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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:12 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Farrell is bigger with an angry face. That means he tries harder etc.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Also he is a great place kicker, the uniquely English obsession as the defining requirement in a Fly Half.


I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 am 
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Fordy's kicking has been excellent since Argentina. Farrell's kicking hasn't even been that good.

Agree with everything TopNacker said.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 am 
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Dropping Farrell is the single dumbest suggestion of what needs to happen to the England team.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 am 
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tc27 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Farrell is bigger with an angry face. That means he tries harder etc.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Also he is a great place kicker, the uniquely English obsession as the defining requirement in a Fly Half.


I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.


It's an attitude that stretched all the way to Mike Catt and then Charlie Hodgson. Can't kick, can't play 10. Ironically Wilko while taking kicking to another level flourished in England's flowing attacking style when Brian Ashton was attack coach. However for some reaosn despite you needing 3 penalties to outscore a converted try, there is some belief that World cups always come down to penalties kickers.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:21 am 
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tc27 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Farrell is bigger with an angry face. That means he tries harder etc.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Also he is a great place kicker, the uniquely English obsession as the defining requirement in a Fly Half.


I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.



Chips wrote:
Dropping Farrell is the single dumbest suggestion of what needs to happen to the England team.


As if by magic, the very attitude problem turn's up.

Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:22 am 
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Chips wrote:
Dropping Farrell is the single dumbest suggestion of what needs to happen to the England team.


I like Farrell, don't get me wrong (I only said it as a consideration rather than an absolute too).

The issue is that the recent backrow has not been quick enough to cope with the wolfpack/speedbump tactic. Bring Hask in as 7 and retain Farrell fine. Keep the backrow as it was against Scotland and Farrell needs to make his tackles stick as Robshaw isn't quite quick enough as a 7 to cover him IMO. I personally prefer Ford as the 10 option.

Its not getting rid of Farrell per sé as much as balancing the strengths and weaknesses to the talent available


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:25 am 
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No point dropping or changing the Ford Farrell axis now.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:26 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.




Everything you have written is wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:26 am 
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tc27 wrote:
No point dropping or changing the Ford Farrell axis now.


Everyone's position should be under threat always


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:31 am 
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Chips wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.




Everything you have written is wrong.

So you're saying his place kicking is going well at the moment?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am 
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Chips wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.




Everything you have written is wrong.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:35 am 
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happyhooker wrote:
Chips wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.




Everything you have written is wrong.

So you're saying his place kicking is going well at the moment?



It's not as good as it's been but certainly no cause for alarm.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:50 am 
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This bodes well for our last two games...

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:02 am 
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openclashXX wrote:
This bodes well for our last two games...

Image



Something is definitely wrong there ... look at the England and Ireland stats.

Edit - England stats look correct, BBC haven't bothered actually getting the Ireland stats


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:07 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
tc27 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Farrell is bigger with an angry face. That means he tries harder etc.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Also he is a great place kicker, the uniquely English obsession as the defining requirement in a Fly Half.


I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.



Chips wrote:
Dropping Farrell is the single dumbest suggestion of what needs to happen to the England team.


As if by magic, the very attitude problem turn's up.

Why? Because he misses easy to make tackles? His placing kicking is not at it's best recently? He is slow to pass and see space? He can't always pass left to right? And even when he does, it's slooooooow. Farrell's best contribution is he is vocal and a leader, his skills and attributes right now are not something any top team will miss.


Must be some mistake, I've been told repeatedly that he's our only world class player.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:07 am 
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Please- can somebody find the goal kicking stats?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:15 am 
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RodneyRegis wrote:

Must be some mistake, I've been told repeatedly that he's our only world class player.


By Toga of course. the poster with one of the worst histories of evaluating player son this forum.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:18 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:

Must be some mistake, I've been told repeatedly that he's our only world class player.


By Toga of course. the poster with one of the worst histories of evaluating player son this forum.


Nah, plenty say it. I think it's like an attempt to appear to have a higher understanding of rugby, to pompously tell everyone that a centre who can't pass both ways and rarely makes a break is world class. Posters and pundits alike are guilty of this.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:21 am 
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Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:29 am 
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Joost wrote:
Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


I think there is a lot of pent-up worry that despite the results the performances have been very hit and miss and some of the batting collapse frailties seem to be returning.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:29 am 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:

Must be some mistake, I've been told repeatedly that he's our only world class player.


