Planet Rugby Forum

eldanielfire wrote:

TedIV wrote:

englishchief wrote:Ford is the one that holds Farrell's hand, not the other way around.

When has Farrell run a backline in attack well? His tenure under Lancaster meant the forwards grinded out wins for his kicking game. He lacks ability to break the line, deceive the defences or open up defences with great flat passing into a gap on a regular basis. He's also a liability in defence.

Regardless of how many matches and trophies he wins I suspect you will never rate him. The criticism of Farrell is as weird as the affection for duds like Brown in this place.

eldanielfire wrote:

TedIV wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

TedIV wrote:

englishchief wrote:Ford is the one that holds Farrell's hand, not the other way around.

Laugh if you want, but englishchief is correct.

When Ford plays without Farrell, we’ve always looked good (certainly better in attack). When Farrell plays at 10, we don’t. Simple as.

Farrell has to play out of position to accommodate Ford.

Ford is not a bad test player but he is not in Farrell's class.

Farrell is a substandard test 10 and a limited 12. FFS he offers nothing except having less creative skills then the 10's he's played with.

By all means reveal your ignorance - I refer you to my earlier reply.

TedIV wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

TedIV wrote:

englishchief wrote:Ford is the one that holds Farrell's hand, not the other way around.

When has Farrell run a backline in attack well? His tenure under Lancaster meant the forwards grinded out wins for his kicking game. He lacks ability to break the line, deceive the defences or open up defences with great flat passing into a gap on a regular basis. He's also a liability in defence.

Regardless of how many matches and trophies he wins I suspect you will never rate him. The criticism of Farrell is as weird as the affection for duds like Brown in this place.

What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

eldanielfire wrote: What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

Farrell is one of the few test beasts that England has. In fact I can't think of another one at the moment.

TedIV wrote:

eldanielfire wrote: What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

Farrell is one of the few test beasts that England has. In fact I can't think of another one at the moment.

Billy V says hello.

TedIV wrote:

eldanielfire wrote: What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

Farrell is one of the few test beasts that England has. In fact I can't think of another one at the moment.

Farrell is a crap 10. Had his chance in the 6 Nations and was shown up as useless again. Had his chance in the Lions and was promptly replaced.

Wendigo7 wrote:

TedIV wrote:

eldanielfire wrote: What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

Farrell is one of the few test beasts that England has. In fact I can't think of another one at the moment.

Billy V says hello.

Yes, I thought of him of course but he's missed a lot of matches and he hasn't got that many caps yet. Farrell is over 50 caps already.

TedIV wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:

TedIV wrote:

eldanielfire wrote: What trophies has Farrell won at 10 for England? ZERO!

Test rugby and club rugby are different beasts. Andy Goode was a fudge brilliant club player, test quality he was average at best. Once again I highlight Farrell's clear lack of test skills and abilities and there is no answer. He struggles to pass left to right, he lacks pace, he can't open up defences. Try rates go up when Ford is at 10.

Farrell is one of the few test beasts that England has. In fact I can't think of another one at the moment.

Billy V says hello.

Yes, I thought of him of course but he's missed a lot of matches and he hasn't got that many caps yet. Farrell is over 50 caps already.

38 caps... I'll take the point on injuries though.

eldanielfire wrote:
Farrell is a crap 10. Had his chance in the 6 Nations and was shown up as useless again. Had his chance in the Lions and was promptly replaced.

You're an idiot.

Hello Toga

Farrell is a good 10 (took him a while to get there), and an average international 12. If he brings the newly acquired running game into the internationals, he could be a good 12 as well.

The most annoying thing about Ford is he doesn't seem to have developed that much. Farrell was very limited when he first broke onto the scene, and has constantly pushed at those limits. Ford was fantastic when he came onto the scene, but doesn't seem to have moved on much. I would have liked to have seen him at more of a Cips level by now, with no look passes meeting runners on the gainline, time and again.

I do wonder if Ford's brilliance worked against him, coaches didn't bother coaching him much because he already had so much. Whereas Farrell had clear weaknesses that have been worked on hard.

I wonder if Ford never really got his Brian Ashton like Cips had, someone who was happy to let him have his head, but clearly helped him develop his ideas. Ford has all the talent to be doing what Cips does, but isn't, and the tigers attack looks pretty stunted, despite having players like Toomua, Tuilagi and Veainu (sp?) to play with. Their dummy runners are clearly dummy runners (often ahead of the ball all the time), meaning Ford doesn't actually have any options to choose from. England suffer from a similar malaise quite often.

Raggs wrote:Farrell is a good 10 (took him a while to get there), and an average international 12. If he brings the newly acquired running game into the internationals, he could be a good 12 as well.

