Planet Rugby Forum

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:I suppose we could always pick Goode, there's a full back who understands the art of defending.

Goode's defensive shortcomings are seen. Brown's are just ignored.

Who would you pick then Toga, because you have just cast aside Brown and Goode?

Presumably defensive rock Anthony Watson

Keith wrote:

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:I suppose we could always pick Goode, there's a full back who understands the art of defending.

Goode's defensive shortcomings are seen. Brown's are just ignored.

Who would you pick then Toga, because you have just cast aside Brown and Goode?

Presumably defensive rock Anthony Watson

He'll not get beaten for speed, side-stepping locks on the other hand.....

ManInTheBar wrote:

Keith wrote:

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:I suppose we could always pick Goode, there's a full back who understands the art of defending.

Goode's defensive shortcomings are seen. Brown's are just ignored.

Who would you pick then Toga, because you have just cast aside Brown and Goode?

Presumably defensive rock Anthony Watson

He'll not get beaten for speed, side-stepping locks on the other hand.....

Ugo Mk 2

blindcider wrote:
Ugo Mk 2

Wayyyyyyyyyyy below the belt

It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

DragsterDriver wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Ugo Mk 2

Wayyyyyyyyyyy below the belt

I like Watson but lets leave him on the wing where his skill set can be exploited by England rather than the opposition please

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

...and catching the high ball was both the key part of the job for that game and difficult. And he did it VERY well.

We do have a bit of a thing for concentrating on the parts of a player's game that they could be even better at rather than the things that make them damn good. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Farrell has the swerve of Barry John or that Brown is Blanco, Gallagher and oh God I don't know someone else rolled into one.

But he is NOT sh1te, he is highly consistent, makes a lot of yards, is tough as the steak in a Berni and better than any of the alternatives. In my view. We'll miss him when he is gone.

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

I doubt you'd agree with me as to the standard of Brown's defence let alone the merits of an alternative in comparison.

Was Brown at fault for the first Italian try?
Was Brown caught square and on his heels prior to Underhill saving him?

Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

Chips wrote:
Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

JPR - that's the feller I was trying to think of. Thanks.

Chips wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

I doubt you'd agree with me as to the standard of Brown's defence let alone the merits of an alternative in comparison.

Was Brown at fault for the first Italian?
Was Brown caught square and on his heels prior to Underhill saving him?

Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

You still haven't revealed who you would pick instead

It's all gone a bit Silver.

The Man Without Fear wrote:It's all gone a bit Silver.

And then ad hominem starts.

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

I doubt you'd agree with me as to the standard of Brown's defence let alone the merits of an alternative in comparison.

Was Brown at fault for the first Italian?
Was Brown caught square and on his heels prior to Underhill saving him?

Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

You still haven't revealed who you would pick instead

If you were paying attention you'd have seen that actually I have.

Chips wrote:

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

I doubt you'd agree with me as to the standard of Brown's defence let alone the merits of an alternative in comparison.

Was Brown at fault for the first Italian?
Was Brown caught square and on his heels prior to Underhill saving him?

Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

You still haven't revealed who you would pick instead

If you were paying attention you'd have seen that actually I have.

Nope

Chips wrote:

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Chips wrote:It's great how this place works. A person will argue the hind legs off a donkey that Farrell is a bit shit because he doesn't score as many tries as Will Greenwood did, yet a slow fullback who doesn't pass and concedes tries in the 5m channel but catches 7 out of 9 high kicks in the drizzle is a defensive rock.

Who's better in defence than Brown?

I doubt you'd agree with me as to the standard of Brown's defence let alone the merits of an alternative in comparison.

Was Brown at fault for the first Italian?
Was Brown caught square and on his heels prior to Underhill saving him?

Brown is regarded as some kind of modern-day defensive JPR by many in here and that's before we even consider his attacking shortcomings.

You still haven't revealed who you would pick instead

If you were paying attention you'd have seen that actually I have.

Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

I've read back a few pages and think the answer is JPR

But he's not qualified?

blindcider wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Ugo Mk 2

Wayyyyyyyyyyy below the belt

I like Watson but lets leave him on the wing where his skill set can be exploited by England rather than the opposition please

Anyway- can’t believe you’ve resisted a “Goodbye, Mr Chips” line

Chips wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:It's all gone a bit Silver.

And then ad hominem starts.

Yep We may as well laugh at you since there's little point arguing with someone who believes Mike Brown can't defend at Test level but being a full back, he is still going to get beaten from time to time because that's what happens to the last line of defence.

