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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Worrying comments about Cips at 15, from what I heard recently Eddie can't stand him. The journo I spoke to is amazed he made the squad. Wonder if it's the usual mindgames and Eddie's testing him to see how he reacts to being played at 15.

Also, surely Hepburn or Obano over Mako who could do with a long summer on the beach


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:34 pm 
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matta25 wrote:
Worrying comments about Cips at 15, from what I heard recently Eddie can't stand him. The journo I spoke to is amazed he made the squad. Wonder if it's the usual mindgames and Eddie's testing him to see how he reacts to being played at 15.

Also, surely Hepburn or Obano over Mako who could do with a long summer on the beach
Did anyone say that besides the telegraph? On the RFU official announcement, he's listed under 'Inside Backs' not Fullbacks

Edit: seen the Eddie comments now


Last edited by Balls Out! on Thu May 10, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:38 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:
Jake wrote:
piquant wrote:
I remember Hill being at 6 in the then Jade Stadium, not a game he'll likely look back on with fond memories, when was his other Lions cap at 6?


2nd Test Aus 2001.


jake, we all know you are a huge Hill fanboi - but were you ever convinced on him when he played internationally as an 8 ?
for me, 6 or 7 didnt' really matter as he was always immense then - but at 8 ? who were the flankers then if he was an 8, Back & Worsley ?


Well, ironically if you asked him his best Eng performance, after Fra 01, he'll say Scot 99- when he played 8. Dallaglio was the issue- for a long time he didn't want to play at 8 and only 2000 onwards did he play there regularly. (despite often scrummaging at 8 wearing 6).


interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


My memory may be playing tricks, but as I recall it, LBND only really settled at 8 after he was "injured" and came back with about 2 stones more muscle mass on his upper body,


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:41 pm 
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backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

He doesn't get quite the same plaudits as others on that team, but fûck lewsey was good.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Petros wrote:
Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
Joost wrote:
Can’t see Daly playing centre; would mean we would have to start with either Earle or Solomona with May (plus he’s listed as an outside back and we’ve selected a lot of centres).

Looks like there are plenty of candidates to take the 7 shirt and to become a 2nd/3rd choice S/H (two of our big issues). Whilst I’m not too sad we didn’t pick Woodward, it would’ve been good to have a look at another F/B too.

Daly?


Cips I reckon

Eddie today:

Quote:
'He's been doing some things that I've asked him to in the games. Now he's got to prove he's the best 10 or 15'


When was the last time Cips played 15? :?


When playing S15?
Gopperth has shifted to FB rather than Cips when Wasps have needed to reshuffle in a game

If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:07 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
Jake wrote:
backrow wrote:

interesting - didn't know that about LD
for all his amazing strengths and top skillz, Hill's hard yards trhough traffic crash ballness, was not too near the top of the pile, compared to LD or Worsley or Billy V etc.

my fave thing about Hill, was that it wasn't the flash stuff or amazing breaks - just consistently making the tackle, ripping the ball, being a nuisance to the opposition, being there for the linky pass etc. absolute best 'unseen work' type, and what he actually did so well was best seen when in fact he wasn't playing and England were fecking up and playing like dogshit for some umbeknownst reason.


Scroll to 3.54 on here...also, you mentioned Hill's linking- the try before his is worth watching too- one of the best piece of support play I have ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

He doesn't get quite the same plaudits as others on that team, but fûck lewsey was good.


He was, also what happened to Balshaw looked fantastic went on a lions tour and then everything went to pot.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:08 pm 
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45jumper wrote:
Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!



So Mallinder 2.0 then?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Playing him at 15 will show Jones either doesn't have a clue, would rather use the opportunity to destroy Cips than develop another England full back and misses out on the chance to improve England as an attacking force.
I would just about give up on England until the next bloke gets the job.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Cips best 10 in AP bar none. Will be wasted at 15 in more ways than one!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Quote:
Wasps fly-half Danny Cipriani has been included in a 34-man England squad


Image


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
45jumper wrote:
Redpath is still a year young for the U20's, I think he's only just turned 19, may even still be 18.
He can slot in at 10 but is viewed almost exclusively as a 12. H'es a decent size as well, plenty of scope to put some bulk on without it affecting his game. Don't know much more than that I'm afraid!



