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**OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29726
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Author:  Gospel [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

This isn't the game I'd drop Brown to the bench for. I can just about make an argument for the three locks selection against France but I'd rather Haskell at 7 than Robshaw. I genuinely think England will lose because Scotland exposed some fundamental flaws in our game which France are more than capable of exploiting.

Author:  Chips [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
Chips wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
From people in the game, not random morons on forums and social media.




How do you get time to speak with people in the game as well as to random morons?


It's weird that people in the game never say anything that finds its way to the public. Total radio silence.




Weirder still that what they didn't say then didn't get quoted in here by his fanbois.

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

:uhoh:

Author:  slick [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


Just trying to establish if they're people who would actually know. You seem to want to dismiss the opinions of people who spend the most time with him but your anonymous and undefined mates seem to be all knowing.

Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.


I've met him 3 times, once he was an arse and the other two times quite nice. From what I've also heard he likes to play up to his grumpy persona but is actually a quiet, chilled out bloke who is a bit shy.

Hope this helps.

Author:  blindcider [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

The Man Without Fear wrote:
May's tombola of pace and brain injury.



:lol: :lol:

Author:  DragsterDriver [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


Just trying to establish if they're people who would actually know. You seem to want to dismiss the opinions of people who spend the most time with him but your anonymous and undefined mates seem to be all knowing.

Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.

I appreciate he may well have taken a selfie with you and signed something at the supporters club- that’s cool. Not everybody has the same experience, it’s ok to be different.

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

I've never spoken to him, I think. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether your sources would be people who'd actually know. No need to be a dick about it.

You thought he might be a problem child having been dropped, so people who've been around him in team environments would be a good source.

Author:  Rugby2023 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

ovalball wrote:
I remain, utterly unconvinced about Eddie. We've made zero progress in the last 18 months and there's precious few signs that he is acknowledging/tackling the real problems in the team. Another loss would be no bad thing.

This is outright madness oval. :)

Raggs wrote:
Wonder if Eddie has decided that the 6N is basically gone, and is now trying to move a few small things forwards.

I bloody hope not. Quitters never win (unless they're smokers of course). Need to chase the 5 pointer and try to ramp up a big scoreline.

Author:  Rugby2023 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

matta25 wrote:
After Eddie's bizarre rant to the press about how outstanding Mike Brown has been for 24 games, he gets dropped.

He's not very good in attack any more. Wet or not, England need to score tries and Watson is probably the likelier.

Author:  openclashXX [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

I also had to laugh at Mako as vice captain - there's literally two club captains in that pack, as well as Lawes, Itoje and George who all have club captaincy experience and yet he goes for the least captain-y option of the lot

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

The fear is we diminish our best winger by moving him to fullback, where he's been a bit meh at international level so far. Hope he really goes for it.

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

openclashXX wrote:
I also had to laugh at Mako as vice captain - there's literally two club captains in that pack, as well as Lawes, Itoje and George who all have club captaincy experience and yet he goes for the least captain-y option of the lot


Only one club captain, no? Fair point nonetheless, might just be an attempt to get more out of him.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Scrummie wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Teo OK, not convinced but I can see the benefit. Watson OK, need someone to get time in the shirt, Daly - just hope he's match ready - he's our best back.

But Fck knows what's with Eddie and the back row - it's just madness - they were awful v the Scots and aren't going to, suddenly, become an international quality unit - even if they manage to do enough against France.

At least he's had to give George a start, so there'll be a little more pace in the pack.


I remain, utterly unconvinced about Eddie. We've made zero progress in the last 18 months and there's precious few signs that he is acknowledging/tackling the real problems in the team.

Another loss would be no bad thing.



24 wins from 26. Wow you’re a tough on to please.


Depends on the spin one wants. We've won 24/26, or we've lost 2 out of the last 4 6N games.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Raggs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Don't get all this "we got turned over at the breakdown, so need a proper 7" nonsense.

A good 7 can't defend your own ball. That's about changing your pod system and playing narrower.


That's just wrong really.

Check out around 29.48 in the Scotland game. Scrum, ball goes to Ford who sees space and attacks. Barclay (who was playing openside a the time), gets off the scrum, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, clear release and latches on, then Robshaw get's there and fails to move him. A proper 7 preferably just gets to Ford first, preventing any hands in the ruck, or at worst, actually clears Barclay out whilst he's getting back to his feet, Scotland win an easy pen. Similar from set piece at around 36.27, though not sure if that was a pen in the end. Robshaw just isn't quick enough. Put him at 6 where it's far less of an issue, and his strengths are supported far more.