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

DragsterDriver wrote:

blindcider wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Ugo Mk 2

Wayyyyyyyyyyy below the belt

I like Watson but lets leave him on the wing where his skill set can be exploited by England rather than the opposition please

Anyway- can’t believe you’ve resisted a “Goodbye, Mr Chips” line

I'm still insisting I'm not a mod anymore - despite HK and Jake not removing teh codez.

Anyway, given Mr Taff and friends are still around it seems that Toga will be given a chance not to repeat his previous behaviour.

The Man Without Fear wrote:

Chips wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:It's all gone a bit Silver.

And then ad hominem starts.

Yep We may as well laugh at you since there's little point arguing with someone who believes Mike Brown can't defend at Test level but being a full back, he is still going to get beaten from time to time because that's what happens to the last line of defence.

I get it. Owen Farrell - fair cop for criticism. Mike Brown - don't you dare.

Anyway, as fun as this is I will have more pressing calls on my time today, like trying to get my daughter out of the Natural History Museum without an interaction with the gift shop.

The Man Without Fear wrote:Anyway, as fun as this is I will have more pressing calls on my time today, like trying to get my daughter out of the Natural History Museum without an interaction with the gift shop.

£12 for a curly pencil with a dinosaur head. Standard.



No idea why toga is SOS anyway- always been cool with me.

Chips wrote:

ovalball wrote:

Chips wrote: Eh?

It's dreadful defending of a 5m wide channel that has a defender running along one side who never misses. Brown didn't actually do anything, no decision to commit, no decision to shepherd towards touch.

Utter, utter, nonsense - no fullback can cover against a 3 on 1.

Brown is no favourite of mine - but to criticise him for that incident, absolute madness - you must be the only person on the planet that thinks he was at fault there.

Easy. He is standing square and on his heels which gives him no chance to cover the 5m channel or to slide back. Cover was there to leave North anyway. It was only really a one-on-one and Brown got roasted on the narrow outside. He was humiliated by Williams.

It really wasn't great fullback play.

P.s he got done in a 2m wide channel in the Italy match.

Absolutely barking.

eldanielfire wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

I said it on this thread in reply to you ffs.

Chips wrote:

I don't think England can win the RWC with a fullback like Mike Brown. He's not going to be a better player in 18 months either. Watson is the obvious candidate although Nowell and Daly would offer more in my opinion.

Given Jones's outburst regards the selection of Brown to R5L he's clearly backed himself into a corner and won't drop him regardless. And that's why England will ultimately fail unfortunately. Jones is a great coach but we are seeing his weakness starting to manifest itself.

ovalball wrote:

Chips wrote:

ovalball wrote:

Chips wrote: Eh?

It's dreadful defending of a 5m wide channel that has a defender running along one side who never misses. Brown didn't actually do anything, no decision to commit, no decision to shepherd towards touch.

Utter, utter, nonsense - no fullback can cover against a 3 on 1.

Brown is no favourite of mine - but to criticise him for that incident, absolute madness - you must be the only person on the planet that thinks he was at fault there.

Easy. He is standing square and on his heels which gives him no chance to cover the 5m channel or to slide back. Cover was there to leave North anyway. It was only really a one-on-one and Brown got roasted on the narrow outside. He was humiliated by Williams.

It really wasn't great fullback play.

P.s he got done in a 2m wide channel in the Italy match.

Absolutely barking.

Instead of ad hominem virtue signalling tho the PR echo chamber, how about just looking at the specific examples objectively eh? You know, talk about the rugby.

Chips wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

I said it on this thread in reply to you ffs.

Chips wrote:

I don't think England can win the RWC with a fullback like Mike Brown. He's not going to be a better player in 18 months either. Watson is the obvious candidate although Nowell and Daly would offer more in my opinion.

Given Jones's outburst regards the selection of Brown to R5L he's clearly backed himself into a corner and won't drop him regardless. And that's why England will ultimately fail unfortunately. Jones is a great coach but we are seeing his weakness starting to manifest itself.

To be fair you re-rejected Watson about 25 posts ago. I think you'd forgotten your picks.

I still think Daly would be a decent 15.

The four best outside backs in England are;

Daly
May
Nowell
Watson

I'd pick a back-3 from these with the spare on the bench.

DragsterDriver wrote:I still think Daly would be a decent 15.

I can certainly agree fully with that.

Chips wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

I said it on this thread in reply to you ffs.