So Mallinder 2.0 then?


Please no!


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
If Cips gets played at 15 I will be gutted

Yeah it'll be a huge waste. He's not the guy you want as the last line of defence or taking those dodgy 50-50 high balls. We need him treading water [copyright Austin Healy] in the pocket looking to fire out those passes to put our carriers on the front foot or sending it out the back for Daly to get on the outside etc.

Playing him at 15 will show Jones either doesn't have a clue, would rather use the opportunity to destroy Cips than develop another England full back and misses out on the chance to improve England as an attacking force.
I would just about give up on England until the next bloke gets the job.

I can only see Cips doing well in that position if England are dominating. He'll be exposed if SA get on the front foot. Fly-half or bust for mine.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 pm 
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sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:45 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:56 pm 
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mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford or Farrell.


:P


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:28 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison

Speaking of poison..


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:39 pm 
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mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


Ford gets pushed around but at least gets his man, unlike Farrell. The guy who missed more tackles in this year's 6N than any player since some Italian bloke in 2000. I know stats like that are misleading but x(


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:16 am 
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matta25 wrote:
mr flaps wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
sorry but if Cips can't defend then he's no good at 10 or 15

I suspect he'll be gone after this tour anyway, the bloke is pure poison



He’s a better defender than Ford.


Ford gets pushed around but at least gets his man, unlike Farrell. The guy who missed more tackles in this year's 6N than any player since some Italian bloke in 2000. I know stats like that are misleading but x(


Correct- ford will give a yard but good technique. Farrells defence is a myth, he misses loads and people only remember the big shot he gets.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:56 am 
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Jones admits it's all over and England have reverted to their normal squabbling, and over-talking under-achieving state.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... sh-players


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:40 am 
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Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:57 am 
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Thai guy wrote:
Jones admits it's all over and England have reverted to their normal squabbling, and over-talking under-achieving state.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... sh-players


*yawn*

Now piss off out of this thread you desperate attention whore.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:07 am 
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Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Eddie everytime, some of the greatest revisionism of all time regarding Lancaster. The micks are building him up as the second coming of Christ now he’s putting the cones out at Leinster.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:14 am 
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Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Jones, so far, but the jury will be out until the RWC. But while I've always been every critical of Lancaster, I have always maintained it was lack of experience of top level head coaching was his downfall and he had potential. He needed to run a top club first before the England job.

Lancaster's pluses

-Good record
-Good and consistent forward performances mostly
-Brought in numerous talented players mostly with success
-The year before the RWC he dropped Farrell and looked like he was really building a quality exciting team
-Team was consistently motivated

Lancaster minuses

-Dependence on forwards to win every game, never really got the backline going as a quality unit.
-This dependence is why he couldn't win the 6 Nations, the forwards would be gased out for a game
-This also led to England not really consistently being reliable to put points on the board outside of the boot.
-Poor RWC preparation,. He got it all wrong.
-Failed to manage his coaches and failed to be in charge of them
-Failed to create a style of play.
-Burgess being brought in undermined his whole culture thing about earning spots.
-That Wales game in 2013
-That Wales game in 2015
-Ruining the fitness with a bad fitness plan not right for Rugby in 2015
-Lots of gimmics instead of greta coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


Jones pluses

-2 6 Nations including a slam
-Equalled the all time record
-Gave England confidence
-Strong record against the Southern Hemisphere nations
-Clearly has (or had) a direction in mind for England

Jones negatives:

-To conservative
-A suspicion his methods are out of date
-No attack coach
-A suspicion he isn't particularly good at identifying the best players
-Not giving talented young players a chance, even when those players appear to be the solution to his problems.
-Hasn't really been successful in integrating
-Been behind the game in identifying his own teams flaws and dealing with them
-Contradicting himself and creating more problems in the England team
-A suspicion his only idea for improving the team is making them "work harder" which is now over doing it.
-Shields potentially undermining the culture he has made.
-Lots of gimmics in place of great coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


I don't mean the list of negatives to be longer, they are just more specific over the general good


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:56 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Jake wrote:
Question;

After Eddie's time in charge, Lancaster or Jones?