A good 7 should not only be doing this for set piece, but for breaks as well, reading the play and getting into position. Hask had a good example of this for the lions, when the Lions broke, made 60m, and the opposition 7 got over the ball, but Hask basically cleared out the 7 and the tackled player in one huge hit. Hask is far from rounded, and we should be looking to move on, but he's an absolutely fabulous example of how a 7 can be influential in winning your own ball consistently at key times.

Should the rest of the pack be working well? Of course, but Lawes is not good at the breakdown, and putting him in the loose forwards just makes that even more noticeable, since it denies England of what would normally be a more accomplished breakdown worker there.

Can the system be adapted to make up for our lack of ability and poor selection? To a degree yes, but not for those set pieces or scrums!


Moving beyond your cruel observations of yesterday I actually agree with much of this, which mayn't surprise. It is odd actually that we're insisting on putting out some slower less mobile players and asking them to then play a hard game to support, though that doesn't really apply to our own bloody scrum ball.

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
The fear is we diminish our best winger by moving him to fullback, where he's been a bit meh at international level so far. Hope he really goes for it.


He was only our best winger while Daly was out.

As long as he handles the high ball well, and gets into position, he'll get plenty of chances to get involved in attacks - potentially it's a very dangerous back three. Probably the quickest we've had for many years.

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

My main concern with Watson at 15 is much like Brown he doesn't actually link the play between the 13 and the wings. We'll have a lot of pace available to us if only we can work out how to actually use it. We'll get options on the counter attack perhaps more than our own attack, especially with them lacking some pace and mobility at 13, which might be a similar issue to them as our 14 taking up some interesting positions in defence (especially now he's working with a new 13)

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.

Author:  mr flaps [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.



Daly is one of the best players in the world.

Author:  Margin_Walker [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Brendan Venter has left LI. Looks like Declan Kidney and Les Kiss will be announced next week in some capacity.

Not sure what the future structure will be and which coaches are being retained

Author:  Margin_Walker [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

England Bench definitely looks better this week. Some proper impact with Simmons, LCD and Sinkler there.

Big chance for George. Needs to bring his A game and make a statement

Author:  tc27 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

mr flaps wrote:
ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.



Daly is one of the best players in the world.


He's also got a far better boot than Watson.

Author:  Rugby2023 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

How much can we really expect from Daly in this match, he hasn't played rugby in months. Not sure who else was available but you'd think a fit, in-form player would fare better. Expected a muted game from him tbh.

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

tc27 wrote:
Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).


George should also be a bit quicker to the breakdown than Dylan - as well as being an extra carrying option.

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Rugby2023 wrote:
How much can we really expect from Daly in this match, he hasn't played rugby in months. Not sure who else was available but you'd think a fit, in-form player would fare better. Expected a muted game from him tbh.


Tend to agree - EJ seems to think his training camps are better, than real matches, for getting players match ready. Hughes was way off the pace against the Scots.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

ovalball wrote:
tc27 wrote:
Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).


George should also be a bit quicker to the breakdown than Dylan - as well as being an extra carrying option.


Also the 1331 isn't inherently conservative, you can use it more in the style of Ireland than say NZ, but it allows for all sorts. We could though use a 1331 to bring in an extra resource, or we would just have the pods reduce the spacing which would make it easier for players to move across from a previous phase. We could also make more use of our pick and go game. There was also something flagged up by someone on the 1014 site of the England supporting player tending to clear out by going to ground, croc rolls in the examples given, and given we've often a one man support that exposes us and there is maybe an option to work harder and try to keep our feet over the ball though that might take getting there earlier which starts us going round this whole loop again

Author:  DragsterDriver [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
I've never spoken to him, I think. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether your sources would be people who'd actually know. No need to be a dick about it.

You thought he might be a problem child having been dropped, so people who've been around him in team environments would be a good source.


You’re right, I was being a bit of a dick.

Author:  fatcat [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I've never spoken to him, I think. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether your sources would be people who'd actually know. No need to be a dick about it.

You thought he might be a problem child having been dropped, so people who've been around him in team environments would be a good source.


