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Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:09 pm
by Dobbin
We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:18 pm
by Madness
Dobbin wrote:We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?
1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson
Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:19 pm
by Wendigo7
BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.
Really unimpressed with him atm.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:20 pm
by Gospel
TranceNRG wrote:I thought Brad Shields was playing lock?
No he was selected on the blindside ahead of Robshaw.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:21 pm
by MrDominator
Wendigo7 wrote:BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.
Really unimpressed with him atm.
My worry about Itoje is that he's just not enough of a physical specimen. He looks underpowered out there at times.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:23 pm
by Wendigo7
MrDominator wrote:Wendigo7 wrote:BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.
Really unimpressed with him atm.
My worry about Itoje is that he's just not enough of a physical specimen. He looks underpowered out there at times.
You could say that about a lot of the pack.
We look so small at times all over.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:24 pm
by Oxbow
Gospel wrote:Oxbow wrote:Farrell really isn't a captain. Despite his limitations, it's clear what Hartley brings to the side, and there doesn't seem to be any obvious candidates to take his place, which is a worry.
I don't think Farrell's captaincy is an issue. As for other candidates Launch captains Wasps and is arguably our most consistent forward.
He's a shouty, petulant captain who irritates referees and so can't build any kind of relationship with them. Why hasn't Eddie looked at Launch?
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:26 pm
by Oxbow
Madness wrote:Dobbin wrote:We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?
1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson
Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections
Haskell
Manu
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:28 pm
by Mick Mannock
Madness wrote:Dobbin wrote:We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?
1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson
Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections
I thought Grnge was touring. I also do not think we can consider either Underwood
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:28 pm
by Gospel
Haskell would have been a real asset for this tour given the physicality of South Africa and would have dove-tailed nicely with the stupid shit.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:36 pm
by The Man Without Fear
Genge is injured. On tour.
Farrell's lack of captaincy nous was borne out by him turning down three points which would have put us 15-10 up, away from home in a tough Test, which quickly turned the momentum, and then not looking to cut the lead to 15-20 with plenty of time left on the clock.
Both times we screwed up and just fell further into a hole of chasing the game.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:50 pm
by The Man Without Fear
Still the wrong decision both times.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:55 pm
by DragsterDriver
Joseph or Te’o would have been a big help, other than that missing players are no excuse.
Sinkler didn’t go so well today, amazingly given our depth locks have been shite.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:59 pm
by elfieldinho
It will be interesting to see if we can sustain our early efforts better away from altitude. The core weakness of this team for a year now has been being awful at the breakdown and I thought Curry and Shields looked promising. Drop Billy because he is a passenger. Hughes looks a trundler these days so I'd try Shields, Curry and Wilson. Flip the props. Brown is - whatever bored lore insists - currently our best defensive fullback. Daly might be the answer at 13. Let's see Denny on the wing. Ford has been great for the first 20 each game and then fallen off so maybe we do give Cipriani a look?
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:02 pm
by Wendigo7
I'd drop Mako, Itoje and Hughes completely. Even if just to make a point.
Bring in Hepburn, Simmonds (lightweight yes but can play 7 or
+ 1 lock. Test it out just to see how the discipline goes when they are not in the side.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:03 pm
by JM2K6
Suggesting 9 changes is crazy. You can't do that and expect any level of cohesion in attack or defence.
Very few starting players impressed. Cips should be given the chance to shine. Start the sub front row. Start one of either Spencer (Youngs has had two awful matches in a row) or Solomona.
Hope Billy isn't broken.
Even that's a crazy amount of changes.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:08 pm
by matta25
Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:08 pm
by Madness
It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with that squad, whoever we pick we are going to get over powered again.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:12 pm
by JM2K6
I was willing to give Youngs a chance given his somewhat unique circumstances and his injury woes.
I honestly don't think you learn from putting a scratch team out there.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:20 pm
by JM2K6
I think we're seeing quite clearly why he was loathe to trust Jamie George, but the wider point stands at the moment.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:21 pm
by ChipSpike
I reckon Daly to 13, Brown to 15, Solomona wing. Marler in for Mako, George, (wheres Cole). Launch, Itoje. Robslow, Billy, Simmonds. Robslow capt.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:23 pm
by JM2K6
I'm too drunk to work out which one of you is Toga. Am I seeing double?