The most annoying thing about Ford is he doesn't seem to have developed that much. Farrell was very limited when he first broke onto the scene, and has constantly pushed at those limits. Ford was fantastic when he came onto the scene, but doesn't seem to have moved on much. I would have liked to have seen him at more of a Cips level by now, with no look passes meeting runners on the gainline, time and again.

I do wonder if Ford's brilliance worked against him, coaches didn't bother coaching him much because he already had so much. Whereas Farrell had clear weaknesses that have been worked on hard.

I wonder if Ford never really got his Brian Ashton like Cips had, someone who was happy to let him have his head, but clearly helped him develop his ideas. Ford has all the talent to be doing what Cips does, but isn't, and the tigers attack looks pretty stunted, despite having players like Toomua, Tuilagi and Veainu (sp?) to play with. Their dummy runners are clearly dummy runners (often ahead of the ball all the time), meaning Ford doesn't actually have any options to choose from. England suffer from a similar malaise quite often.

There is so much romanticised bollocks written about rugby players - past and present. Rugby is a tough working environment. The so-called 'silky' players are really nothing of the sort, they are just very good players. Cipriani is a fabulous 10 and its a scandal he doesn't have 60 caps by now but he's also a tough SOB. Farrell is a fantastic player who can pass perfectly well left and right and kick off both feet as well if he needs to. He's also pretty quick. Ford too, great player and very brave. All of them are good enough to play test rugby at 10 and some at 12. The reason Farrell wins more matches than Ford and Cipriani is because he makes less mistakes. Even his 'missed' tackles are misunderstood - he throws huge energy into the contact area against massive ball carriers, even missed tackles still slow or momentarily stop opponents behind the gainline. Comments like 'he is a crap 10' are moronic. He has also always been a very good 10, it's not something that has just happened.

TedIV wrote:The reason Farrell wins more matches than Ford and Cipriani is because he makes less mistakes.

Nothing to do with the quality of the side he plays for then?

Are Toga's bannings usually due to just being extremely argumentative or some other reason?

Hoping England go well tomorrow. Will be interesting to see Trinder.

Farrells missed tackles aren’t just as the shooter in defence.

Ford would make more no look passes on the gain line, if there were runners there.

DragsterDriver wrote:Farrells missed tackles aren’t just as the shooter in defence.

Ford would make more no look passes on the gain line, if there were runners there.

That's the thing though, I believe he could probably do it, but he's clearly not demanding it in his club, and his clubs attack coach isn't capable of supplying it to him. If he's not doing it, and honing those skills, they will not improve.

Give it up Ted this place worships Ford.

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:Farrells missed tackles aren’t just as the shooter in defence.

Ford would make more no look passes on the gain line, if there were runners there.

That's the thing though, I believe he could probably do it, but he's clearly not demanding it in his club, and his clubs attack coach isn't capable of supplying it to him. If he's not doing it, and honing those skills, they will not improve.

He’s perfectly capable of putting runners through gaps, his quick brain is his biggest asset with his short passing game. If the game plan and personnel improve for England him and cips are the pair with Farrell not moving to 10 to ‘close out’ games.

TedIV wrote: There is so much romanticised bollocks written about rugby players - past and present. Rugby is a tough working environment. The so-called 'silky' players are really nothing of the sort, they are just very good players. Cipriani is a fabulous 10 and its a scandal he doesn't have 60 caps by now but he's also a tough SOB. Farrell is a fantastic player who can pass perfectly well left and right and kick off both feet as well if he needs to. He's also pretty quick. Ford too, great player and very brave. All of them are good enough to play test rugby at 10 and some at 12. The reason Farrell wins more matches than Ford and Cipriani is because he makes less mistakes. Even his 'missed' tackles are misunderstood - he throws huge energy into the contact area against massive ball carriers, even missed tackles still slow or momentarily stop opponents behind the gainline. Comments like 'he is a crap 10' are moronic. He has also always been a very good 10, it's not something that has just happened.

he was very limited when he first started for england - it was an enormous step down in attack from flood.

pandion wrote:Give it up Ted this place worships Ford.

We want his babies.

The Farrell Narrative will continue till his next great performance at which point he will be the GOAT again for 5 minutes. Remember how central he was to the Lions.

I'm tired of having this same discussion when he hast played an international for a couple of months.

Farrell's an adequate 10 for Sarries but notice that most of his play making today came 5 yards behind the gainline

His real value is as a tactician, defender and goal kicker

I don’t think anybody is saying he’s a poor player- it’s just that outside of set play he’s not as good as ford, certainly not as comfortable. Is he valuable as a 12 reading play worhout the initial pressure? Quite possibly.

DragsterDriver wrote:Farrells missed tackles aren’t just as the shooter in defence.