I defended Stuart many times on this forum and I have to say, his coaching of the forwards is sorely missed. He got many things wrong, but in time, I reckon he might return as England's forward coach.


Jones, so far, but the jury will be out until the RWC. But while I've always been every critical of Lancaster, I have always maintained it was lack of experience of top level head coaching was his downfall and he had potential. He needed to run a top club first before the England job.

Lancaster's pluses

-Good record
-Good and consistent forward performances mostly
-Brought in numerous talented players mostly with success
-The year before the RWC he dropped Farrell and looked like he was really building a quality exciting team
-Team was consistently motivated

Lancaster minuses

-Dependence on forwards to win every game, never really got the backline going as a quality unit.
-This dependence is why he couldn't win the 6 Nations, the forwards would be gased out for a game
-This also led to England not really consistently being reliable to put points on the board outside of the boot.
-Poor RWC preparation,. He got it all wrong.
-Failed to manage his coaches and failed to be in charge of them
-Failed to create a style of play.
-Burgess being brought in undermined his whole culture thing about earning spots.
-That Wales game in 2013
-That Wales game in 2015
-Ruining the fitness with a bad fitness plan not right for Rugby in 2015
-Lots of gimmics instead of greta coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


Jones pluses

-2 6 Nations including a slam
-Equalled the all time record
-Gave England confidence
-Strong record against the Southern Hemisphere nations
-Clearly has (or had) a direction in mind for England

Jones negatives:

-To conservative
-A suspicion his methods are out of date
-No attack coach
-A suspicion he isn't particularly good at identifying the best players
-Not giving talented young players a chance, even when those players appear to be the solution to his problems.
-Hasn't really been successful in integrating
-Been behind the game in identifying his own teams flaws and dealing with them
-Contradicting himself and creating more problems in the England team
-A suspicion his only idea for improving the team is making them "work harder" which is now over doing it.
-Shields potentially undermining the culture he has made.
-Lots of gimmics in place of great coaching?
-Played Robshaw at 7


I don't mean the list of negatives to be longer, they are just more specific over the general good


Very decent summary.

FWIW, I believe Lanny would thrive back in a pure coaching role. Rob Andrew's comments about him doing too much managing of peripheral stuff is accurate.

I also believe Lanny's ethics are missed a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:24 am 
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I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:54 am 
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Jake wrote:
I also believe Lanny's ethics are missed a bit.

Ethics? Are you not confusing that for his culture bollocks?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:55 am 
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Plastic Sarrie wrote:
I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.

And yet Billy feels loved and understood in a way he wasn't under Lancaster. Sounds to me like prize Maro had a fall from grace after phoning in a few performances.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:03 am 
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Gospel wrote:
Jake wrote:
I also believe Lanny's ethics are missed a bit.

Ethics? Are you not confusing that for his culture bollocks?


I always felt Lancaster over did that aspect, but I do believe a team identity is essential for sporting success. This is something coaches have stated in as a mark of success in every team sport.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:10 am 
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Gospel wrote:
Plastic Sarrie wrote:
I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.

And yet Billy feels loved and understood in a way he wasn't under Lancaster. Sounds to me like prize Maro had a fall from grace after phoning in a few performances.


Maybe. But also there is this, Itoje was also exhausted from the Lions tour and wasn't rested. Look at what wonders that did for Ireland. Instead of his coach understanding there is so much a human can take without the need for a recharge, Jones instead has a go at him.

The mark of a good coach is someone who is sympathetic to players individual needs and treats each player individually to their needs. Some players need a tough approach, if the time is reasonable and justified, some players need some TLC. Eddie Jones job is to get the best out of the players, not vent at them just because it feels good for him to do so after a loss. A good coach needs to make these man management judgements by knowing their players. That's how you get the best out of them.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:23 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Plastic Sarrie wrote:
I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.

And yet Billy feels loved and understood in a way he wasn't under Lancaster. Sounds to me like prize Maro had a fall from grace after phoning in a few performances.


Maybe. But also there is this, Itoje was also exhausted from the Lions tour and wasn't rested. Look at what wonders that did for Ireland. Instead of his coach understanding there is so much a human can take without the need for a recharge, Jones instead has a go at him.

