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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:26 am 
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I just don't think he can keep things the same and expect us to get better. He has to bring in a few to cover injuries and he said yesterday some may have played their last game as well so I'm expecting a fair few changes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:50 am 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Happy to be corrected on Itoje.

Will fight people to the death with paperclips over how bad Kruis was.


Kruis was pretty rank. Made his tackles, but that was about it


The ESPN stats had him making 3 carries for 1 metre, and the knockon under no pressure was obvious to all


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:51 am 
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Anyone know what the possession and territory stats looked like?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:55 am 
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Petros wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Happy to be corrected on Itoje.

Will fight people to the death with paperclips over how bad Kruis was.


Kruis was pretty rank. Made his tackles, but that was about it


The ESPN stats had him making 3 carries for 1 metre, and the knockon under no pressure was obvious to all


That was a shocker. He really does pile into rucks though and we were much better there yesterday. I wouldn't have had him over Launch but he's worth having in the squad, especially when the next option is Charlie Ewels.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:57 am 
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forrester wrote:
I just don't think he can keep things the same and expect us to get better. He has to bring in a few to cover injuries and he said yesterday some may have played their last game as well so I'm expecting a fair few changes.


We've lost 3 games relatively narrowly. Fresher players could easily have seen all 3 of those turn into wins. There's nothing to be gained in bringing in a worse player, who's playing better because he's fresh, tiring him out, and then seeing that when he's knackered, he's worse than the guy who had in the first place.

Armand has played his last game, he's only in due to multiple injuries, and there's younger players more likely to get a later look in. Wigglesworth has hopefully played his last, as Eddie will bring in proper cover for Youngs now he's got time (his own fault though). Don't think there'll be others.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:57 am 
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Dobbin wrote:
Anyone know what the possession and territory stats looked like?


We did great stat wise. More possession, territory, metres made, clean breaks etc. Moral victory I'd say


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:30 am 
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AWC final postponed


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:53 am 
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Just seen the full EJ post match press conference on Beanyman's YT channel

Had to laugh when the press guys were asking thinly veiled questions about older guys being past it, and EJ just used it as an opportunity to take a swipe at the younger guys not being able to learn enough in time for the World Cup :lol: :roll:

Bit of a joke really, now is the time for him to stop dicking around with all these pisstake selections like Graham and Vellacott, not to mention the U20 kids that clearly won't be ready for the WC, and actually identify players that can replace the has-beens in the squad


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:03 am 
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So for South Africa who should the back row selections be?

Options for 8 Simmonds, Armand, Mercer (if fit), Chisholm (if fit), Clifford (if fit); Hughes & Billy V both broken
flankers Robshaw (rest him?), Underworsley (sick note), Haskell (aging), Graham (????), Thompson (31 and uncapped), Jack Willis or poaches like Rhodes (if qualified by then) or O'Connor?

Or will Eddie call up Brad Shields in the way he did with Piers Francis?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:09 am 
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"Aww mate, we've been keeping tabs on Brad for a while now, he's a tough old bugger, at least 30% fitter than the rest of our squad, a real street fighter, he comes from tough stock down in New Zealand, they breed them well, Dylan thinks he'll fit right into the squad just like Teimana"


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:17 am 
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On the plus side, yesterday. We actually scored 3 pretty good tries - and very nearly a 4th (bar a great tap tackle of Daly).

Their scored one superb try, one that should, obviously have been disallowed and one fluky one that bounced off the his knee when he was trying to get his hands to it.

So, even though the midfield was a bit stodgy most of the time, we still did enough to find Daly and May in space and create chances. And, aside from their superb try, our defence looked reasonable.

