Planet Rugby Forum

matta25 wrote:

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Mako Vunipola (Saracens) will travel back to London tomorrow for family reasons which were agreed ahead of the tour.

Big Sunday roast with his favourite side dishes?

Am lolling as those who would pick Itoje again - he’s been shite for a few games now. I give isiekwe another chance to stink the joint out in a dead rubber, alongside Capt Launchbury (who had another good game today)
Curry and shields can stay - can we fly over Morgan for 8 slot ?

Wendigo7 wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:Mako going home, Hepburn flying out.

Apparently.

I'd say normally it's for a rest, but the way Eddie's been going, that might actually be a drop from the full squad if true. (nothing's off the table now)

Hepburn's a good prop, hope he does well if selected.

Evidently, Mako going home, was agreed prior to the tour - for 'personal reasons'.

Those wanting to drop Hughes, Itoje and Mako for idiotic penalties, whilst I agree, why aren't we dropping Farrell for the same? Just because the ref wasn't sure what happened and shouted "Play on" doesn't mean that Farrell shouldn't have recognised he was offside from the last 2 fecking rucks, and can't just pick up the ball!!!

Thought Hughes was going well until that retarded play, so mindless. What on earth was going through his head???

I'll do ruck marks at some point.

Time to take a stand against stupidity and poor conditioning I think. We haven't the personnel here for full re-invention and some of this is undoubtedly conditioning and tiredness. Itoje for instance hasn't magically transformed from a star of the Lions tour to being a shitty player. We sent our 6 Nations winners to the Lions, they didn't get rested in the AP and then Eddie flogged them. It is unsurprising that they are struggling. The next twist was then to refuse to acclimate to altitude...I'd love to be able to plug in Lawes and think it might be time to accept that we need more power throughout the side, but that's just not available to us right now. If you're not fit, then you're not playing, which means Billy cameos for 25 minutes and Wilson starts. Hughes isn't fit either, but this is only the second best reason to drop him.

Sooner or later, we will have to stop picking players who are consistently making stupid decisions. Ideally Itoje would be one of them as perhaps the second worst offender after Mako, but because of the strange lock selection for the tour, we can't do that. Mako has gone and Itoje can't, so Hughes has to carry the can on that front. If we're addressing stupidity though, it has to be about more than the concession of penalties. England are going to have to try to make a 9 if they can't find one that's ready because the only times Ben Youngs isn't the worst decision maker on the field are when Danny Care is playing.

I like Ford and thought he was good last week, but we are seeing a player in a trough as regards decision making. His timing is still sweet and his passing superb, so he looks great when we get good ball and the backline is set, but he just isn't making good choices outside of optimum situations. All 10s look bad behind a struggling pack of course, but first half that really wasn't the issue. We were generating good ball, having defended well for the most part and Ford kept robotically kicking it away. I think it's definitely worth looking at Cipriani as Ford's run game has vanished and we desperately need that our lack of punch at 12 and 13.

I liked the idea of Daly at 15, but I think we're seeing again why people keep picking Brown. In a team filled with poor decision makers and poor tacklers, there is every case for a fullback who is angry in a good way, hard as nails, good on the floor and solid at the back, even if he is undoubtedly stodgy in attack. I don't know if anyone can play brilliantly outside Farrell and Ford as the absence of any running threat from 10 and 12 neuters the 13 so this isn't very fair to Slade, but Cips, Farrell and Daly might work.

If the point of this tour was to learn - and I think it has been as why else would you go super-high tempo for the first 20 at altitude?- then I think it has been relatively successful so far. Robshaw out and Shields in. Curry in. Brown still needed at 15 until the World Cup. Ford and Farrell not a combo to beat the best, (long-term I'd look to Ford and a different 12 personally, but we're clearly in Farrell territory until we get a new coach), Youngs no better than Care. Johnny May fantastic, Daly a must play, but not at 15.

There's the spine of a good team here if we are going to see the backrow made competitive. We're not seeing it right now because of fitness, altitude and stupidity - and the relationship between those three things needs to be remembered. I wouldn't ignore the first twenty in these two games as we have looked very good there. A fresh England team with better decision making can still be dangerous next year, so no bad thing that we're struggling now.

What did Brown and Marler do ?
BBC report that they had a bust up with fans post game.

Madness wrote:It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with that squad, whoever we pick we are going to get over powered again.