By Toga of course. the poster with one of the worst histories of evaluating player son this forum.


Nah, plenty say it. I think it's like an attempt to appear to have a higher understanding of rugby, to pompously tell everyone that a centre who can't pass both ways and rarely makes a break is world class. Posters and pundits alike are guilty of this.



True. As i pointed out earlier( and on many occasions), Farrell is a classic case where he was hyped as the 2nd coming and because he kicks well is install confidence in English supporters who will believe everything said about him, despite the fact his game shows very few world class attrubutes and skills.

I recall the YouTube highlights of Wales-England last year, Farrell fans raved in the comments about his pass to Daly. It was a fine pass, but it was a slow, easy to make pass when he had acres of time and space and due to the speed Daly had to thank Cuttbert's poor defending for the try. Imagine an Aussie or kiwi raving about that? That's a fairly standard pass to them. Compare that to Finn Russell's long bullet pass to Jones to tear open England while being rushed by the defense for Scotland? That's vision and great passing. Farrell can only dream of a pass like that. But instead we have Farrell fan boys and press raving about his two line breaks in 3 games (both against Italy) and the once a month long pass when he has lots of space.

Don't get me wrong, Farrell's done great to improve himself and his attitude is to be praised. But the lack of some basic attrtibutes like passing both ways, opening up space with his running, making line breaks which are rare to non-existent would make aussies and kiwis who even average centres this is bread and butter stuff would laugh..


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:32 am 
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I thought the pass was fantastic, but probably mostly because it was so unexpected.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:36 am 
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blindcider wrote:
Joost wrote:
Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


I think there is a lot of pent-up worry that despite the results the performances have been very hit and miss and some of the batting collapse frailties seem to be returning.


Agreed. One of the worries with me most of all is the pack. Under Lancaster, until the RWC, they would be described as a monster pack despite their flaws, able to bully most other packs. They lost that at the RWC, regained it a bit with Itoje's addition with world class performances under Jones. But now they are regressing and Jones is drifting into Lancaster's area's with added gimmics which appear to be having no effect.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:38 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I’ve not seen the French back row- hopefully not a mobile selection.



France: Bonneval; Fall, Bastareaud, Doumayrou, Grosso; Trinh-Duc, Machenaud; Poirot, Guirado (capt), Slimani, Gabrillagues, Vahaamahina, Lauret, Camara, Tauleigne.

Replacements: Pelissie, Priso, Gomes Sa, Taofifenua, Galletier, Couilloud, Beauxis, Fickou.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43309179


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:38 am 
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blindcider wrote:
Joost wrote:
Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


I think there is a lot of pent-up worry that despite the results the performances have been very hit and miss and some of the batting collapse frailties seem to be returning.


We’ve looked more convincing against the SH teams for me - not unlike the SCW era.

The Jock game was very frustrating, obviously, especially the breakdown but I’m convinced we’d have won it if either Care or Farrell hadn’t been called back - both massive calls which killed our momentum and galvanised the Scots. However, it’s got to a stage where I’m genuinely surprised when this team is unable to find a way to win (the complete opposite to previous eras).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:45 am 
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geordie_6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I’ve not seen the French back row- hopefully not a mobile selection.



France: Bonneval; Fall, Bastareaud, Doumayrou, Grosso; Trinh-Duc, Machenaud; Poirot, Guirado (capt), Slimani, Gabrillagues, Vahaamahina, Lauret, Camara, Tauleigne.

Replacements: Pelissie, Priso, Gomes Sa, Taofifenua, Galletier, Couilloud, Beauxis, Fickou.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43309179


Not the stodgiest trio.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:46 am 
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Joost wrote:
Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


People dislike Healy but he’s a really clever rugby brain.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:50 am 
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Farrell can't pass right, Farrell can't tackle, Farrell can't run. We're all blind. We're all seeing him pass right, tackling and running. What fools we are. My


Jesus wept :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:52 am 
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Chips wrote:
Farrell can't pass right, Farrell can't tackle, Farrell can't run. We're all blind. We're all seeing him pass right, tackling and running. What fools we are. My


Jesus wept :uhoh:


Wibbs.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:53 am 
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blindcider wrote:
Joost wrote:
Some interesting points re Healey in the Telegraph, especially re making sense of Watson over Brown: saying Brown’s two points of difference are his last ditch defending and high ball work, but that France tend to kick long for territory (which would suit Watson running it back) rather than contested garyowens and France score most of their tries from short range rather than long breakaways, especially now Teddy Thomas is out of the team.

