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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Send a message to more of the passengers. Step it up, or be dropped because there are those other guys ready to take your spot.


Two areas where I would have expected to see Jones send a warning shot to his player by now, one on the grounds of bringing energy, though here we go back to are the players being over trained with a view to the WC, in which case there's little to be done, and also around discipline, nobody minds sealing off 2m from the try line wide out with a 4 on 1 overlap, it's all the essentially pointless pens we give away. In neither area though does Jones seem to have made selection changes to send out a warning.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:18 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


I agree with that to some degree. But playing your best players every time does not make a rugby team. Stuff like understanding, executing a style of play, knowing where teams mates will be and them knowing what move you are going to do requires time together. Constant chopping and changing due to form will ensure the team is taken apart by sides with continuity of play.


Absolutely, but surely it's possible to have new guys coming in who slot into the structures? Why do we even pick an EPS whne half of them never get in the 23, why not just bring a few guys in to be tackle bags at training? It's not like we're running anything super advanced.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:21 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:

Absolutely, but surely it's possible to have new guys coming in who slot into the structures? Why do we even pick an EPS whne half of them never get in the 23, why not just bring a few guys in to be tackle bags at training? It's not like we're running anything super advanced.


I think our attack system is very complex, arguably too much so. Lots of work off the ball, lots of decision making.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:24 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


I agree with that to some degree. But playing your best players every time does not make a rugby team. Stuff like understanding, executing a style of play, knowing where teams mates will be and them knowing what move you are going to do requires time together. Constant chopping and changing due to form will ensure the team is taken apart by sides with continuity of play.


Absolutely, but surely it's possible to have new guys coming in who slot into the structures? Why do we even pick an EPS whne half of them never get in the 23, why not just bring a few guys in to be tackle bags at training? It's not like we're running anything super advanced.


I agree. I've said before, evolution over revolution. However I do understand that getting closer to an RWC you stop bringing in players as given the limited time to gel or not disrupt the teams dynamics.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:32 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Please- can somebody find the goal kicking stats?


I think Faz is 9 from 12.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:36 pm 
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I realise I'm slow here, but it's only just dawned on me that Farrell's captain.

I really dislike how he interacts with referees.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
It's the constant obsession with winning every game and working to a ridiculous 4 year schedule. Oh, you can't drop so and so because he has loads of caps and the world cup is only 2 years away, even though hie is not up to it. Oh, it's a 6 nations game, you don't throw in new players. It's the AIs, we need to get our WC players used to playing SH sides. It's all bullshit, pick the best players.


Send a message to more of the passengers. Step it up, or be dropped because there are those other guys ready to take your spot.




This. Can you imagine how George and LCD must feel watching Hartley get picked for 2 years picking up cap after cap? He's not even the best hooker in Northampton ffs. Players know the order of things, you can't hide it if you're not putting it in.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:50 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Please- can somebody find the goal kicking stats?


I think Faz is 9 from 12.


Not the steely eyed percentage we’d expect? Ford would be under the bus for that.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:51 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
I realise I'm slow here, but it's only just dawned on me that Farrell's captain.

I really dislike how he interacts with referees.


Once faz has shouted at him a couple of times the ref will get the message.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:42 pm 
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I think the bench we have picked is a pretty good one compared to the previous 6N matches this season.

Cowan-Dickie - Taking him and George as a unit, better than Hartley and George.

Marler - Hepburn has looked OK but even though I would have stated Marler (although perhaps Jones went with Mako for the carries), Marler is a mean, sly old dog to come on.

Sinckler - Williams has looked useful but every team needs a massive, violent headcase. French front rowers of a certain vintage must get nostalgic when they see a genuine violent loony in the English ranks and recall punch ups of yore.

Haskell & Simmonds - I have to say Underhill is starting to underwhelm. I expect the presence of these two on the bench puts the back row on a proper warning as any of them can be hooked by a player capable of doing their job (as opposed to trying to get by with Robshaw at 8, for example).

Wigglesworth is Wigglesworth.

Joseph and Brown - I suspect that they are itching to get on to stick two fingers up at Jones. According to our sources, Brown might do that anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:47 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. As for a drop-goal forget it, you know it's missing as soon as he attempts. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Last edited by Rugby2023 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Well...