Chips wrote:

I don't think England can win the RWC with a fullback like Mike Brown. He's not going to be a better player in 18 months either. Watson is the obvious candidate although Nowell and Daly would offer more in my opinion.

Given Jones's outburst regards the selection of Brown to R5L he's clearly backed himself into a corner and won't drop him regardless. And that's why England will ultimately fail unfortunately. Jones is a great coach but we are seeing his weakness starting to manifest itself.

None of those guys play Full back regularly even at domestic level is a massive issue.

Watsons outright pace would be wasted at full back where picking a line and acceleration is more important. I also have massive concerns about his positioning, tackling and his ability to pick the right lines.

Nowell seems to have the right stuff but is another one who has been exposed defensively at times (lions tour). Probably the most similar in playing style to Brown. Needs to play there for Exeter first and foremost and actually decide on a position. Perhaps destined to always be a 23 though due to that dreaded word "versatility"

Daly - Another one destined to be a 23 for the majority of his career IMO although he's impressed on the wing as his pace is surprisingly good. Needs to play there regularly for club first.

I don't know who the answer is at 15 when Brown is no longer the best available option. I still believe Goode is a natural 12 and not a 15 and he's generally bombed for England when given the opportunity anyway.

There is no-one putting genuine concerted pressure on Brown for the 15 shirt. Its the same with the 9 shirt and Care/Youngs

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

I said it on this thread in reply to you ffs.

Chips wrote:

I don't think England can win the RWC with a fullback like Mike Brown. He's not going to be a better player in 18 months either. Watson is the obvious candidate although Nowell and Daly would offer more in my opinion.

Given Jones's outburst regards the selection of Brown to R5L he's clearly backed himself into a corner and won't drop him regardless. And that's why England will ultimately fail unfortunately. Jones is a great coach but we are seeing his weakness starting to manifest itself.

None of those guys play Full back regularly even at domestic level is a massive issue.

Watsons outright pace would be wasted at full back where picking a line and acceleration is more important. I also have massive concerns about his positioning, tackling and his ability to pick the right lines.

Nowell seems to have the right stuff but is another one who has been exposed defensively at times (lions tour). Probably the most similar in playing style to Brown. Needs to play there for Exeter first and foremost and actually decide on a position. Perhaps destined to always be a 23 though due to that dreaded word "versatility"

Daly - Another one destined to be a 23 for the majority of his career IMO although he's impressed on the wing as his pace is surprisingly good. Needs to play there regularly for club first.

I don't know who the answer is at 15 when Brown is no longer the best available option. I still believe Goode is a natural 12 and not a 15 and he's generally bombed for England when given the opportunity anyway.

There is no-one putting genuine concerted pressure on Brown for the 15 shirt. Its the same with the 9 shirt and Care/Youngs

Good post.

Eddie doesn't call them wingers or fullbacks, he expects them all to be interchangeable although Brown is by far the most specialized. Look, he picks Farrell at 12 who never plays 12 for his club. I don't have the misgivings about playing Watson, Nowell or Daly at 15 provided it's a planned evolution.

Problem is, as I mentioned in the answer that the gadfly forgot I gave, Eddie has put his cock on the block regards Brown much like he has with Hartley, and he won't drop either of them now regardless of form or alternatives.

Fuck it, I'm out

Chips wrote:

blindcider wrote:

Chips wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

blindcider wrote:
Humour me, I don't have time to read every post on a thread

It's amazing how much Toga insists that he was told every other poster something they can't remember. Likewise his refusal to actually address the points other posters make without strawmen of other things not asked about or using singular examples that are rarely regular play.

I said it on this thread in reply to you ffs.

Chips wrote:

I don't think England can win the RWC with a fullback like Mike Brown. He's not going to be a better player in 18 months either. Watson is the obvious candidate although Nowell and Daly would offer more in my opinion.

Given Jones's outburst regards the selection of Brown to R5L he's clearly backed himself into a corner and won't drop him regardless. And that's why England will ultimately fail unfortunately. Jones is a great coach but we are seeing his weakness starting to manifest itself.

None of those guys play Full back regularly even at domestic level is a massive issue.

Watsons outright pace would be wasted at full back where picking a line and acceleration is more important. I also have massive concerns about his positioning, tackling and his ability to pick the right lines.

Nowell seems to have the right stuff but is another one who has been exposed defensively at times (lions tour). Probably the most similar in playing style to Brown. Needs to play there for Exeter first and foremost and actually decide on a position. Perhaps destined to always be a 23 though due to that dreaded word "versatility"

Daly - Another one destined to be a 23 for the majority of his career IMO although he's impressed on the wing as his pace is surprisingly good. Needs to play there regularly for club first.

