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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:08 pm
by bimboman
englishchief wrote:
bimboman wrote:
englishchief wrote:Daly and Watson are world class. Te'o and Farrell are very good international players, Ford is excellent.

The problem is when your 1-8 are an overall mediocre, and your 9 even further beyond that, those qualities can't shine through.

Oh piss off Launchbury and Itoji start for most sides internationally.
I didn't say they wouldn't :lol: see the word 'overall' in there?

The issue is in the back row and not having a decision about what 8 we want playing.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:09 pm
by RodneyRegis
openclashXX wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Flankers in giving away penalties shock.
:lol:

Is this an actual excuse for a game where we gave away 16 penalties
Of which the flankers conceded 4 :lol:

Most of them were for holding on.
You do realise that "holding on" is as a result of an anonymous back row leaving people like George Ford to clear out Bastareaud

The bulk of those penalties were directly or indirectly a result of a shocking back row performance
Absolutely, with a little refereeing nonsense thrown in. Robshaw is our best 6, clearly. We all knew we couldn't go in with the same backrow as last week, all except Eddie it seems.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:09 pm
by RodneyRegis
The Man Without Fear wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Flankers in giving away penalties shock.
:lol:

Is this an actual excuse for a game where we gave away 16 penalties
Of which the flankers conceded 4 :lol:

Most of them were for holding on.

You are all over the shop, as ever.
Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step away from openclash and have a beer.
Good idea.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:09 pm
by ThePretender
bimboman wrote:
ThePretender wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Gospel wrote:
englishchief wrote:Anything to deflect away from Saint Robshaw it seems
Far be it for me to defend a filthy quim but for large swathes of the game it seemed that Robshaw was the only England player making any positive interventions.
Robshaw was a joke. Plodding around the pitch, no pace, conceding penalties, getting murdered at the ruck, zero power in his carries, no stopping power in his tackles.

He's done at this level
It wasn't just Robshaw (who was crap, admittedly) the entire team lacked any sort of power.

We looked to be at 50% of the French all day. How they didn't beat us by more is down mostly to them not being a good side.

We clearly weren't 50% it was one score.
In terms of power. It wasn't a literal comparison but more a comment on the gulf between how the various players performed. We looked miles off in both pace and physicality - which shouldn't be the case given the size of some of our guys.
What was clear today was that size didn't = power. As we saw at a number of breakdowns.

Whole team looks absolutely exhausted tbh.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by Wendigo7
What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by bimboman
openclashXX wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Flankers in giving away penalties shock.
:lol:

Is this an actual excuse for a game where we gave away 16 penalties
Of which the flankers conceded 4 :lol:

Most of them were for holding on.
You do realise that "holding on" is as a result of an anonymous back row leaving people like George Ford to clear out Bastareaud

The bulk of those penalties were directly or indirectly a result of a shocking back row performance

I said in the match thread "oh good Watson has to hit another ruck"

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by JM2K6
It was obvious when the subs came on, wendigo

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by englishchief
bimboman wrote:
englishchief wrote:
bimboman wrote:
englishchief wrote:Daly and Watson are world class. Te'o and Farrell are very good international players, Ford is excellent.

The problem is when your 1-8 are an overall mediocre, and your 9 even further beyond that, those qualities can't shine through.

Oh piss off Launchbury and Itoji start for most sides internationally.
I didn't say they wouldn't :lol: see the word 'overall' in there?

The issue is in the back row and not having a decision about what 8 we want playing.
One of the issues. I'd even say Itoje + Launch at full fitness and form are the best second row in the world. But even they can't sort out the aging, ineffective players in front and behind them.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by Gospel
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Maintaining the width. This is how Eddie has set England up to play and we're not executing properly.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by ThePretender
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Agreed - so many rucks where it was Watson/Daly/May doing the rucking whilst the forwards were stood in the backline.

Although by that point their presence at the ruck was more of a hindrance so perhaps that was the plan.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:11 pm
by bimboman
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?

Following the talisman Robshaw.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:11 pm
by bimboman
Gospel wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Maintaining the width. This is how Eddie has set England up to play and we're not executing properly.

Then he needs to narrow the f ucki game rather than rely on a referee bailing us out at the breakdown.