He passes ridiculously flat on the gainline. His tactical kicking is top notch, he defends just fine for a 10. He reads the game well and brings multiple options into the game with his excellent passing.

Unfortunately he can't win the game on his own off the back foot when his back row are getting manshamed...

I would agree with you on the breaks thing, but it seems Eddie doesn't want his half backs to offer any sustained running threat.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Also the last time Ford made a break, all of last game, our openside couldn't support it anyway.

When it comes to directing the options of the system we're using then Ford, and indeed Farrell are doing just fine imo. I still don't think we need to use the system, and I'd prefer a running option at 12, but within what we are trying to do I think our 10 and 12 are doing okay and the problems are more in the front row, back row, and kicking from 9 at present


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Its a certainty that Scotland are going to roll over for Ireland tomorrow isnt it..... :?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:57 pm 
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I don't think so, indeed they beat them in the last 6N, albeit tomorrow it's at the Aviva. Scotland do need a new model of staying in the game though, Ireland will not give such easy chances to contest their rucks, and whilst Ireland tend to need a decent number of rucks to actually score any points they're unlikely to prove as toothless as England.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:01 pm 
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I hope your right and objectively Scotland have the win in them..I just wonder if the elation of the win two weeks ago will make it hard for them to get their heads in the game especially away from home.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
Its a certainty that Scotland are going to roll over for Ireland tomorrow isnt it..... :?


If the Scots were out of contention for the 6N I'd be inclined to agree (they always want to stop us winning), but if Scotland got a big win then they'd put themselves in prime position to win the 6N- which would seem bizarre considering what this was place was like after Wales vs Scotland :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Well...

He passes ridiculously flat on the gainline. His tactical kicking is top notch, he defends just fine for a 10. He reads the game well and brings multiple options into the game with his excellent passing.

Unfortunately he can't win the game on his own off the back foot when his back row are getting manshamed...

I would agree with you on the breaks thing, but it seems Eddie doesn't want his half backs to offer any sustained running threat.


I'm actually happy with the current situation but not sold on Ford's kicking from hand. When there is no pressure (ie much weaker opposition, England in comfortable place on scoreboard) it is but when under pressure it's not eg Scotland straight to Hogg and Russell in lots of space and time (so no hang time) each time which was perfect for the Scots and in other matches often the same or errors on the full - with the pressure off though those kicks suddenly metamorphose into wonderful touch finds or turning the screw. Also restarts are down what I'd hope, again lacking hang time to put pressure on. I do however think he is a better defender than given credit for, while not a big hitter, he is getting driven back less in the tackle now and does make his tackles.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:13 pm 
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I'm expecting a Jock capitulation and a five pointer for Ireland this weekend

Ireland at home at the breakdown in terms of intensity and accuracy is a totally different prospect to them away


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Xin wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Well...

He passes ridiculously flat on the gainline. His tactical kicking is top notch, he defends just fine for a 10. He reads the game well and brings multiple options into the game with his excellent passing.

Unfortunately he can't win the game on his own off the back foot when his back row are getting manshamed...

I would agree with you on the breaks thing, but it seems Eddie doesn't want his half backs to offer any sustained running threat.


I'm actually happy with the current situation but not sold on Ford's kicking from hand. When there is no pressure (ie much weaker opposition, England in comfortable place on scoreboard) it is but when under pressure it's not eg Scotland straight to Hogg and Russell in lots of space and time (so no hang time) each time which was perfect for the Scots and in other matches often the same or errors on the full - with the pressure off though those kicks suddenly metamorphose into wonderful touch finds or turning the screw. Also restarts are down what I'd hope, again lacking hang time to put pressure on. I do however think he is a better defender than given credit for, while not a big hitter, he is getting driven back less in the tackle now and does make his tackles.


Our problems don't stem from the FF axis - yes, they could both offer a bigger threat with ball in hand, but, in terms of our weaknesses they are well down the pecking order - The abortion that is our back row and the weaknesses in our front row are far bigger problems. Even our ponderous SHs aren't the ones that have caused our two losses.

Get the breakdown sorted and the backs will look far better - get some go forward from the pack, and they'll look excellent.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Xin wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Well...

He passes ridiculously flat on the gainline. His tactical kicking is top notch, he defends just fine for a 10. He reads the game well and brings multiple options into the game with his excellent passing.