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:25 pm
by JM2K6
The Man With Fear wrote:JM2K6 wrote:I think we're seeing quite clearly why he was loathe to trust Jamie George, but the wider point stands at the moment.
Jamie Geroge is the least of England's problems, he did ok today.
The real question is why all the Saracens players, and Exeter players play so much better with far fewer errors for their clubs than they do for England. The accuracy just vanishes. That's rank bad preparation and coaching.
Disagree on George, the set piece struggles with him and we're simply not seeing any impact from him in attack or defence. He's a bit of a non entity at the moment compared to his sub cameos.
I'm not sure the Exeter guys are playing much worse, they're rarely asked to push the boat out for their clubs. Slade is playing just as inconsistently as he does for Exeter.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:32 pm
by DragsterDriver
I think Hepburn would have played the mako role adequately, George as I always suspected is an average fatbody. Think we may see Shields at 8, him and curry have been some of the few positives- I expect Eddie to be royally fûcked off with Hughes and billy just isn’t fit. Wilson to 6.
Itoje has been plain awful, I think we’re suffering from not playing physical locks and asking him to play that role is comedy.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:35 pm
by Glaston
Err why is Billy being given a pass for not being fit and Hughes isnt?
Hughes has had parts in 4 recent games since coming back from injury.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:37 pm
by DragsterDriver
Glaston wrote:Err why is Billy being given a pass for not being fit and Hughes isnt?
Hughes has had parts in 4 recent games since coming back from injury.
For me Hughes has little credit in the bank, he was a plodding stand in for an injured Vunipola. And that penalty today was a pisstake.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:42 pm
by Backwoodsman1
DragsterDriver wrote:TopNacker wrote:The aerial game is shambolic. Kicks from Ford and Young’s are rarely contestable, and when they are fannies like May and Brown rarely collect. Two very poor knock ons from Brown today and he has been moved to wing for his aerial prowess.Our kicking game therefore just hands possession away, which is why having taken the lead we rarely saw the ball again.
For the umpteenth time I shall say that Ford and Farrell doesn’t work. Ford was awful and Farrell is a mediocre gobshite who will never win over a referee. As a combination they have provided very little evidence that they can manage a game. Losowski and Daly at centre for me with Cipriani at 10 and Spencer or Robson at 9. Young’s is too slow and his passing isn’t consistently good.
The brainless Hughes and Mako should be dropped now, the former from a great height. It was a mistake to bring Billy on tour if he can’t get through 40 mins. George and Slade are ineffective. Sinckler spends the whole game trying to see himself on the big screen. The vain plum must think he’s test class. I would drop Itoje if we had taken Callum Green on tour.
1. Marler
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Launch
6. Shield
7. Curry
8. Wilson
9. Spencer
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Losowski
13. Daly
14. May (but look like you want to catch the ball)
15. Brown
Fair shout of a team- not sure about that no4?
I would argue for going with this selection. Based on the fact that the series is lost already and fielding largely the same team is unlikely to achieve even a face saving result. Therefore take the opportunity to see if there are realistic alternatives in the tour party ready to step up.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:48 pm
by JM2K6
Backwoodsman1 wrote:DragsterDriver wrote:TopNacker wrote:The aerial game is shambolic. Kicks from Ford and Young’s are rarely contestable, and when they are fannies like May and Brown rarely collect. Two very poor knock ons from Brown today and he has been moved to wing for his aerial prowess.Our kicking game therefore just hands possession away, which is why having taken the lead we rarely saw the ball again.
For the umpteenth time I shall say that Ford and Farrell doesn’t work. Ford was awful and Farrell is a mediocre gobshite who will never win over a referee. As a combination they have provided very little evidence that they can manage a game. Losowski and Daly at centre for me with Cipriani at 10 and Spencer or Robson at 9. Young’s is too slow and his passing isn’t consistently good.