When the subs came on the game narrowed and we got forward ball.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:12 pm
by Keith
bimboman wrote:
Keith wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Keith wrote:To me is clear that we only have one world class player - Elliott Daly

Stop being silly.
Name the others. If you mention Farrell.... :?

Launchbury , Itoji, Farrell, George was a winner in a Lions shirt. So knob off.
Itoje, Farrell and George have been dreadful all championship.

Launch has been decent, but he's not world class

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:13 pm
by JM2K6
I'm sure the ruck marks will be done in due course and we will see who was shirking, but POC was making the very sane point that waiting for the ball carrier to be on the ground meant we were too late to clean out. We were starting off isolated, just as we did against Scotland.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:13 pm
by bimboman
Keith wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Keith wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Keith wrote:To me is clear that we only have one world class player - Elliott Daly

Stop being silly.
Name the others. If you mention Farrell.... :?

Launchbury , Itoji, Farrell, George was a winner in a Lions shirt. So knob off.
Itoje, Farrell and George have been dreadful all championship.

Launch has been decent, but he's not world class

Go away Keith, a bad championship after a great lions tour proves nothing.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:14 pm
by forrester
openclashXX wrote:
Gospel wrote:
englishchief wrote:Anything to deflect away from Saint Robshaw it seems
Far be it for me to defend a filthy quim but for large swathes of the game it seemed that Robshaw was the only England player making any positive interventions.
Robshaw was a joke. Plodding around the pitch, no pace, conceding penalties, getting murdered at the ruck, zero power in his carries, no stopping power in his tackles.

He's done at this level
I thought he worked as hard as just about anyone. We all agree he's not a 7 but it's not his fault he's being played out of position. We looked a different side with the HASK at 7 and more importantly when we had some carriers in the front 5. The whole balance of the pack was wrong until that point and the structure they were playing to made it far too easy for France to slow us down or turn us over. Trying to lay all the blame on one player is just an easy cop out.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:15 pm
by Gospel
bimboman wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Maintaining the width. This is how Eddie has set England up to play and we're not executing properly.

Then he needs to narrow the f ucki game rather than rely on a referee bailing us out at the breakdown.

When the subs came on the game narrowed and we got forward ball.
Did it narrow or did we just start to dominate the collisions and get on the front foot which had the French poachers in retreat .. I'd say the latter.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:15 pm
by bimboman
JM2K6 wrote:I'm sure the ruck marks will be done in due course and we will see who was shirking, but POC was making the very sane point that waiting for the ball carrier to be on the ground meant we were too late to clean out. We were starting off isolated, just as we did against Scotland.

Keep it narrower until on the front foot, Ireland were a master class on that today.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:15 pm
by openclashXX
RodneyRegis wrote:Robshaw is our best 6, clearly.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

no other country would consider a player lacking pace, power and breakdown impact as their "best 6, clearly"

by the end of the game the sight of Robshaw draped across the back of yet another French player that had beaten him to the ruck and straining as he failed to wrestle them off while the ref blew for the umpteenth penalty was sad

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:16 pm
by bimboman
Gospel wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Maintaining the width. This is how Eddie has set England up to play and we're not executing properly.

Then he needs to narrow the f ucki game rather than rely on a referee bailing us out at the breakdown.

When the subs came on the game narrowed and we got forward ball.
Did it narrow or did we just start to dominate the collisions and get on the front foot which had the French poachers in retreat .. I'd say the latter.
You're missing that we narrowed it substantially , they were dominating the challenge more because they're coming in harder from behind the ruck hitting straight lines rather than the side to side nonsense of the first 60.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:17 pm
by Wendigo7
openclashXX wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:Robshaw is our best 6, clearly.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

no other country would consider a player lacking pace, power and breakdown impact as their "best 6, clearly"

by the end of the game the sight of Robshaw draped across the back of yet another French player that had beaten him to the ruck and straining as he failed to wrestle them off while the ref blew for the umpteenth penalty was sad
He might need dropping, but his effort at the very bloody least to get to everything if he can, when Lawes, arguably Itoje, George and especially f**king Cole don't is also potentially masking up issues elsewhere in the side.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:19 pm
by Keith
LCD needs to sort his darts, but he looked far more dynamic than Gorge

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:20 pm
by Gospel
bimboman wrote:
Gospel wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:What pissed me off was the backs doing a shit load of rucking. Where the fudge were the forwards?
Maintaining the width. This is how Eddie has set England up to play and we're not executing properly.