You’re right, I was being a bit of a dick.


I've heard you're a nice guy away from here.

Author:  tc27 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

piquant wrote:
ovalball wrote:
tc27 wrote:
Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).


George should also be a bit quicker to the breakdown than Dylan - as well as being an extra carrying option.


Also the 1331 isn't inherently conservative, you can use it more in the style of Ireland than say NZ, but it allows for all sorts. We could though use a 1331 to bring in an extra resource, or we would just have the pods reduce the spacing which would make it easier for players to move across from a previous phase. We could also make more use of our pick and go game. There was also something flagged up by someone on the 1014 site of the England supporting player tending to clear out by going to ground, croc rolls in the examples given, and given we've often a one man support that exposes us and there is maybe an option to work harder and try to keep our feet over the ball though that might take getting there earlier which starts us going round this whole loop again



I agree - its only conservative when compared to 1-2-2-2-1.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

tc27 wrote:
piquant wrote:
ovalball wrote:
tc27 wrote:
Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).


George should also be a bit quicker to the breakdown than Dylan - as well as being an extra carrying option.


Also the 1331 isn't inherently conservative, you can use it more in the style of Ireland than say NZ, but it allows for all sorts. We could though use a 1331 to bring in an extra resource, or we would just have the pods reduce the spacing which would make it easier for players to move across from a previous phase. We could also make more use of our pick and go game. There was also something flagged up by someone on the 1014 site of the England supporting player tending to clear out by going to ground, croc rolls in the examples given, and given we've often a one man support that exposes us and there is maybe an option to work harder and try to keep our feet over the ball though that might take getting there earlier which starts us going round this whole loop again



I agree - its only conservative when compared to 1-2-2-2-1.



I still look at the 12221 and think that's not a proper system. Ignoring that however I don't see why the 1331 can't be more adventurous, the spacing between the players, the roles they look to enact all bleeds into it. The system is just a starting point not an entire picture

Author:  DragsterDriver [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

fatcat wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I've never spoken to him, I think. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether your sources would be people who'd actually know. No need to be a dick about it.

You thought he might be a problem child having been dropped, so people who've been around him in team environments would be a good source.


You’re right, I was being a bit of a dick.


I've heard you're a nice guy away from here.



#fakenews

Author:  DragsterDriver [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

I prefer 4-4-2 or 1-4-4-1

Author:  Margin_Walker [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

DragsterDriver wrote:
I prefer 4-4-2 or 1-4-4-1


I always like the Christmas tree formation. They should bring that back.

Author:  ovalball [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

What's happened to Nick Schonert - wasn't he being touted to break into the England side this year ?

Author:  tc27 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

My club uses 2-4-2 with the locks and props making up the 4.

Might be a comment on the fitness of us tight forwards :D

Quote:
I still look at the 12221 and think that's not a proper system. Ignoring that however I don't see why the 1331 can't be more adventurous, the spacing between the players, the roles they look to enact all bleeds into it. The system is just a starting point not an entire picture


I think it works if you have Billy making massive carries and Hask smashing the first breakdown plus contributions from the rest of the pack that seemed to be more dynamic in 2016/17.

Author:  piquant [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

tc27 wrote:
My club uses 2-4-2 with the locks and props making up the 4.

Might be a comment on the fitness of us tight forwards :D

Quote:
I still look at the 12221 and think that's not a proper system. Ignoring that however I don't see why the 1331 can't be more adventurous, the spacing between the players, the roles they look to enact all bleeds into it. The system is just a starting point not an entire picture


I think it works if you have Billy making massive carries and Hask smashing the first breakdown plus contributions from the rest of the pack that seemed to be more dynamic in 2016/17.


The 242 works well on reducing the amount of running required in the tight five, whether one cares to deem that lazy or efficient probably depends on the team. What the 242 also does is expose the handling and decision making in the tight five, and whether that's a good idea or not again depends on the team.

Also Billy making carries would make any system look better.

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

ovalball wrote:
What's happened to Nick Schonert - wasn't he being touted to break into the England side this year ?


Was that anything more than Jake's hot tip?

Author:  JM2K6 [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

Oh Christ, I really should rephrase that

Author:  happyhooker [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread

JM2K6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
What's happened to Nick Schonert - wasn't he being touted to break into the England side this year ?


Was that anything more than Jake's hot tip?

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