Scrum looked a bit creaky and we still gave away too many turnovers and daft penalties - but no more penalties than the Irish - and many of the Irish ones were due to pressure (hence the yellow card).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:48 am 
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Stats wise turnovers is the biggest difference between the two sides (apart from score obv)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:21 pm 
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booji boy wrote:
Excuse the interruption gentlemen, and I'm not wanting to kick you lads when you're down, but one thing that stood out for me in today's match was your first two tries were scored when the ref had called advantage. It's like they only had the courage to chance their arm under the safety of advantage knowing it would be called back if they f**ked it up. Otherwise the attack was slow, ponderous and predictable. They came alive in the final 10 minutes but by then it was a lost cause.


Yep, completely agree. Not enough creative thought or the cojones to pull of genuinely exciting attacking moves.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:25 pm 
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We're in dangerous waters right now. South Africa are going to be a very serious prospect at home and with some of their chicken runners back. 3 tests there with a knackered side then onto the All Blacks...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:58 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
On the plus side, yesterday. We actually scored 3 pretty good tries - and very nearly a 4th (bar a great tap tackle of Daly).

Their scored one superb try, one that should, obviously have been disallowed and one fluky one that bounced off the his knee when he was trying to get his hands to it.

So, even though the midfield was a bit stodgy most of the time, we still did enough to find Daly and May in space and create chances. And, aside from their superb try, our defence looked reasonable.

Scrum looked a bit creaky and we still gave away too many turnovers and daft penalties - but no more penalties than the Irish - and many of the Irish ones were due to pressure (hence the yellow card).


Was that the second one, where the TMO said he had reviewed all passes but the only replay of the final pass was cut short before the best angle?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Who is coaching the backs to stand so deep behind the half backs? Time and after time yesterday saw England going forward with passes going to players 10 m behind Ford or Farrell with a number of those being dropped or going behind the player


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:59 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Excuse the interruption gentlemen, and I'm not wanting to kick you lads when you're down, but one thing that stood out for me in today's match was your first two tries were scored when the ref had called advantage. It's like they only had the courage to chance their arm under the safety of advantage knowing it would be called back if they f**ked it up. Otherwise the attack was slow, ponderous and predictable. They came alive in the final 10 minutes but by then it was a lost cause.


Yep, completely agree. Not enough creative thought or the cojones to pull of genuinely exciting attacking moves.


We also looked a different team when Ford was on.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Petros wrote:
Who is coaching the backs to stand so deep behind the half backs? Time and after time yesterday saw England going forward with passes going to players 10 m behind Ford or Farrell with a number of those being dropped or going behind the player


Rugby. League.

Teams just drift off it, complete madness.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Ruck marks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thoughts.

We were heavily resourcing the ruck in the first half I believe, but the Irish were smart, and really weren't competing hard for turnovers, meaning we were constantly under resourced in attack. Our attack often looked very poor, and going far too deep. Farrell runs too hot and cold for my liking, sometimes he'll run, and look good doing it, but so often the defence can just ignore him, since he's looking only sideways, crabs sideways, and passes, all whilst very deep. Then at other times he'll get it just right. Ford on the other hand nearly always takes it right up to the line and the defence always takes him seriously. Both made errors today, but I'd still personally like to see Ford with Teo and Joseph. Or of course, Farrell continuing to improve his running game (and actually combining the passing and running, so fixing defenders then giving the pass).

We blew so many chances it's not even funny, which is a repeat really of previous games. A slight lack of cutting edge, and a very slow to organise attack. If this is due to fatigue due to heavy training, it'll hopefully come good when we actually have a proper conditioning program aiming for players to peak for games. We still make some bad choices though, and whilst fatigued might be able to explain this, giving tap and go carries to Itoje and Robshaw, after 70 minutes or more, just seems insane to me.

In terms of individuals, whilst the scrum struggled a little, the Irish are probably one of the best scrummaging sides out there. I'd give Sinckler further starts, and look to move on from Cole even on the bench. I was expecting to see some serious impact from Cole, to make us all realise it's just that he's shattered, but there was no apparent reaction. Let's see if Williams can continue to push hard. Kruis was busy, especially early in the 2nd half when every ruck just seemed to come his way, but I believe he's not been with England for at least some of the time, so will likely be fresher than Launchbury, and yet it didn't feel like he was a significant step up. I wonder if this is Eddie reverting by to Kruis, or trying to use Kruis as a fresher player in the hope of getting something out of this game. James Haskell/Chris Robshaw proved for me the importance of having proper flankers. Sam Simmonds slightly underwhelmed, neither fulfilling the big carrier role, nor the extra flanker role that well. His pace could still be interesting on the flanks though, worth continuing with.