Also finding it laughable that anyone is going for the ‘Eddie Out’ calls at this stage - what on earth would it take for a coach to please some people?! :lol:


I think there is a lot of pent-up worry that despite the results the performances have been very hit and miss and some of the batting collapse frailties seem to be returning.


The problem is, fans always focus on selection. What more can we focus on as we don't have access to tactics talk etc.

We have tired and overplayed Lions that could have been our point of difference in recent seasons. Our best players haven't played as well, even if less popular guys like Cole or Hartley haven't really delighted us.

The standard is also higher - Ireland and Scotland are better.

So if the standard is higher and we're not at our best then - hopefully - it isn't a major systemic problem.

I'm as big a fan of Dan Robson or whoever as anyone else, but every coach (when we're pissed off) gets called out on selection including Schmidt every time Ireland lose and whoever else.

I share the worry though - a loss tomorrow is tournament over and the prospect of maybe even a really shite tournament if we lose to Ireland.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:59 am 
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It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:59 am 
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Chips wrote:
Farrell can't pass right, Farrell can't tackle, Farrell can't run. We're all blind. We're all seeing him pass right, tackling and running. What fools we are. My


Jesus wept :uhoh:


Versus Scotland http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291697&league=180659

Tackles made 5, Tackles missed 4

Versus Wales http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291693&league=180659

Tackles made 13, Tackles Missed 7

Versus Italy http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291691&league=180659

Tackles Made 9, Tackles missed 2

He's missing 1/3 of his tackle attempts, as a centre that isn't good enough at Test level


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:02 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Everyone gets very upset when we lose though.

You'd have do do some major "narrative" pre-tournament work and say we're treating it as a development tournament.

I was very pleasantly surprised when we won in Argentina last year as that was very obviously a development side.

That's very different from just dropping an older player for the odd game.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:06 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Everyone gets very upset when we lose though.

You'd have do do some major "narrative" pre-tournament work and say we're treating it as a development tournament.

I was very pleasantly surprised when we won in Argentina last year as that was very obviously a development side.

That's very different from just dropping an older player for the odd game.


Sure, but 2 years out from the RWC we can't move on from the old guard, so there's no evolution.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:07 pm 
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blindcider wrote:
Chips wrote:
Farrell can't pass right, Farrell can't tackle, Farrell can't run. We're all blind. We're all seeing him pass right, tackling and running. What fools we are. My


Jesus wept :uhoh:


Versus Scotland http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291697&league=180659

Tackles made 5, Tackles missed 4

Versus Wales http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291693&league=180659

Tackles made 13, Tackles Missed 7

Versus Italy http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291691&league=180659

Tackles Made 9, Tackles missed 2

He's missing 1/3 of his tackle attempts, as a centre that isn't good enough at Test level


But SARACENS! SUPER RUSH!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:32 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
SamShark wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Everyone gets very upset when we lose though.

You'd have do do some major "narrative" pre-tournament work and say we're treating it as a development tournament.

I was very pleasantly surprised when we won in Argentina last year as that was very obviously a development side.

That's very different from just dropping an older player for the odd game.


Sure, but 2 years out from the RWC we can't move on from the old guard, so there's no evolution.


It's a tough one. The one thing that we love about rugby is that (aside from the odd Baa Baas game) there are no friendlies. Every game in the 6N, summer and Autumn really means something.

Not like football where friendlies are just going through the motions and even many qualifiers are tedious affairs.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:47 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Ok agree with every word of that


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:00 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


I agree with that to some degree. But playing your best players every time does not make a rugby team. Stuff like understanding, executing a style of play, knowing where teams mates will be and them knowing what move you are going to do requires time together. Constant chopping and changing due to form will ensure the team is taken apart by sides with continuity of play.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:03 pm 
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I don’t mind us getting beaten in a competetive game with Ireland or nz, I do object to picking a back row of oil tankers and getting what you deserve. There’s no harm in having a moan about that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:03 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Send a message to more of the passengers. Step it up, or be dropped because there are those other guys ready to take your spot.


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