none of our other 9s do - a combination of size, pace, and pinpoint box kicking. It's a good mix, particularly with how important a 9 is defensively, and it's a shame he's dropped off so badly. I quite like Robson but I think Eddie takes a long time to change his mind over players who he doesn't work with directly, and Robson's poorly timed habit of shitting the bed in pressure matches that Eddie happened to be at seems to have really made an impact. We obviously don't want Wigglesworth around, given how one dimensional he is. Simpson is pretty dreadful these days. Spencer doesn't start often enough and was poor last season when he got chances. Who else is there to seriously bother an international selector?

So... yeah. Youngs and Care it is. Whoever's in the best form starts. Both very experienced players who offer something that none of the domestic competition can. Both have flaws, same as nearly every 9 on the planet (Murray's really very good, and Smith's superb when he doesn't lose his head after being scragged a few times early on). It's a bloody difficult position to be good in every match.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:28 am 
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Like if Care plays and his kicking is shit and he flaps at breakdowns when the ball is there to be played I will give him a rocket same as everyone else, but no-one should make shit up to criticise players.

When people accuse Care of slowing the ball down it's not what he does with the ball in his hands that they're referring to :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:40 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I picked the last England match he started in, ovalball, seeing as you said his performances are mostly average at best but he was handy off the bench. Obviously picking a performance that people raved about - Australia - wouldn't have any hope of convincing you you might be wrong. So you judge him on his international performances because you only watch Quins when they're on TV (like they were against Saints), but it's then anal for me to actually spend a bit of time going through his last international start. OK. And I was making no judgement on quality, merely on what he did with ruck ball.

I'm sure you'd prefer it if I just accepted that you have this irrational and factually incorrect opinion of him but unfortunately I think facts work better. How do you think your precious Wasps scrummies would do if we took a similar look at them? I'd bet good money they would also take steps at times - I think every single scrum half in the world does.

You should watch the video I posted. You should probably also admit that when you said he takes two steps sideways every time, you were talking bollocks.

Care's currently having an excellent season, having really upped his game where he needed it, with his kicking. It may go back to shit, who knows. It may not. But one thing is undeniably true: stepping when passing has nothing to do with anything.


It'd be hard to compare Robson with Care at International level.................


Pointless comment. If it's a part of his game it'll appear at every level. If Robson does it at club level, then why wouldn't he do it at international level?

Quote:
I don't think there's anything irrational with trusting my own eyes - as to how often Care slows the attack with an unwarranted step.


But your eyes are provably wrong. This is the thing: you made this big claim and despite it being easily disproved you still haven't backed down on it, instead preferring to believe something happens far more regularly than it does. I'm not about to go through every match he's played, but so far I'm the one providing evidence and you're the one with your fingers in your ears. It's quite irrational to argue against evidence.

Quote:
But I hope you are right and that I am overly influenced by something he has now solved (even though some on here were defending it, possibly you, when it was an obvious problem to all). It looks like we'll be going into the RWC with the pair of them - and we won't win it if they haven't improved beyond what we've seen from either of them in the past.


22 from 23 is it now?

As for defending it, yes. Because it's painfully obvious that you don't understand what's happening when scrum halves don't pass immediately. Again, I urge you to watch the video I posted. We're well past the point where scrum halves just pass off the base all the time. Care has never been a player who always needed to step to pass. He's always been a player who'd make a short run every now and then, to draw defenders (as per the video). Some of his best performances came from doing that far more than he did against Samoa. People criticising him and other 9s in the past didn't understand that. There's a huge difference between a player who just ambles towards his own 10 and a player who makes a telling movement with the ball.

Youngs is having a fairly poor season, after excelling at times last season. However, when on form he brings a few things that none of our other 9s do - a combination of size, pace, and pinpoint box kicking. It's a good mix, particularly with how important a 9 is defensively, and it's a shame he's dropped off so badly. I quite like Robson but I think Eddie takes a long time to change his mind over players who he doesn't work with directly, and Robson's poorly timed habit of shitting the bed in pressure matches that Eddie happened to be at seems to have really made an impact. We obviously don't want Wigglesworth around, given how one dimensional he is. Simpson is pretty dreadful these days. Spencer doesn't start often enough and was poor last season when he got chances. Who else is there to seriously bother an international selector?