I'm not as despondent as many, but if it turns out the players are being beasted for no long term gains, then I'm worried, I guess we'll only know come the world cup.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:25 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Petros wrote:
Who is coaching the backs to stand so deep behind the half backs? Time and after time yesterday saw England going forward with passes going to players 10 m behind Ford or Farrell with a number of those being dropped or going behind the player


Rugby. League.

Teams just drift off it, complete madness.


It works if the front rank are genuine threats but we're giving it to someone stood still and already turning to give the ball out the back. It's so easy to read you can ignore them completely.
Contrast that to Aki's break for Standers try.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:28 pm 
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geordie_6 wrote:
ovalball wrote:
On the plus side, yesterday. We actually scored 3 pretty good tries - and very nearly a 4th (bar a great tap tackle of Daly).

Their scored one superb try, one that should, obviously have been disallowed and one fluky one that bounced off the his knee when he was trying to get his hands to it.

So, even though the midfield was a bit stodgy most of the time, we still did enough to find Daly and May in space and create chances. And, aside from their superb try, our defence looked reasonable.

Scrum looked a bit creaky and we still gave away too many turnovers and daft penalties - but no more penalties than the Irish - and many of the Irish ones were due to pressure (hence the yellow card).


Was that the second one, where the TMO said he had reviewed all passes but the only replay of the final pass was cut short before the best angle?


The 1st one where there is a clear knock on as they both jump for the ball.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:45 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Keith wrote:
Good points, EC. Not sold on the idea of Daly at FB, but agree re Loz and the journeyman issue.


It is prevelant everywhere in English sport. The refusal to drop 'big-name' players for players who are in better form or just plain better is probably even more common in football and cricket than in rugby, which is saying something.

What's your solution to the full back problem then?


I agree with this wholeheartedly. The supporters buy into it as well, with all the nonsense about test match animals. Really thought Eddie might be different, but he appears to have stuck with the same old faces, playing a shit gameplan and being mercilessly flogged.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Ruck marks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thoughts.

We were heavily resourcing the ruck in the first half I believe, but the Irish were smart, and really weren't competing hard for turnovers, meaning we were constantly under resourced in attack. Our attack often looked very poor, and going far too deep. Farrell runs too hot and cold for my liking, sometimes he'll run, and look good doing it, but so often the defence can just ignore him, since he's looking only sideways, crabs sideways, and passes, all whilst very deep. Then at other times he'll get it just right. Ford on the other hand nearly always takes it right up to the line and the defence always takes him seriously. Both made errors today, but I'd still personally like to see Ford with Teo and Joseph. Or of course, Farrell continuing to improve his running game (and actually combining the passing and running, so fixing defenders then giving the pass).

We blew so many chances it's not even funny, which is a repeat really of previous games. A slight lack of cutting edge, and a very slow to organise attack. If this is due to fatigue due to heavy training, it'll hopefully come good when we actually have a proper conditioning program aiming for players to peak for games. We still make some bad choices though, and whilst fatigued might be able to explain this, giving tap and go carries to Itoje and Robshaw, after 70 minutes or more, just seems insane to me.