I don't know who the answer is at 15 when Brown is no longer the best available option. I still believe Goode is a natural 12 and not a 15 and he's generally bombed for England when given the opportunity anyway.

There is no-one putting genuine concerted pressure on Brown for the 15 shirt. Its the same with the 9 shirt and Care/Youngs

Good post.

Eddie doesn't call them wingers or fullbacks, he expects them all to be interchangeable although Brown is by far the most specialized. Look, he picks Farrell at 12 who never plays 12 for his club. I don't have the misgivings about playing Watson, Nowell or Daly at 15 provided it's a planned evolution.

Problem is, as I mentioned in the answer that the gadfly forgot I gave, Eddie has put his cock on the block regards Brown much like he has with Hartley, and he won't drop either of them now regardless of form or alternatives.

Alternatively, he could genuinely think they are the best option.

Everyone’s been clammering for George, but he came on last week and butchered his first lineout, giving up a promising position from a penalty.

choc wrote: Alternatively, he could genuinely think they are the best option.

Of course but we're all experts aren't we.

Nothing like a bit of healthy rugby debate!

I think we have to accept that Brown is (barring a big injury) going to be Eddie's FB for 2019. If you look at it that way, there is literally no point in arguing over who is better. It should just be about what Brown can do to improve.

Once 2019 is over, then the discussion starts.

I'd say Daly. Great speed and intelligence, he also has a massive boot and can pass, offload and tackle. What more do you want?

DragsterDriver wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:Anyway, as fun as this is I will have more pressing calls on my time today, like trying to get my daughter out of the Natural History Museum without an interaction with the gift shop.

£12 for a curly pencil with a dinosaur head. Standard.



No idea why toga is SOS anyway- always been cool with me.

Pretty sure I paid less than a tenner for a triceratops hand puppet my little girl loves from there. That said, she's not 4, and so is easily pleased

Thought the food in the canteen was pretty good too, for the price

edit: for the record, I think Owen is brilliant, Ford deserves to play in a less shit club side, and Brown had his best game in a while against the Welsh.

Chips wrote:
Problem is, as I mentioned in the answer that the gadfly forgot I gave, Eddie has put his cock on the block regards Brown much like he has with Hartley, and he won't drop either of them now regardless of form or alternatives.

I was one of the people who thought George should be given the nod over Hartley. The problem is whenever he has pulled on the white shirt he is another that hasn't screamed out to retain it - although he has had very limited opportunity so we'll wait and see.

From the stats someone has done on here on England games, Hartley is very effective in an England shirt when you actually break down what he does and his lineout darts are still the most consistent. He's rather surprisingly turned out to be a very capable captain in how he's handled referees.

Chips wrote:

ovalball wrote:

Chips wrote:

ovalball wrote:

Chips wrote: Eh?

It's dreadful defending of a 5m wide channel that has a defender running along one side who never misses. Brown didn't actually do anything, no decision to commit, no decision to shepherd towards touch.

Utter, utter, nonsense - no fullback can cover against a 3 on 1.

Brown is no favourite of mine - but to criticise him for that incident, absolute madness - you must be the only person on the planet that thinks he was at fault there.

Easy. He is standing square and on his heels which gives him no chance to cover the 5m channel or to slide back. Cover was there to leave North anyway. It was only really a one-on-one and Brown got roasted on the narrow outside. He was humiliated by Williams.

It really wasn't great fullback play.

P.s he got done in a 2m wide channel in the Italy match.

Absolutely barking.

Instead of ad hominem virtue signalling tho the PR echo chamber, how about just looking at the specific examples objectively eh? You know, talk about the rugby.

Already done that - and the irony of you accusing someone else of ad hominem attacks hasn't escaped me either (did you ever play rugby at a senior level ?) After your earlier comments I reviewed the the evidence on Youtube. But there comes a point when your arguments become so ridiculous that they don't warrant further serious discussion. Criticising a FB for being unable to stop a 3 on 1 overlap being a case in point - let alone saying it was 'easy'. It's very clear that you have an agenda against Brown and there's nothing he can do, or that anyone can say, that will alter that.

For some reason you think that you've seen some serious flaws in Brown's performance, against Wales, that all the best Rugby pundits and Analysts missed, and that your assessment is more valid than theirs - or any other poster on here.