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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Joost wrote:
TopNacker wrote:
Very disappointed to see Robshaw and Brown in, and Woodward not making it. Would have taken two of Armand, Rhodes or Mercer instead of Robshaw and Earl. Prefer Smith or Joe Simmonds to Redpath but maybe that is a Jock block which is always great fun. We need pace in the centres I hope Daly plays there.

Absolutely delighted to see Willis, Shields, Hill and in particular Mark Wilson get the trip. Was hoping to see Tommy Taylor too.


Can’t see Daly playing centre; would mean we would have to start with either Earle or Solomona with May (plus he’s listed as an outside back and we’ve selected a lot of centres).

Looks like there are plenty of candidates to take the 7 shirt and to become a 2nd/3rd choice S/H (two of our big issues). Whilst I’m not too sad we didn’t pick Woodward, it would’ve been good to have a look at another F/B too.

Daly?


Cips I reckon

Eddie today:

Quote:
'He's been doing some things that I've asked him to in the games. Now he's got to prove he's the best 10 or 15'


When was the last time Cips played 15? :?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:03 pm 
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I haven't seen much of Redpath - but I don't remember him being anything special in the U20s - Is he really at the level of a SA tour - or is this just us getting in before the Jocks. What does he bring to the table ?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:06 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
I haven't seen much of Redpath - but I don't remember him being anything special in the U20s - Is he really at the level of a SA tour - or is this just us getting in before the Jocks. What does he bring to the table ?


He's 18 and barely played any U20s really. Probably still technically in school. Probably a bit of showing him a bit of love before Scotland get involved.

Can't really see him getting a cap this tour though, unless they were desperate to tie him in.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
From what I've heard he's a very silky runner and distributor, a few Sale fans I know think he is similar to Greenwood in playing style. He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!

EDIT - I'm sure I read an article saying that Townsend had already spoken to him a few times, so there is a chance that Eddies giving him a bit of encouragement before Scotland come a-knocking :thumbup:


Last edited by 45jumper on Thu May 10, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:15 pm 
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45jumper wrote:
Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
From what I've heard he's a very silky runner and distributor, a few Sale fans I know think he is similar to Greenwood in playing style. He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!


So, if he looks good in training we might see him come on for a couple of minutes in the 3rd test :nod:


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
ovalball wrote:
I haven't seen much of Redpath - but I don't remember him being anything special in the U20s - Is he really at the level of a SA tour - or is this just us getting in before the Jocks. What does he bring to the table ?


He's 18 and barely played any U20s really. Probably still technically in school. Probably a bit of showing him a bit of love before Scotland get involved.

Can't really see him getting a cap this tour though, unless they were desperate to tie him in.
Rugbypass seem to think he's the next big thing: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/potentia ... uth-africa

Quote:
On Redpath and his inclusion as a non-apprentice, cap him.

Cap him, Eddie.

Seriously, cap him.

Don’t tell us we didn’t warn you.
Sounds like he was definitely at risk of going to Scotland: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... -1-4736148


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Joost wrote:
TopNacker wrote:
Very disappointed to see Robshaw and Brown in, and Woodward not making it. Would have taken two of Armand, Rhodes or Mercer instead of Robshaw and Earl. Prefer Smith or Joe Simmonds to Redpath but maybe that is a Jock block which is always great fun. We need pace in the centres I hope Daly plays there.

Absolutely delighted to see Willis, Shields, Hill and in particular Mark Wilson get the trip. Was hoping to see Tommy Taylor too.


Can’t see Daly playing centre; would mean we would have to start with either Earle or Solomona with May (plus he’s listed as an outside back and we’ve selected a lot of centres).

Looks like there are plenty of candidates to take the 7 shirt and to become a 2nd/3rd choice S/H (two of our big issues). Whilst I’m not too sad we didn’t pick Woodward, it would’ve been good to have a look at another F/B too.

Daly?


Cips I reckon

Eddie today:

Quote:
'He's been doing some things that I've asked him to in the games. Now he's got to prove he's the best 10 or 15'


When was the last time Cips played 15? :?


When playing S15?
Gopperth has shifted to FB rather than Cips when Wasps have needed to reshuffle in a game


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:47 pm 
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piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:14 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


Well, ironically if you asked him his best Eng performance, after Fra 01, he'll say Scot 99- when he played 8. Dallaglio was the issue- for a long time he didn't want to play at 8 and only 2000 onwards did he play there regularly. (despite often scrummaging at 8 wearing 6).