In terms of individuals, whilst the scrum struggled a little, the Irish are probably one of the best scrummaging sides out there. I'd give Sinckler further starts, and look to move on from Cole even on the bench. I was expecting to see some serious impact from Cole, to make us all realise it's just that he's shattered, but there was no apparent reaction. Let's see if Williams can continue to push hard. Kruis was busy, especially early in the 2nd half when every ruck just seemed to come his way, but I believe he's not been with England for at least some of the time, so will likely be fresher than Launchbury, and yet it didn't feel like he was a significant step up. I wonder if this is Eddie reverting by to Kruis, or trying to use Kruis as a fresher player in the hope of getting something out of this game. James Haskell/Chris Robshaw proved for me the importance of having proper flankers. Sam Simmonds slightly underwhelmed, neither fulfilling the big carrier role, nor the extra flanker role that well. His pace could still be interesting on the flanks though, worth continuing with.

I'm not as despondent as many, but if it turns out the players are being beasted for no long term gains, then I'm worried, I guess we'll only know come the world cup.


Cheers. On the last point, I just can't believe that the plan would be to beast players during a 6N with the long term/RWC view in mind. Prep during a major tournament can surely only be to win the game at the weekend.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Ruck marks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thoughts.

We were heavily resourcing the ruck in the first half I believe, but the Irish were smart, and really weren't competing hard for turnovers, meaning we were constantly under resourced in attack. Our attack often looked very poor, and going far too deep. Farrell runs too hot and cold for my liking, sometimes he'll run, and look good doing it, but so often the defence can just ignore him, since he's looking only sideways, crabs sideways, and passes, all whilst very deep. Then at other times he'll get it just right. Ford on the other hand nearly always takes it right up to the line and the defence always takes him seriously. Both made errors today, but I'd still personally like to see Ford with Teo and Joseph. Or of course, Farrell continuing to improve his running game (and actually combining the passing and running, so fixing defenders then giving the pass).

We blew so many chances it's not even funny, which is a repeat really of previous games. A slight lack of cutting edge, and a very slow to organise attack. If this is due to fatigue due to heavy training, it'll hopefully come good when we actually have a proper conditioning program aiming for players to peak for games. We still make some bad choices though, and whilst fatigued might be able to explain this, giving tap and go carries to Itoje and Robshaw, after 70 minutes or more, just seems insane to me.

In terms of individuals, whilst the scrum struggled a little, the Irish are probably one of the best scrummaging sides out there. I'd give Sinckler further starts, and look to move on from Cole even on the bench. I was expecting to see some serious impact from Cole, to make us all realise it's just that he's shattered, but there was no apparent reaction. Let's see if Williams can continue to push hard. Kruis was busy, especially early in the 2nd half when every ruck just seemed to come his way, but I believe he's not been with England for at least some of the time, so will likely be fresher than Launchbury, and yet it didn't feel like he was a significant step up. I wonder if this is Eddie reverting by to Kruis, or trying to use Kruis as a fresher player in the hope of getting something out of this game. James Haskell/Chris Robshaw proved for me the importance of having proper flankers. Sam Simmonds slightly underwhelmed, neither fulfilling the big carrier role, nor the extra flanker role that well. His pace could still be interesting on the flanks though, worth continuing with.

I'm not as despondent as many, but if it turns out the players are being beasted for no long term gains, then I'm worried, I guess we'll only know come the world cup.


Cheers. On the last point, I just can't believe that the plan would be to beast players during a 6N with the long term/RWC view in mind. Prep during a major tournament can surely only be to win the game at the weekend.


Interview with the top sports scientist involved with England said that he's expecting a constant improvement in the players fitness between now and the rwc, rather than a big jump in the pre-rwc camp, which makes me think it could well be a long term thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Raggs wrote:

Interview with the top sports scientist involved with England said that he's expecting a constant improvement in the players fitness between now and the rwc, rather than a big jump in the pre-rwc camp, which makes me think it could well be a long term thing.


Oh absolutely. But surely that's the job of pre season camps and plans adhered to back at clubs. Any training during a 6N with the RWC in mind likely to negatively impact performance in the 6N surely would never be sanctioned


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Raggs wrote:

Interview with the top sports scientist involved with England said that he's expecting a constant improvement in the players fitness between now and the rwc, rather than a big jump in the pre-rwc camp, which makes me think it could well be a long term thing.