Unfortunately he can't win the game on his own off the back foot when his back row are getting manshamed...

I would agree with you on the breaks thing, but it seems Eddie doesn't want his half backs to offer any sustained running threat.


I'm actually happy with the current situation but not sold on Ford's kicking from hand. When there is no pressure (ie much weaker opposition, England in comfortable place on scoreboard) it is but when under pressure it's not eg Scotland straight to Hogg and Russell in lots of space and time (so no hang time) each time which was perfect for the Scots and in other matches often the same or errors on the full - with the pressure off though those kicks suddenly metamorphose into wonderful touch finds or turning the screw. Also restarts are down what I'd hope, again lacking hang time to put pressure on. I do however think he is a better defender than given credit for, while not a big hitter, he is getting driven back less in the tackle now and does make his tackles.


So much of the criticism I read on here seems to be about players who I assume are playing to a plan. I just don't believe that a guy who spends his whole life can't put a restart on a sixpence 9 times out of 10. Surely Ford is being told to kick long so we take some territory and put pressure on the receiver, rather than unable to accurately put up a contestable kick from a static position under no pressure? Similarly I don't think Care becomes unable to spot a gap when he puts on an England shirt, he's been told not to snipe much. It's like ejaculating every time Billy makes the most carries - all the play goes through him so unless he's sitting on the touchline he makes the most carries by default.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:40 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
I hope your right and objectively Scotland have the win in them..I just wonder if the elation of the win two weeks ago will make it hard for them to get their heads in the game especially away from home.


Ireland are clear favourites. But Scotland beat England with very little coming directly from Hogg, on any given day Hogg might get you two tries that aren't really on and whilst Scotland might need just that it isn't mission impossible.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Xin wrote:
I do however think he is a better defender than given credit for, while not a big hitter, he is getting driven back less in the tackle now and does make his tackles.


Ford does give up ground in contact, really how could he not. Scotland have just shown though you can give up ground in contact and have your flankers swoop in, on the off chance you pick flankers anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:46 pm 
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There's not many fly halves around who don't give up ground to ball carriers twice their size.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:58 pm 
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piquant wrote:
I don't think so, indeed they beat them in the last 6N, albeit tomorrow it's at the Aviva. Scotland do need a new model of staying in the game though, Ireland will not give such easy chances to contest their rucks, and whilst Ireland tend to need a decent number of rucks to actually score any points they're unlikely to prove as toothless as England.

Ireland were as crap as England in their visit to Murrayfield last season. At home they're an entirely different animal as are Scotland on the road. Stephen Ferris called it when he said that Scotland would need to get every decision and that was highly unlikely in Dublin.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:09 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
I'm expecting a Jock capitulation and a five pointer for Ireland this weekend

Ireland at home at the breakdown in terms of intensity and accuracy is a totally different prospect to them away

Virtual certainty imo, Scotland have probably had their "Cup final" so to speak.

Even if Ireland only manage a non-BP win, England still really need a 5 pointer with some p/d thrown in to have any real chance of winning the title at Twickenham.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:02 pm 
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I don’t think Ireland or England winning is a certainty?

Just watching a bit of saints v bath- broussow appears to be made of glass, hopefully not another bum signing.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
I'm expecting a Jock capitulation and a five pointer for Ireland this weekend

Ireland at home at the breakdown in terms of intensity and accuracy is a totally different prospect to them away

Virtual certainty imo, Scotland have probably had their "Cup final" so to speak.

Even if Ireland only manage a non-BP win, England still really need a 5 pointer with some p/d thrown in to have any real chance of winning the title at Twickenham.


Both games tomorrow are very hard to call.

Unless Ireland get a bonus point win which would make it impossible to catch them, there is still everything to play for and England need to go hell for leather for the bonus point.

Scotland could do us a favour, but I think that’s less likely.

That said, I don’t think Ireland are as good as they’re being built up to be. They struggled against France and Stockdale’s last minute intercept try put the gloss on the win against Wales which was in the balance until the end of the game.

If Scotland play at their best, they know they are capable of beating Ireland and Wales showed that Ireland are not impregnable at the Aviva.