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:15 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


TBF to Jake I mentioned Hill first in response to it being said that Willis doesn't play 7 for his club so can't be 7 for England. I'm more of the opinion that the balance of the backrow is what matters most and was making the point that the Trinity swapped a lot in their early combos to find out who was best where.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:21 pm 
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crash 669 wrote:
backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


TBF to Jake I mentioned Hill first in response to it being said that Willis doesn't play 7 for his club so can't be 7 for England. I'm more of the opinion that the balance of the backrow is what matters most and was making the point that the Trinity swapped a lot in their early combos to find out who was best where.


Absolutely.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
Jake wrote:
Hilly got 14 caps at 8, 18 at 7 and 39 at 6- Lions- 3 at 7, 2 at 6.

Lol was first capped at 7 (when Clarke and Deano were in the side).


I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


Well, ironically if you asked him his best Eng performance, after Fra 01, he'll say Scot 99- when he played 8. Dallaglio was the issue- for a long time he didn't want to play at 8 and only 2000 onwards did he play there regularly. (despite often scrummaging at 8 wearing 6).


interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Worrying comments about Cips at 15, from what I heard recently Eddie can't stand him. The journo I spoke to is amazed he made the squad. Wonder if it's the usual mindgames and Eddie's testing him to see how he reacts to being played at 15.

Also, surely Hepburn or Obano over Mako who could do with a long summer on the beach


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:34 pm 
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matta25 wrote:
Worrying comments about Cips at 15, from what I heard recently Eddie can't stand him. The journo I spoke to is amazed he made the squad. Wonder if it's the usual mindgames and Eddie's testing him to see how he reacts to being played at 15.

Also, surely Hepburn or Obano over Mako who could do with a long summer on the beach
Did anyone say that besides the telegraph? On the RFU official announcement, he's listed under 'Inside Backs' not Fullbacks

Edit: seen the Eddie comments now


Last edited by Balls Out! on Thu May 10, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:38 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


Well, ironically if you asked him his best Eng performance, after Fra 01, he'll say Scot 99- when he played 8. Dallaglio was the issue- for a long time he didn't want to play at 8 and only 2000 onwards did he play there regularly. (despite often scrummaging at 8 wearing 6).


interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


My memory may be playing tricks, but as I recall it, LBND only really settled at 8 after he was "injured" and came back with about 2 stones more muscle mass on his upper body,


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:41 pm 
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backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

He doesn't get quite the same plaudits as others on that team, but fûck lewsey was good.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Petros wrote:
Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Joost wrote:
Can’t see Daly playing centre; would mean we would have to start with either Earle or Solomona with May (plus he’s listed as an outside back and we’ve selected a lot of centres).

Looks like there are plenty of candidates to take the 7 shirt and to become a 2nd/3rd choice S/H (two of our big issues). Whilst I’m not too sad we didn’t pick Woodward, it would’ve been good to have a look at another F/B too.

Daly?


Cips I reckon

Eddie today:

Quote:
'He's been doing some things that I've asked him to in the games. Now he's got to prove he's the best 10 or 15'


When was the last time Cips played 15? :?


When playing S15?
Gopperth has shifted to FB rather than Cips when Wasps have needed to reshuffle in a game

If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:07 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

He doesn't get quite the same plaudits as others on that team, but fûck lewsey was good.


He was, also what happened to Balshaw looked fantastic went on a lions tour and then everything went to pot.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:08 pm 
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45jumper wrote:
Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!



So Mallinder 2.0 then?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Playing him at 15 will show Jones either doesn't have a clue, would rather use the opportunity to destroy Cips than develop another England full back and misses out on the chance to improve England as an attacking force.
I would just about give up on England until the next bloke gets the job.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Cips best 10 in AP bar none. Will be wasted at 15 in more ways than one!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Quote:
Wasps fly-half Danny Cipriani has been included in a 34-man England squad


Image


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
45jumper wrote:
Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!



So Mallinder 2.0 then?


Please no!


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Playing him at 15 will show Jones either doesn't have a clue, would rather use the opportunity to destroy Cips than develop another England full back and misses out on the chance to improve England as an attacking force.
I would just about give up on England until the next bloke gets the job.

I can only see Cips doing well in that position if England are dominating. He'll be exposed if SA get on the front foot. Fly-half or bust for mine.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 pm 
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sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:45 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:56 pm 
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mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford or Farrell.


:P


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:28 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison

Speaking of poison..