So... yeah. Youngs and Care it is. Whoever's in the best form starts. Both very experienced players who offer something that none of the domestic competition can. Both have flaws, same as nearly every 9 on the planet (Murray's really very good, and Smith's superb when he doesn't lose his head after being scragged a few times early on). It's a bloody difficult position to be good in every match.


You've worn me down. Your stats of the performance against the brilliant Samoans is clear evidence that Care is wonderful and all his steps (which, of course, he never actually takes) have a greater purpose than a no nothing like me could possibly conceive of, but a rugby genius like you can. 22/23 means we're dead set on course for the RWC and there's no issues with the front or backrow.

I'll sleep much better tonight now that you've opened my eyes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:49 am 
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Good lord that's some disingenuous bullshit. What a blustering spoofer you are :?

(Also it's "know-nothing" :lol: )


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:01 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Good lord that's some disingenuous bullshit. What a blustering spoofer you are :?



Aww shucks, you noticed it was a spoof. There's know :P getting one past you, is there...........


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:03 am 
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Tell me again how Joe Simpson is the better player and that Care nearly always takes two steps before passing - really hammer me with that awesome rugby nous of yours, you've got me on the ropes


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:18 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Tell me again how Joe Simpson is the better player and that Care nearly always takes two steps before passing - really hammer me with that awesome rugby nous of yours, you've got me on the ropes


Nah, I can't compete with your sheer genius and gargantuan Rugby intellect. Your in depth Samoan stats are just too overwhelming. All his previous 5/10 performances for England are in the distant past and he is now my most favourite Scrum Half. I can't even remember why he was dropped for Youngs - Eddie must have had a brain fart.

Such a relief that we no longer have an issue at Scrum Half.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:27 am 
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See it's funny because you actually made the comments I'm attributing to you but you've made up continent sized straw men in response...

I mean I even spelled out that the stats were no comment on quality, just behaviour, but hey you keep swinging


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:37 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
See it's funny because you actually made the comments I'm attributing to you but you've made up continent sized straw men in response...

I mean I even spelled out that the stats were no comment on quality, just behaviour, but hey you keep swinging


You do 'always' seem to take things rather literally...............

But hey ho - I do seriously hope you are right. I've got fed up with seeing our scrummies having a couple of good games, only to go back to their bad old ways shortly after - I now see their good games as the anomalies. I've lost faith in them.

Anyhows - I need to get some sleep - only managed 2 hours last night and couldn't have a lie in this morning.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:41 am 
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Oh, I make no assurances about our nines maintaining or regaining form :lol:

I had some hopes for the Exeter kids but they're not playing this season.

Good luck, not sleeping well myself either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 am 
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Could easily understand an argument for Robson over care at wasps, both have been on great form and are similar players. However the suggestion that Simpson is better than care is daft. He slows the ball down if it's anything but very good ball and the attack isn't well set, and if that's the case, he slows it right down.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:48 am 
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If care or youngs goes down who's next in line- Heinz?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:53 am 
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Eddie on record as saying that he didn't think Marcus Smith played that well. Bit harsh.

Hartley is still his main man though. Looks as though he's booked in for the 6N at the very least.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42547105


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:57 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
If care or youngs goes down who's next in line- Heinz?


I'd expect to see Wiggles to be honest, as depressing as that is.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:27 am 
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Apparently Eddie is keen on Ben Vellacott.

Personally I’d prefer Robson as our third choice 9, but Vellacott has been really impressive this season and it would be a massive waste to lose him to the Scots.

Also, unlike Maunder, he’s getting regular game time and has typically shone when given his opportunities.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:34 am 
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Has Maunder been injured? Chiefs’ website says he’s only played 22 minutes of rugby this season :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:09 am 
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Joost wrote:
Has Maunder been injured? Chiefs’ website says he’s only played 22 minutes of rugby this season :?

Nick White has established himself as Chiefs no 1 SH, his replacement of Chudley made a big difference v Tigers


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:11 am 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
Care's in very good form and I think it's fair to say he'd be first choice at Wasps - Young doesn't seem to have any trouble picking players who sometimes do daft shit with the ball. Simpson has an incredible set of wheels on him and a decent kicking game but has pretty much always been prone to epic meerkatting, 3rd choice seems right. Ben Youngs... look when he's on song he's tremendous, that 2015 test against France was outstanding, but his basics are way too ropey for me. His passes are frequently atrocious.