Then he needs to narrow the f ucki game rather than rely on a referee bailing us out at the breakdown.

When the subs came on the game narrowed and we got forward ball.
Did it narrow or did we just start to dominate the collisions and get on the front foot which had the French poachers in retreat .. I'd say the latter.
You're missing that we narrowed it substantially , they were dominating the challenge more because they're coming in harder from behind the ruck hitting straight lines rather than the side to side nonsense of the first 60.
Yeah but that happens when you get a dominant collision. E.G. Carl Sinckler

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:21 pm
by bimboman
No they were able to dominate collisions because of the change of line.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:26 pm
by Brian9848
Hope you wont mind the intrusion lads, but thought Paul O’Connell made a great observation in closing the BBC’s coverage… England aren’t that far off, but they really need to focus on securing fast, clean ball first and then impose structure. Right now, Jones is emphasising attacking shape (and defensive line speed) and structure ahead of resourcing the breakdown both adequately and accurately and it’s now resulting in misfires as opposition teams in the 6N's with good ground games are attacking England there. England are so tactically focussed on realigning into their elaborate diamond shaped attacking patterns and establishing touch line to touchline width before they secure good ball and, as a result, are denied the quick ball or simply surrender it though turnover or penalty. It would help with the right selection, but it really is a tactical emphasis imposed by Jones. Opposition teams (Ireland last year, and now Scotland, France etc.) have now figured this out, and have altered their approach and are attacking England's ball like no other, but England are also more vulnerable now because of their back row selection.

In contrast, it really is evident at time how often Ireland are down on numbers in attack. We literally lose our attacking shape with too few players “in the backline” and/or lack width after multiple phases because of our emphasis on securing the breakdown, and preferably fast ball, at all costs. Again tactical emphasis. It’s paying off so far for Ireland, not so much for England.

Small adjustments can make a huge difference next week.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:26 pm
by fatheralice
Keith wrote:LCD needs to sort his darts, but he looked far more dynamic than Gorge
Definite nerves there, but not helped by the call to go to the back.

He did enough to get more gametime imo. Nerves will be sorted by playing time at this level.
He is 97% this season in the Prem, having been a bit flaky a year or two back there too...

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:27 pm
by SamShark
Gospel wrote:POC's comments in the build up were spot on. England want to play wide-wide so don't number up at the breakdown. The opposition have had a couple of seasons to work this out and now they are just piling in at the breakdown and England are refusing to adjust. We defended really well today but that counts for the square root of fudge all when you can't build a score.
This is where I’m at too.

It’s a cycle not a linear progression.

We had some success with one game plan but it’s not good enough to guarantee success. The last two games were really clear problems. We couldn’t create the momentum we needed when we get bested at the breakdown at key moments

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:27 pm
by JM2K6
Wendigo7 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:Robshaw is our best 6, clearly.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

no other country would consider a player lacking pace, power and breakdown impact as their "best 6, clearly"

by the end of the game the sight of Robshaw draped across the back of yet another French player that had beaten him to the ruck and straining as he failed to wrestle them off while the ref blew for the umpteenth penalty was sad
He might need dropping, but his effort at the very bloody least to get to everything if he can, when Lawes, arguably Itoje, George and especially f**king Cole don't is also potentially masking up issues elsewhere in the side.
History speaks for itself when it comes to clash on this stuff. Must admit it's a brave call to make out Robshaw is totally ineffectual at the breakdown when he gets there, given how many turnovers he won today, but clash always, ALWAYS over-eggs it when it comes to the guy he loves to hate.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:30 pm
by openclashXX
a look at the stats is pretty harrowing stuff for some players - what did Launchbury contribute? he was the worst player in attack on a metres run/per carry basis (9 carries for 2 whole metres made) and even Mako made more tackles than him in defence despite both being on for the same amount of time

I honestly forgot he was playing until Haskell came on and I had to remember who he was replacing, it was a pretty anonymous showing by him

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:30 pm
by Joost
It’s commendable of you to defend your man JM, but anyone with a clear mind can see that it’s time for Matt Kvesic to come into the side...