As for us, we just need to go for it. Anything less than a convincing win is not good enough.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:29 pm 
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What was odd about Ireland Vs France was the number of one out passes the Irish made. And it's far from the only time they've run that game against France. Yes Ireland want to control the ruck, and control a lot of them, but they seem to take it to extreme against Les Bleus


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Scrumhead wrote:
Both games tomorrow are very hard to call.

Unless Ireland get a bonus point win which would make it impossible to catch them, there is still everything to play for and England need to go hell for leather for the bonus point.

If Ireland get a BP win they're on 19 points. England can finish on 19 points if they BP France & Ireland.

Basically, unless Ireland drop a BP tomorrow England have to hammer France and Ireland to secure the title on points difference win.

Open to any correction.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:42 pm 
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I'd like to beat France and Ireland of course, but now the slam is gone I don't really care if we finish 1st or 2nd, it's more about the side delivering coherent performances


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:56 pm 
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As I have said, let us concentrate on ruining St Patrick's Day by stuffing an Irish Grand Slam, with the attendant glee that accompanies us f**king it up.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:05 am 
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Xin wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
I honestly think the whole 'drop Ford and bugger up one of the working combinations to achieve it' is based largely on the impression that Ford is not manly enough and doesn't kick goals.

Its f**king bizarre.

I wouldn't be for moving Farrell to 10, he is a driving force at 12, but equally Ford isn't doing anything. The way people some people talk about him doesn't match up to his performances at all. I think some people like him just for not being Farrell.

He is little better than Ronan O'Gara in defence. He rarely makes breaks or even half-breaks. He appears to wilt entirely in the big test matches and is getting subbed recently. He can pass, well he's a flyhalf so...and he can put in the odd good tactical kick, not that often mind. People talk about vision, what good is it if it's not significantly impacting the game and it isn't.

I wouldn't be dropping Ford either, but more because there's no one else rather than anything he's actually doing.


Well...

He passes ridiculously flat on the gainline. His tactical kicking is top notch, he defends just fine for a 10. He reads the game well and brings multiple options into the game with his excellent passing.

Unfortunately he can't win the game on his own off the back foot when his back row are getting manshamed...

I would agree with you on the breaks thing, but it seems Eddie doesn't want his half backs to offer any sustained running threat.


I'm actually happy with the current situation but not sold on Ford's kicking from hand. When there is no pressure (ie much weaker opposition, England in comfortable place on scoreboard) it is but when under pressure it's not eg Scotland straight to Hogg and Russell in lots of space and time (so no hang time) each time which was perfect for the Scots and in other matches often the same or errors on the full - with the pressure off though those kicks suddenly metamorphose into wonderful touch finds or turning the screw. Also restarts are down what I'd hope, again lacking hang time to put pressure on. I do however think he is a better defender than given credit for, while not a big hitter, he is getting driven back less in the tackle now and does make his tackles.


Slowly the English public wake up to the myth of George Ford.







He'll be sublime and mom just to spite me now. Though I doubt it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:07 am 
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Alternatively, it's weird how there's a handful of people who bleat about George Ford as soon as they get a chance, but go very quiet for the large number of games where he's good-to-great.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:20 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Alternatively, it's weird how there's a handful of people who bleat about George Ford as soon as they get a chance, but go very quiet for the large number of games where he's good-to-great.

No point banging on about it here where most posters highly rate him. It's nice to encourage others if they begin to see the light though.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:13 am 
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pandion wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Alternatively, it's weird how there's a handful of people who bleat about George Ford as soon as they get a chance, but go very quiet for the large number of games where he's good-to-great.

No point banging on about it here where most posters highly rate him. It's nice to encourage others if they begin to see the light though.


You sound like DAC.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:15 am 
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Soft red for Timmy Harrison, not really impressed with Catts football behaviour either.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:01 am 
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Agreed. However, the whole incident including the ‘headbutt’ was very football-esque.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:08 am 
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When people are watching someone like Ford in the 12221 system we use with no significant carrying options tending to be in the 12 or 13 shirt what are you expecting to see? I think Ford (along with Farrell) does a pretty good job calling the attacks and he really engages the defence. If more positive things aren't happening inside and outside him he can't suddenly respond to that by making 5 linebreaks a game. The kicking could improve, but there are more problems at 9 than with Ford


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:54 am 
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Nasty double spear tackle in the France/England u20s game last night.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... 20s-grand/


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