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:39 pm 
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mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


Ford gets pushed around but at least gets his man, unlike Farrell. The guy who missed more tackles in this year's 6N than any player since some Italian bloke in 2000. I know stats like that are misleading but x(


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:16 am 
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matta25 wrote:
mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


Ford gets pushed around but at least gets his man, unlike Farrell. The guy who missed more tackles in this year's 6N than any player since some Italian bloke in 2000. I know stats like that are misleading but x(


Correct- ford will give a yard but good technique. Farrells defence is a myth, he misses loads and people only remember the big shot he gets.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:56 am 
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Jones admits it's all over and England have reverted to their normal squabbling, and over-talking under-achieving state.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... sh-players


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:40 am 
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Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:57 am 
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Thai guy wrote:
Jones admits it's all over and England have reverted to their normal squabbling, and over-talking under-achieving state.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... sh-players


*yawn*

Now piss off out of this thread you desperate attention whore.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:07 am 
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Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Eddie everytime, some of the greatest revisionism of all time regarding Lancaster. The micks are building him up as the second coming of Christ now he’s putting the cones out at Leinster.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:14 am 
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Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Jones, so far, but the jury will be out until the RWC. But while I've always been every critical of Lancaster, I have always maintained it was lack of experience of top level head coaching was his downfall and he had potential. He needed to run a top club first before the England job.

Lancaster's pluses

-Good record
-Good and consistent forward performances mostly
-Brought in numerous talented players mostly with success
-The year before the RWC he dropped Farrell and looked like he was really building a quality exciting team
-Team was consistently motivated

Lancaster minuses

-Dependence on forwards to win every game, never really got the backline going as a quality unit.
-This dependence is why he couldn't win the 6 Nations, the forwards would be gased out for a game
-This also led to England not really consistently being reliable to put points on the board outside of the boot.
-Poor RWC preparation,. He got it all wrong.
-Failed to manage his coaches and failed to be in charge of them
-Failed to create a style of play.
-Burgess being brought in undermined his whole culture thing about earning spots.
-That Wales game in 2013
-That Wales game in 2015
-Ruining the fitness with a bad fitness plan not right for Rugby in 2015
-Lots of gimmics instead of greta coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


Jones pluses

-2 6 Nations including a slam
-Equalled the all time record
-Gave England confidence
-Strong record against the Southern Hemisphere nations
-Clearly has (or had) a direction in mind for England

Jones negatives:

-To conservative
-A suspicion his methods are out of date
-No attack coach
-A suspicion he isn't particularly good at identifying the best players
-Not giving talented young players a chance, even when those players appear to be the solution to his problems.
-Hasn't really been successful in integrating
-Been behind the game in identifying his own teams flaws and dealing with them
-Contradicting himself and creating more problems in the England team
-A suspicion his only idea for improving the team is making them "work harder" which is now over doing it.
-Shields potentially undermining the culture he has made.
-Lots of gimmics in place of great coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


I don't mean the list of negatives to be longer, they are just more specific over the general good


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:56 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Jones, so far, but the jury will be out until the RWC. But while I've always been every critical of Lancaster, I have always maintained it was lack of experience of top level head coaching was his downfall and he had potential. He needed to run a top club first before the England job.

Lancaster's pluses

-Good record
-Good and consistent forward performances mostly
-Brought in numerous talented players mostly with success
-The year before the RWC he dropped Farrell and looked like he was really building a quality exciting team
-Team was consistently motivated

Lancaster minuses

-Dependence on forwards to win every game, never really got the backline going as a quality unit.
-This dependence is why he couldn't win the 6 Nations, the forwards would be gased out for a game
-This also led to England not really consistently being reliable to put points on the board outside of the boot.
-Poor RWC preparation,. He got it all wrong.
-Failed to manage his coaches and failed to be in charge of them
-Failed to create a style of play.
-Burgess being brought in undermined his whole culture thing about earning spots.
-That Wales game in 2013
-That Wales game in 2015
-Ruining the fitness with a bad fitness plan not right for Rugby in 2015
-Lots of gimmics instead of greta coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


Jones pluses

-2 6 Nations including a slam
-Equalled the all time record
-Gave England confidence
-Strong record against the Southern Hemisphere nations
-Clearly has (or had) a direction in mind for England

Jones negatives:

-To conservative
-A suspicion his methods are out of date
-No attack coach
-A suspicion he isn't particularly good at identifying the best players
-Not giving talented young players a chance, even when those players appear to be the solution to his problems.
-Hasn't really been successful in integrating
-Been behind the game in identifying his own teams flaws and dealing with them
-Contradicting himself and creating more problems in the England team
-A suspicion his only idea for improving the team is making them "work harder" which is now over doing it.
-Shields potentially undermining the culture he has made.
-Lots of gimmics in place of great coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


I don't mean the list of negatives to be longer, they are just more specific over the general good


Very decent summary.

FWIW, I believe Lanny would thrive back in a pure coaching role. Rob Andrew's comments about him doing too much managing of peripheral stuff is accurate.

I also believe Lanny's ethics are missed a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:24 am 
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I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.


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