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:32 pm
by JM2K6
Joost wrote:It’s commendable of you to defend your man JM, but anyone with a clear mind can see that it’s time for Matt Kvesic to come into the side...
It's with a heavy heart that I must agree with you. It's time. I'll make the call to Rob Baxter and tell him to give Matt a shot at the shirt.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:32 pm
by openclashXX
JM2K6 wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:Robshaw is our best 6, clearly.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

no other country would consider a player lacking pace, power and breakdown impact as their "best 6, clearly"

by the end of the game the sight of Robshaw draped across the back of yet another French player that had beaten him to the ruck and straining as he failed to wrestle them off while the ref blew for the umpteenth penalty was sad
He might need dropping, but his effort at the very bloody least to get to everything if he can, when Lawes, arguably Itoje, George and especially f**king Cole don't is also potentially masking up issues elsewhere in the side.
History speaks for itself when it comes to clash on this stuff. Must admit it's a brave call to make out Robshaw is totally ineffectual at the breakdown when he gets there, given how many turnovers he won today, but clash always, ALWAYS over-eggs it when it comes to the guy he loves to hate.
go down swinging

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:32 pm
by Scrumhead
Same old, same old. The one guy genuinely working his a$$ off and making any turnovers is the target. Pretty much because his name is Chris Robshaw.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:33 pm
by Scrumhead
Are Bimbo and Openclash multis? :lol:

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:33 pm
by JM2K6
fatheralice wrote:
Keith wrote:LCD needs to sort his darts, but he looked far more dynamic than Gorge
Definite nerves there, but not helped by the call to go to the back.

He did enough to get more gametime imo. Nerves will be sorted by playing time at this level.
He is 97% this season in the Prem, having been a bit flaky a year or two back there too...
Yep, loved his ferocity at the breakdown - the fresh front row combo were a totally different beast in combo with Haskell and Robshaw. Agreed with your summation on the match thread too :thumbup:

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:33 pm
by forrester
SamShark wrote:
Gospel wrote:POC's comments in the build up were spot on. England want to play wide-wide so don't number up at the breakdown. The opposition have had a couple of seasons to work this out and now they are just piling in at the breakdown and England are refusing to adjust. We defended really well today but that counts for the square root of fudge all when you can't build a score.
This is where I’m at too.

It’s a cycle not a linear progression.

We had some success with one game plan but it’s not good enough to guarantee success. The last two games were really clear problems. We couldn’t create the momentum we needed when we get bested at the breakdown at key moments

It also doesn't help when all your carriers are a bit sh*t. Losing Hughes was huge and it wasn't until Sinkler came on that we could actually generate any go forward. If you never get over the gainline it doesn't really matter what system you play, the breakdown will always be a bun fight.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:33 pm
by Joost
JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote:It’s commendable of you to defend your man JM, but anyone with a clear mind can see that it’s time for Matt Kvesic to come into the side...
It's with a heavy heart that I must agree with you. It's time. I'll make the call to Rob Baxter and tell him to give Matt a shot at the shirt.
The Exeter shirt or the England shirt...?

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:33 pm
by Wendigo7
:lol:

It's not all Eddie's fault though. He got the selection wrong yes, but he's inherited a system let's be frank, isn't producing any good backrowers of real note.

We're clinging to the likes of Willis, Underhill etc, but nothing to justify them long term matching the likes of Leavy, O'Brien, Warburton and co. No one is being produced who's anything like that.

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:34 pm
by JM2K6
Joost wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote:It’s commendable of you to defend your man JM, but anyone with a clear mind can see that it’s time for Matt Kvesic to come into the side...
It's with a heavy heart that I must agree with you. It's time. I'll make the call to Rob Baxter and tell him to give Matt a shot at the shirt.
The Exeter shirt or the England shirt?
I hope you're not suggesting that the boy wonder can't nail down a starting spot ahead of a blindside and Julian Salvi...

Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:35 pm
by openclashXX
Joost wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Joost wrote:It’s commendable of you to defend your man JM, but anyone with a clear mind can see that it’s time for Matt Kvesic to come into the side...
It's with a heavy heart that I must agree with you. It's time. I'll make the call to Rob Baxter and tell him to give Matt a shot at the shirt.
The Exeter shirt or the England shirt...?
I believe that was the joke

although I've since moved on from Kvesic for England (great a player as he is) - more value in pushing either of the Curry twins these days