Oh absolutely. But surely that's the job of pre season camps and plans adhered to back at clubs. Any training during a 6N with the RWC in mind likely to negatively impact performance in the 6N surely would never be sanctioned


Well it's Eddies call, so I'd guess he'd have been happy to sanction it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Andy Farrell is getting a lot of praise right now, but only Scotland and Italy conceded more tries... The English attack in particular was dire, and we still scored 3.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:45 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Keith wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Keith wrote:
Good points, EC. Not sold on the idea of Daly at FB, but agree re Loz and the journeyman issue.


It is prevelant everywhere in English sport. The refusal to drop 'big-name' players for players who are in better form or just plain better is probably even more common in football and cricket than in rugby, which is saying something.

What's your solution to the full back problem then?

Full back I'm really not sure about (I had high hopes for Haley but that won't happen now). Daly could work but he needs some more recent experience there and I had thought of him as a 13 (Joseph must go, he's dire).


Yep I agree with Daly needing to move to 13. If only we could clone him and have him at 13, 11 and 15 :lol:
That's what having a rugby brain allows players to do, be adaptable. Some of our players are seriously thick fuckers, or they act like it on a rugby pitch.

Hartley was anonymous again. Why didn't he gather the troops in to a circle and give them a right bollocking after Ireland's first and second tries?

I was there, and I won't lie, I was very tempted to boo at full time. A few more pints and I would have. It was just not good enough from the players or the management.


FFS why would you boo your own team? Do you think any of the players weren’t trying 100% to win the match? Anyone who boos their own team is a disgrace in my book.

Wouldn’t like to have been in the trenches with you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:35 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:44 pm 
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SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


It's eminently recoverable for the thing that matters to Eddie, the rwc.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:47 pm 
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SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


The assumption you can beast players forever and they just get fitter is so out of date. A good beasting is fine for the odd occasion as a shock to the system after a break, but personalised programs based on how your body responds is what's needed. As you said look at the Irish, that's how their strength and conditioning is done. Sadly I suspect Eddie Jones will just think the players need to work harder.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:48 pm 
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SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.



Agreed, but it's also game minutes the players are having to put in by their clubs as well. It's no coincidence our Lions from last year (who less than a year ago were world class) are looking to limp.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:52 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


The assumption you can beast players forever and they just get fitter is so out of date. A good beasting is fine for the odd occasion as a shock to the system after a break, but personalised programs based on how your body responds is what's needed. As you said look at the Irish, that's how their strength and conditioning is done. Sadly I suspect Eddie Jones will just think the players need to work harder.


Do you know that the England players programs aren't personalised? The Irish were looking for peak performances in their games, there's a fair chance we weren't, but were looking at aiming at further games.


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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


The assumption you can beast players forever and they just get fitter is so out of date. A good beasting is fine for the odd occasion as a shock to the system after a break, but personalised programs based on how your body responds is what's needed. As you said look at the Irish, that's how their strength and conditioning is done. Sadly I suspect Eddie Jones will just think the players need to work harder.


Do you know that the England players programs aren't personalised? The Irish were looking for peak performances in their games, there's a fair chance we weren't, but were looking at aiming at further games.


Because of what's been reported on Eddie Jones and what he says. He says over and over again each period with England the players will work harder. Also they held a long open training session at Twickenham for the public to watch remember? It's been reported in a few places it was the most savage training session they had. And guess what? the England team have been slow responsively to everything ever since.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Because of what's been reported on Eddie Jones and what he says. He says over and over again each period with England the players will work harder. Also they held a long open training session at Twickenham for the public to watch remember? It's been reported in a few places it was the most savage training session they had. And guess what? the England team have been slow responsively to everything ever since.


I'm aware they're being beasted. I'm also aware that the head of sports science for England has said that they have a program in place to increase the players fitness by a large degree over the entire period leading upto the RWC, not just in the pre-rwc camp. What you haven't said, is whether there are individual programs also in place or not. 1 open session at Twickers, no matter how hard, doesn't tell you that.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Because of what's been reported on Eddie Jones and what he says. He says over and over again each period with England the players will work harder. Also they held a long open training session at Twickenham for the public to watch remember? It's been reported in a few places it was the most savage training session they had. And guess what? the England team have been slow responsively to everything ever since.