Ford would make more no look passes on the gain line, if there were runners there.

Imagine if ford had an accurate 9 and an intuitive 12, and England don't insist on a forward touching the ball every other pass.

In fairness, Farrell has played 10 with Barritt outside him for most of his career, that would kill anyone's interest in flair.

Gospel wrote:

TedIV wrote:The reason Farrell wins more matches than Ford and Cipriani is because he makes less mistakes.

Nothing to do with the quality of the side he plays for then?

Why do you think Saracens employ Farrell? You think Mark McCall thinks he can pick an average 10 who can't pass or create chances and is also slow because the rest of the team are good enough to carry him (bar the hideously hopeless fullback he also picks of course)?

englishchief wrote:Are Toga's bannings usually due to just being extremely argumentative or some other reason?

Hoping England go well tomorrow. Will be interesting to see Trinder.

It's considered a banning offence to say Mike Brown is shite.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at some of Jones's comments here...

‘We’ve got 22 players unavailable, so that is half of the top 45 players in England unavailable,’ said Jones.

‘So, I have brought new players in, and it is how those 22 players who are unavailable come back. These new guys have got an opportunity.

‘We’ve probably got 70 per cent of the squad in place for the World Cup — we know who our best players are. We probably know who our best team are — but outside that top 23 there are opportunities for players to put up their hand.’

Jones has also selected Wasps centre Elliot Daly at full-back — shifting Mike Brown to the wing. It in an overdue move from the selection team, with Jones admitting Daly’s best position could be in the No 15 jersey.

‘I think he has 18 months to settle into a position,’ said Jones. ‘We feel like 15 could be his position.

‘He is seriously quick and has a good sense for the game. He is one of those naturally talented sports people.

‘He could join the England cricket side tomorrow and he would take the new ball, score a few runs.’

Jones has been in charge of England for 28 test matches and he's only just realised Daly is likely a much better fullback than Mike Brown? This is real insight - the bloke's a genius.

openclashXX wrote:Farrell's an adequate 10 for Sarries but notice that most of his play making today came 5 yards behind the gainline

His real value is as a tactician, defender and goal kicker

he plays deep by design, the pod system that sarries use needs the 10 to play deep to allow the wrap around to work.

If he played flat he would be in contact rather than making the extra man when the ball is popped back.

He can and does play flat when the game is loose. As shown by the first try in the semi

Daly’s best position is outside centre, then wing. What more does Woodward have to do ? This would have been an ideal opportunity.

TokenSarriesFan wrote:

openclashXX wrote:Farrell's an adequate 10 for Sarries but notice that most of his play making today came 5 yards behind the gainline

His real value is as a tactician, defender and goal kicker

he plays deep by design, the pod system that sarries use needs the 10 to play deep to allow the wrap around to work.

If he played flat he would be in contact rather than making the extra man when the ball is popped back.

He can and does play flat when the game is loose. As shown by the first try in the semi

"when the game is loose" = when the gaps between defenders are 50 feet wide

Ford practically lives on the gainline, Farrell occasionally holidays there when the conditions suit him

TopNacker wrote:Daly’s best position is outside centre, then wing. What more does Woodward have to do ? This would have been an ideal opportunity.

It would be. But I think Jones still wants Watson at full back, even though wing is his best Test position.

I reckon Jones still harbours faint hope that Mallinder will make it as a test fullback.

Oxbow wrote:I reckon Jones still harbours faint hope that Mallinder will make it as a test fullback.

Jim or Harry? I’d say the former is a better bet tbh

Toga, if you're watching Ford at the moment, you'd see why he's a much better player than Farrell

I still feel Daly has all the tools of a top 15.

Pace, boot- tackle, great brain.

DragsterDriver wrote:I still feel Daly has all the tools of a top 15.

Pace, boot- tackle, great brain.

I agree but he just needs to play there consistently to get the experience of the ins and outs of the position.

Brown has been great but his time has gone.

englishchief wrote:Toga, if you're watching Ford at the moment, you'd see why he's a much better player than Farrell

Don't feed him he's never changed his mind on anything, ever, despite always being wrong.

englishchief wrote:Toga, if you're watching Ford at the moment, you'd see why he's a much better player than Farrell

Ford is a great flyhalf and is the type of player ideal for a BaaBaas match. In the real rugby yesterday, Farrell is the ideal 10.

The Man Without Fear wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:I still feel Daly has all the tools of a top 15.

Pace, boot- tackle, great brain.

I agree but he just needs to play there consistently to get the experience of the ins and outs of the position.

Brown has been great but his time has gone.

Brown is still a good 15, playing him on the wing takes the piss- it’s on par with monye at 15 for cruelty.

Daly really should be a 15, I’d trust Watson more on the wing.