As long as it keeps working I don't really mind, but scrum half is an area where we just don't match up well against other teams a lot of the time. If Robson, who is in fantastic form at the moment, isn't the solution to that then fair enough, but persisting with Care and Youngs and only Care and Youngs doesn't look like it to me either.


I actually hate Simpson's kicking game. His box kicks are almost always too long - it's like he can only kick the ball one distance!

Care and Youngs won't change. Neither of them are great scrum halves, with Care the better passer and Youngs the better kicker (at least for box kicks).

Like many others, I can't see why Eddie won't give Robson a go.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:16 am 
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Yeah should really have said "massive box kick" rather than "decent kicking game". I agree it's often too long.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:17 am 
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...Apparently the problem with Robson is that his basic passing and kicking skills aren't good enough???

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... -world-cup


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:26 am 
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Robson did have a couple of poor games last year when he was being watched by Eddie, could be that Eddie has made his mind up and we know he can be somewhat stubborn. But one defeat in 2 years gives him a lot of credit in my mind. You have to think that injury will give him a chance at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:46 am 
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Scrumhead wrote:
Apparently Eddie is keen on Ben Vellacott.

Personally I’d prefer Robson as our third choice 9, but Vellacott has been really impressive this season and it would be a massive waste to lose him to the Scots.

Also, unlike Maunder, he’s getting regular game time and has typically shone when given his opportunities.


Vellacott has looked very impressive in the last few televised Glaws games I've watched - initially just as a dawning realisation that there was no drop off in performance when he replaced Heinz, then an appreciation of his sharpness round the break down. As quick as Maunder, but not tiny. Townsend , from memory , was slower and more of a distributor in the Wriglesworth manner.
( I'd still like to have seen Robson given a shot.)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:56 am 
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Madness wrote:
Robson did have a couple of poor games last year when he was being watched by Eddie, could be that Eddie has made his mind up and we know he can be somewhat stubborn. But one defeat in 2 years gives him a lot of credit in my mind. You have to think that injury will give him a chance at some point.


Must be it. But Care and Youngs have also had their air share of poor games - and all that happens is that hey get swapped around. Even if they are to remain as 1st choice for the matchday squad, it seems bizarre not to have given anyone else any real experience. It would be bad enough if one of them were to be injured - but they could easily both be.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 am 
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He's a funny fuc*er Jones isn't he? I'm not really inclined to criticise at the moment because I'm neither a professional coach or in receipt of his win record, but there are some players he just doesn't rate.

I assume shit loads of invisible (to fans) stuff plays into it like heavy duty stats, personality and temperament, performances in training, relationships with other players etc.

And you don't ever really know if he's playing with a straight bat.

The back row thing really interests me. He's been more inclined to use (or hold as reserve) our locks to cover those positions. There's clearly an issue with how highly he rates certain players.

Fair play to him though - he can recall Mike Tindall if we keep winning for all I care.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:05 am 
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Yeah it's tough to get too exercised after one loss in two years of rugby. But his selectorial approach with regard to certain positions is rather baffling.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:12 am 
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SamShark wrote:
He's a funny fuc*er Jones isn't he? I'm not really inclined to criticise at the moment because I'm neither a professional coach or in receipt of his win record, but there are some players he just doesn't rate.

I assume shit loads of invisible (to fans) stuff plays into it like heavy duty stats, personality and temperament, performances in training, relationships with other players etc.

And you don't ever really know if he's playing with a straight bat.

The back row thing really interests me. He's been more inclined to use (or hold as reserve) our locks to cover those positions. There's clearly an issue with how highly he rates certain players.

Fair play to him though - he can recall Mike Tindall if we keep winning for all I care.


Despite his 22/23 - I'm really not convinced by him.

There, I've said it.

No doubt he's done some good things - but things have worked out for him rather fortunately.

He seems to treading the familiar track of past England managers - getting more conservative with each game - and maintaining faith in players long after they've passed their SBD.

This 6N could be the litmus test.


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