I'm aware they're being beasted. I'm also aware that the head of sports science for England has said that they have a program in place to increase the players fitness by a large degree over the entire period leading upto the RWC, not just in the pre-rwc camp. What you haven't said, is whether there are individual programs also in place or not. 1 open session at Twickers, no matter how hard, doesn't tell you that.



It's a gutsy call to plan fitness that far in advance , especially now EJ is saying that players have had their last England game.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:18 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Because of what's been reported on Eddie Jones and what he says. He says over and over again each period with England the players will work harder. Also they held a long open training session at Twickenham for the public to watch remember? It's been reported in a few places it was the most savage training session they had. And guess what? the England team have been slow responsively to everything ever since.


I'm aware they're being beasted. I'm also aware that the head of sports science for England has said that they have a program in place to increase the players fitness by a large degree over the entire period leading upto the RWC, not just in the pre-rwc camp. What you haven't said, is whether there are individual programs also in place or not. 1 open session at Twickers, no matter how hard, doesn't tell you that.



It's a gutsy call to plan fitness that far in advance , especially now EJ is saying that players have had their last England game.


It's hardly a big call from Eddie. Armand was how far down the pecking order? And we've got Chisholm and Willis yet to be tried out. Hopefully Wigglesworth was a stop gap because there was no one else with experience (Eddie's fault, but still). 2 players I'd not expect to see play for England again, and for whom there's probably been no effort to really improve their fitness.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Because of what's been reported on Eddie Jones and what he says. He says over and over again each period with England the players will work harder. Also they held a long open training session at Twickenham for the public to watch remember? It's been reported in a few places it was the most savage training session they had. And guess what? the England team have been slow responsively to everything ever since.


I'm aware they're being beasted. I'm also aware that the head of sports science for England has said that they have a program in place to increase the players fitness by a large degree over the entire period leading upto the RWC, not just in the pre-rwc camp. What you haven't said, is whether there are individual programs also in place or not. 1 open session at Twickers, no matter how hard, doesn't tell you that.



It's a gutsy call to plan fitness that far in advance , especially now EJ is saying that players have had their last England game.


It's hardly a big call from Eddie. Armand was how far down the pecking order? And we've got Chisholm and Willis yet to be tried out. Hopefully Wigglesworth was a stop gap because there was no one else with experience (Eddie's fault, but still). 2 players I'd not expect to see play for England again, and for whom there's probably been no effort to really improve their fitness.



I'd personally give Armand more try's. I'd prefer that to expecting Robshaw to get quicker.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
SaintK wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Look it's been a poor tournament, we've played with a poor back row which lack pace, there's been tactical issues on going wide to quickly and the breakdown is as much an issue of back row pace as it is referring interpretation (we should discuss how they couldn't adapt quickly separately).

But nothing is a disaster yet.

The players are flogged and looked very tired compared to the Irish yesterday. I'm not sure how that's recoverable.

So much this. They have been beasted, too much strength and conditioning and gym. Evidently some of the AP clubs have complained about it. Can’t see any of the players saying anything at £22k a match
EJ needs to have a serious review of what they have been doing pre match.


The assumption you can beast players forever and they just get fitter is so out of date. A good beasting is fine for the odd occasion as a shock to the system after a break, but personalised programs based on how your body responds is what's needed. As you said look at the Irish, that's how their strength and conditioning is done. Sadly I suspect Eddie Jones will just think the players need to work harder.


Do you know that the England players programs aren't personalised? The Irish were looking for peak performances in their games, there's a fair chance we weren't, but were looking at aiming at further games.


Excuse me posting on this thread but if you are buying the bullshit Eddie Jones is spinning you're going to need a bigger recycling bin.


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