This is it. We need at least one big fast ball carrier in the centres and the same in the loose forwards. That has been a problem with England for years. Although I do feel England are in a better place now than we were at any stage in that winning streak we were on.

Raggs wrote:Those wanting to drop Hughes, Itoje and Mako for idiotic penalties, whilst I agree, why aren't we dropping Farrell for the same? Just because the ref wasn't sure what happened and shouted "Play on" doesn't mean that Farrell shouldn't have recognised he was offside from the last 2 fecking rucks, and can't just pick up the ball!!!

Thought Hughes was going well until that retarded play, so mindless. What on earth was going through his head???

I'll do ruck marks at some point.

Fine. I'm still not sure if Farrell was offside at that point, surely a fumble in play means you can't be offside/the offside line isn't set, but that might be me misinterpreting.

That Hughes thing was incredible. We were unlucky with Mosterts fine intervention to stop a try shortly afterwards, but Hughes killing the momentum like that and Mako doing what he did was beyond stupid, it was obscene.

I saw elsewhere someone commented that it's the Saracens players not used to getting their own way and getting frustrated. That actually might be right, seriously. However, if that is it, drop the f**king lot of them. You can't do that at international and expect to get away with it. Mako has been a serial offender of penalties since Lancaster? DROP HIM.

It might mean a slight drop off in standard but if we're looking at options, Hepburn isn't the worst and did well in SA last time in the B's against what is now quite a few of the same Saffa side. We bemoan the penalties, well these were happening in Lancaster's era too. It's not all the coach, some of those is serial offenders doing it again, and again, and again. You let them off because they are the best players, sure, but after a while you can't do that. He's got to go, even if just to see how we are without him and the stupidity. Cole's not there and sadly Sinckler's just in poor form, however stupid breakdown penalties from an England "3" isn't occurring, so that's some improvement. But serial offenders need to be dealt with now.

Ye have the players ,the problem England have is Eddie Jones ,Farrell isnt a captain ,poor decision making cost your team yesterday

DragsterDriver wrote:Mako going home, Hepburn flying out.

Apparently.

Mako prearranged family thing (!), Genge also coming home. So Marler to start and Hepburn to bench

Raggs wrote:Those wanting to drop Hughes, Itoje and Mako for idiotic penalties, whilst I agree, why aren't we dropping Farrell for the same? Just because the ref wasn't sure what happened and shouted "Play on" doesn't mean that Farrell shouldn't have recognised he was offside from the last 2 fecking rucks, and can't just pick up the ball!!!

Thought Hughes was going well until that retarded play, so mindless. What on earth was going through his head???

I'll do ruck marks at some point.

I still remember Hughes against Exeter in the premiership final. Add to that his numerous sill transgressions for England and I am losing patience

Wendigo7 wrote:

Raggs wrote:Those wanting to drop Hughes, Itoje and Mako for idiotic penalties, whilst I agree, why aren't we dropping Farrell for the same? Just because the ref wasn't sure what happened and shouted "Play on" doesn't mean that Farrell shouldn't have recognised he was offside from the last 2 fecking rucks, and can't just pick up the ball!!!

Thought Hughes was going well until that retarded play, so mindless. What on earth was going through his head???

I'll do ruck marks at some point.

Fine. I'm still not sure if Farrell was offside at that point, surely a fumble in play means you can't be offside/the offside line isn't set, but that might be me misinterpreting.

Farrell was never onside

Petej wrote:Jones has flogged the players at every opportunity this season. I can't remember us having so many injuries in training. The longer they spend with England the more knackered they get.

Also is genge injured? He would be better than a clearly knackered mako.

It has virtually always been like this on a summer tour in terms of fatigue and injuries. England would usually fly south for a hiding with a 2nd/3rd XV.

Madness wrote:It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with that squad, whoever we pick we are going to get over powered again.

True, but they can still be more clinical in the backs. SA really struggle in defence when England go wide. It finished 2 tries each yesterday, and 5 tries each the week before and I think England can score more tbh, wasted some good field position yesterday. I'd like to see Cipriani start at flyhalf.

Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1

Petros wrote:Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1

That Slade stat is absurd. He should be dropped for that alone.

If we call on Robshaw to get dropped for his shit show, Slade must go the same way.

Wendigo7 wrote:

Petros wrote:Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1

That Slade stat is absurd. He should be dropped for that alone.

If we call on Robshaw to get dropped for his shit show, Slade must go the same way.

Cipriani-Farrell-Daly?

Petros wrote:Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1

I like Slade but he doesn't have that mongrel you need to have in his possition if you are his size.