The mark of a good coach is someone who is sympathetic to players individual needs and treats each player individually to their needs. Some players need a tough approach, if the time is reasonable and justified, some players need some TLC. Eddie Jones job is to get the best out of the players, not vent at them just because it feels good for him to do so after a loss. A good coach needs to make these man management judgements by knowing their players. That's how you get the best out of them.


Eddie wasn't the one who threw Maro straight back into the premiership after the lions tour, whilst his fellow lion Daly was still putting his feet up.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:24 am 
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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Plastic Sarrie wrote:
I think it was telling that Itoje made a comment after the Sarries - Quins game about liking being back in an environment where he felt loved (or words to that effect) Sort of tells a story in itself about how Jones manages the England squad.

And yet Billy feels loved and understood in a way he wasn't under Lancaster. Sounds to me like prize Maro had a fall from grace after phoning in a few performances.


Maybe. But also there is this, Itoje was also exhausted from the Lions tour and wasn't rested. Look at what wonders that did for Ireland. Instead of his coach understanding there is so much a human can take without the need for a recharge, Jones instead has a go at him.

The mark of a good coach is someone who is sympathetic to players individual needs and treats each player individually to their needs. Some players need a tough approach, if the time is reasonable and justified, some players need some TLC. Eddie Jones job is to get the best out of the players, not vent at them just because it feels good for him to do so after a loss. A good coach needs to make these man management judgements by knowing their players. That's how you get the best out of them.


Eddie wasn't the one who threw Maro straight back into the premiership after the lions tour, whilst his fellow lion Daly was still putting his feet up.


I agree Saracens were just as guilty. The flaw in the RFU-Club relationship


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:37 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
I agree Saracens were just as guilty. The flaw in the RFU-Club relationship


I was rather pointing out that perhaps Maro's love isn't that well placed :D.

Anyway, Wasps announce 5 signings from the championship, pretty happy with them, plenty of potential.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:55 am 
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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
I agree Saracens were just as guilty. The flaw in the RFU-Club relationship


I was rather pointing out that perhaps Maro's love isn't that well placed :D.

Anyway, Wasps announce 5 signings from the championship, pretty happy with them, plenty of potential.


I sure his comments are more about his treatment from coaches, not his playing time.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Billy Searle from Bristol to Wasps. I wonder if that means Cipriani is going the other way


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:24 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Itoje was also exhausted from the Lions tour and wasn't rested.

Didn't Itoje actually make fun of the fatigue argument himself? I'd wager it's been his new found celebrity status that has taken the edge off his performances. He's achieved a hell of a lot in the last couple of seasons.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
I agree Saracens were just as guilty. The flaw in the RFU-Club relationship


I was rather pointing out that perhaps Maro's love isn't that well placed :D.

Anyway, Wasps announce 5 signings from the championship, pretty happy with them, plenty of potential.

Raggs what's the talk at Wasps regarding Cips transfer? From the chatter from various players it seems that he was reluctant to leave - so was it the money or just Dai wanting to go in a different direction?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
U20s squad announced later. Smith dropping down to that do we think or having a break? Are we still likely to see the likes of Loader and Lawrence who are in the senior training squad next week?


Lawrence & Loader are playing. Smith is not.

Also not named for the South Africa game

Marcus Street (Started 2017 Semi final)
Dino Lamb-Cona (Started 2017 World Cup Final)
Ben Curry (Pulled out last year for the Seniors)
Sam Moore (Apparently could've won a cap for Wales in the autumn)
Will Butler (Started 2017 World Cup Final)
Gabriel Ibitoye (Started 2017 World Cup Final, nominated for junior player of the year)
Ali Crossdale (At 2017 JWC, injured after first match)

Does anyone know why these are not involved?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Itoje was also exhausted from the Lions tour and wasn't rested.

Didn't Itoje actually make fun of the fatigue argument himself? I'd wager it's been his new found celebrity status that has taken the edge off his performances. He's achieved a hell of a lot in the last couple of seasons.


Long term fatigue won't be like being tired all the time, what it will be is simply doing the same things at a slower less responsive rate then when rested and thus the poorer performances.


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