The brainless Hughes and Mako should be dropped now, the former from a great height. It was a mistake to bring Billy on tour if he can’t get through 40 mins. George and Slade are ineffective. Sinckler spends the whole game trying to see himself on the big screen. The vain plum must think he’s test class. I would drop Itoje if we had taken Callum Green on tour.
1. Marler
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Launch
6. Shield
7. Curry
8. Wilson
9. Spencer
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Losowski
13. Daly
14. May (but look like you want to catch the ball)
15. Brown
Fair shout of a team- not sure about that no4?
I would argue for going with this selection. Based on the fact that the series is lost already and fielding largely the same team is unlikely to achieve even a face saving result. Therefore take the opportunity to see if there are realistic alternatives in the tour party ready to step up.
How often does this actually help? It's throwing a match in the hope that a few players might not be terrible and hoping that means they are a long term solution.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 pm
by DragsterDriver
I’d definitely drop Young’s anyway, useless cûnt.
/beer talking
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:04 pm
by Margin_Walker
Just got in from watching that. What a horror show and really not much good to pick out of there. I really am usually one for continuity, but I'd completely shake it up for the dead rubber
Marler
LCD
Williams
Itoje
Launchbury
Shields
Wilson
Billy (if remotely fit)
Youngs
Cipriani
Solomona
Farrell
Daly
May
Brown
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:05 pm
by DragsterDriver
Bin Youngs, and I’m not talking like a kiwi.
Farrell isn’t a captain, doesn’t seem to be trusting his goal kicking...and isn’t doing anywhere near enough with the ball. Good tap tackle though today.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:18 pm
by ChipSpike
I would also bin Youngs, except the alternatives are worse.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:56 pm
by The Man Without Fear
JM2K6 wrote:I'm too drunk to work out which one of you is Toga. Am I seeing double?
I'm Toga and so's my wife.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:05 pm
by DragsterDriver
ChipSpike wrote:I would also bin Youngs, except the alternatives are worse.
Bin Spincer
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:09 pm
by Petej
Jones has flogged the players at every opportunity this season. I can't remember us having so many injuries in training. The longer they spend with England the more knackered they get.
Also is genge injured? He would be better than a clearly knackered mako.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:14 pm
by nicebutdim
One thing I would like to add to the mix is that we no longer have these players in the side who were crucial for Jone's disruptive smash and grab style of rugby:
- Lawes
- Haskell
- Joseph
Lawes is a very mobile and aggressive tackling machine that could help nullify opposition packs. Without a 7 Haskell brought the key 6.5 ingredient to the back row with destructive tackling and physical carrying. And Joseph used to score tries for fun either from set moves, or more importantly poaching intercepts, and also shut down oppositions wide attacks with awesome drift defense.
Add Billy Vunipola's absence and now poor fitness and we have a team shorn of its relentless physicality and some smarts.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:22 pm
by DragsterDriver
Mako going home, Hepburn flying out.
Apparently.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:25 pm
by Wendigo7
DragsterDriver wrote:Mako going home, Hepburn flying out.
Apparently.
I'd say normally it's for a rest, but the way Eddie's been going, that might actually be a drop from the full squad if true. (nothing's off the table now)
Hepburn's a good prop, hope he does well if selected.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:14 pm
by Wendigo7
Has to be questions also about the league itself now. Not really the format, per se, but does the league produce international standard rugby players?
Sure, a case can be made for it, for the South Africans, however barring them, I'm yet to see a foreign international come to our league in their prime, improve and play for their national side. I'm looking at the top 14 and the Super 16 and thinking we can't play at that pace. We don't play anything like that, at any age group.
Not all of this is Eddie Jones and the Lions, alot of this must be laid at the clubs/league as well. Very clearly at the moment we're way off.
Re: **OFFICIAL** English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:00 am
by matta25
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers) has flown back to England today following a knee injury he picked up earlier this week.
He will continue his treatment back at his club. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) will join the squad on Sunday in Durban ahead of the third Test in Cape Town.
Mako Vunipola (Saracens) will travel back to London tomorrow for family reasons which were agreed ahead of the tour.