Back row is getting there, centres next. Faz isn’t up to it.


Wonder what odds on shields being captain by the rwc,?

The breakdown wasn't even that bad yesterday. It is just pure idiocy that costs England. When they got in SA's 22 and got the ball through hands in the backs, looked very dangerous.

Anonymous. wrote:

Petros wrote:Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1

I like Slade but he doesn't have that mongrel you need to have in his possition if you are his size.

Slightly unfair stat, a couple of those were kick chases where he got stepped but did enough to make sure the next guy there made the tackle. He was poor though.

englishchief wrote:The breakdown wasn't even that bad yesterday. It is just pure idiocy that costs England. When they got in SA's 22 and got the ball through hands in the backs, looked very dangerous.

That and an inability to catch the flipping ball, I can't remember us dropping so many.

On a positive note, how good has Johnny May been!

Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.

Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

englishchief wrote:Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.

Spotting that throwing a wild blind offload, during a very messy phase of play (therefore players of both sides all over the place), is a risky play, is not insightful.

DragsterDriver wrote:

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.

Raggs wrote:

englishchief wrote:Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.

Spotting that throwing a wild blind offload, during a very messy phase of play (therefore players of both sides all over the place), is a risky play, is not insightful.

I meant that he made clear the domino effect of this single mistake

Young’s plays nearly as well as he interviews.

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.

Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.

DragsterDriver wrote:

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.

Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.

The lack of a physical presence in midfield in killing us, we just give up the gainline far too easily. Without Teo or Tuilagi (if he ever comes back) we just don't have anyone. Farrell getting a bit stroppy just isn't cutting it. We'd be better off with Barrit there at the moment!

DragsterDriver wrote:

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.

Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.

It was decent, but it wasn't smart, and that's annoying from the captain.

The Man Without Fear wrote:Genge is injured. On tour.

Farrell's lack of captaincy nous was borne out by him turning down three points which would have put us 15-10 up, away from home in a tough Test, which quickly turned the momentum, and then not looking to cut the lead to 15-20 with plenty of time left on the clock.

Both times we screwed up and just fell further into a hole of chasing the game.

You'd have thought he of all people might have learnt from 2015!

DragsterDriver wrote:

Raggs wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Tez wrote:Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.

Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.

If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.

Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.

Every time we've started T'eo he looks a long way off being international class, though.

Very harsh on Faz and Robshaw to lump them in with a guy like Youngs who's been bad since the previous season. If you're expecting them to be gone forever, well, Robshaw may not make it back if Shields improves, but there's almost no chance Farrell would be dropped for long (if he gets dropped at all).

Cips looked bloody good when he came on, which is nice. Slade is exactly as I said last week - soft and a total luxury of a player - but we have other options at 13.

matta25 wrote:Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.

Mako was imperious in the ap final.

RodneyRegis wrote:

matta25 wrote:Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.

Mako was imperious in the ap final.

He was, but he's played a stupid amount of rugby and a tour to SA (with 2 matches at altitude) was the last thing he needed.

In the school of knee jerk picking a backline of players we could have, many who seem better purely for not being involved recently then lets go for this backline next season

Robson
Cips
Daley
Manu
JJ
Wade
Watson

Now that's a good set of backs......providing we get front foot ball, no one needs to defend too much, no one gets too many high balls on the back 3 etc etc

Wendigo7 wrote:Has to be questions also about the league itself now. Not really the format, per se, but does the league produce international standard rugby players?

Sure, a case can be made for it, for the South Africans, however barring them, I'm yet to see a foreign international come to our league in their prime, improve and play for their national side. I'm looking at the top 14 and the Super 16 and thinking we can't play at that pace. We don't play anything like that, at any age group.

Not all of this is Eddie Jones and the Lions, alot of this must be laid at the clubs/league as well. Very clearly at the moment we're way off.

Is this a parody post?

RodneyRegis wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:Has to be questions also about the league itself now. Not really the format, per se, but does the league produce international standard rugby players?

Sure, a case can be made for it, for the South Africans, however barring them, I'm yet to see a foreign international come to our league in their prime, improve and play for their national side. I'm looking at the top 14 and the Super 16 and thinking we can't play at that pace. We don't play anything like that, at any age group.

Not all of this is Eddie Jones and the Lions, alot of this must be laid at the clubs/league as well. Very clearly at the moment we're way off.

Is this a parody post?

It's Wendigo. If he can't overreach in comical style, he won't post.