Planet Rugby Forum

Billy-ball is the only way we can play right now because it's the only style that suits our small and lightweight backline

to move away from Billy-ball would really require fundamentally transforming how the whole XV is set up - we would need some more size in the centres and on the wings

openclashXX wrote:Billy-ball is the only way we can play right now because it's the only style that suits our small and lightweight backline

to move away from Billy-ball would really require fundamentally transforming how the whole XV is set up - we would need some more size in the centres and on the wings

It’s the only way to go I think unfortunately.

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:How is Ben Morgan doing? He beats people by footwork not force, I always rated him before he broke his leg. Looking at stats though it seems he's pretty high up in the AP. Is he not the right sort or something?

Not first choice at glaws, not fit enough for international rugby.

He's first choice when fit. Struggled a bit this year with a calf injury so he's been in and out a bit. His stats have been very good though and he's a damn sight fitter than Vunipola or Hughes. He's never really had a look in under Eddie, partially through injury but I also think he just doesn't rate him.

pandion wrote:I wonder if Saracens tied McCall and his team up at the end of the season knowing Eddie's shitting the bed?

You think there wouldn't be an international get-out clause?

On selection, surprised there hasn't been more clamour for Cipriani at 10. Given England are essentially beaten up front, he is the kind of risk-taking flyhalf needed who can create something from nothing.

Rugby2023 wrote:

pandion wrote:I wonder if Saracens tied McCall and his team up at the end of the season knowing Eddie's shitting the bed?

You think there wouldn't be an international get-out clause?

On selection, surprised there hasn't been more clamour for Cipriani at 10. Given England are essentially beaten up front, he is the kind of risk-taking flyhalf needed who can create something from nothing.

Well yeah cips deserves a chance, but most cool heads realise ford is hampered by a beaten pack, Young’s delivery and no carrier in the centre.

I still think a fit and in form JJ makes a huge difference to the team.

Jake wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:Shields, Curry, Wilson? Who carries?

Shields. He does loads of it.

It's just he does it a lot quicker than you're used to as an England fan so it's easy to miss......

I've only watched him about 30 times...

He's not much of a heavy carrier. Give him a bit of space and he'll do well, but then Simmonds would do better.

Shields is a very worthy player but that back row would struggle for impact.

The Man Without Fear wrote:I still think a fit and in form JJ makes a huge difference to the team.

Defensively definitely but he's not been the same player in attack for a year or more. If we're going to persist with Ford/Farrell then it really needs a ball carrier outside them.

JM2K6 wrote:

Jake wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:Shields, Curry, Wilson? Who carries?

Shields. He does loads of it.

It's just he does it a lot quicker than you're used to as an England fan so it's easy to miss......

I've only watched him about 30 times...

He's not much of a heavy carrier. Give him a bit of space and he'll do well, but then Simmonds would do better.

Shields is a very worthy player but that back row would struggle for impact.

Not for this tour obviously but swap Wilson for Ewers and I could see it working.

forrester wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:I still think a fit and in form JJ makes a huge difference to the team.

Defensively definitely but he's not been the same player in attack for a year or more. If we're going to persist with Ford/Farrell then it really needs a ball carrier outside them.

Right now I would settle for some definite defence at 13.

Edit: And he couldn't have much less attacking impact than Slade's managed in two Tests.

If Robshaw is too slow then Ewers has no chance. Moot point, though, as Ewers is in the Jack Clifford bracket of porcelain.

The Man Without Fear wrote:I still think a fit and in form JJ makes a huge difference to the team.

He has been making a huge difference to England for 3 years. He has scored 17 tries and marshaled our drift defense beautifully. A huge step up from Slade at OC.

Raggs wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:I know everyone roots for the young lads, but I don't think Curry has been anything more than adequate and has struggled to impose himself (not alone there). May make a decent test 7, but he's not there yet.

I'd argue slightly better than adequate, which is enough to keep trying him and very impressive for his age. Would have loved to have seen Willis.

Yep. Agreed on both points. I think you coukd make a case for Curry having been our best back rower across the two tests. That’s as much down to lack of impact from he other players used, but he still deserves credit.

I would have loved to have seen Willis though. I think the nature of the game would have suited him well. I really hope he can recover without too much of an impact from his injury.

Yeah, was a real shame about Willis; looks to have that extra bit of physicality on the Currys and therefore brings a bit more balance/ballast to the backrow, reckon he’d have made an impact on this series.

Think this series has reinforced that if we’re going to play Robshaw and Billy, we need a destructive, momentum-killing, tackler at 7.

Nieghorn wrote:Interesting from Charlie Morgan on Twitter. U20s who've been capped at senior level:




... for comparison, Baby Blacks who've made the step up (only Anscombe gets a mention; not sure how many others represented other countries ... Brad Shields, I think, was in that stellar 2011 side).

England have a fair few issues. I don't think the U20' are simply nto good enough. I think the majority of them aren't being integrated slowly like baby Blacks get. Look at Beauden Barrett, a shit ton of caps but only took over from Carter two years ago as 1st choice. It was the same in the early 2000's when Carter and McCaw suddenly looked like GOAT players it was a long time coming of integration into the All Blacks and feeling at home.

Eddie Jones meanwhile has integrated almost nobody. He makes big squad calls, but not team calls. I blame this on the fact he was clear that his goal was just the 2019 RWC. Screw the future after that he doesn't care. He is the ultimate short termer. And as I pointed out had little success in tier 1 or at a top club for 10 years when he took the job.

Heyes another to watch from U20s

JM2K6 wrote:If Robshaw is too slow then Ewers has no chance. Moot point, though, as Ewers is in the Jack Clifford bracket of porcelain.

Not really, a couple of recent injuries, one bad one from England training, but otherwise not particularly injury prone

Gospel wrote:

elfieldinho wrote:The injury to Billy is a blessing in the short term as he is woefully ineffective right now. I think we give up too much in breakdown work by playing him anyway. I'd rather accept that the centres need to present a running threat and stop trying to make up for them with a lump at 8. I know comparing other teams to NZ is redundant, but I can't imagine them picking a Billy and trying to play an all-court game. I'd take more speed in the defensive line and more impact at the breakdown. Personally I'd be excited by Shields, Curry and Wilson as I think other than the eternal 9 problem we could be fine everywhere else when fresh and healthy so if this tour suggested a way forward at 6,7 and 8 I'd be delighted.

We're losing a fair bit with Curry because he's still only a teenager playing against one of the most physical packs in world rugby - but I hope we do keep playing him regardless because he has the potential to be very good indeed.

Agreed.

Crikey just read the telegraph, the fella doing the player ratings is a comedian.

DragsterDriver wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:Shields, Curry, Wilson? Who carries?

Shields. I’d rather him at 8 than Hughes.

I thought Shields failed to impose himself physically in the weekend. He looks like he has a way to go to establish himself as a test player.

Nieghorn wrote:Interesting from Charlie Morgan on Twitter. U20s who've been capped at senior level:




... for comparison, Baby Blacks who've made the step up (only Anscombe gets a mention; not sure how many others represented other countries ... Brad Shields, I think, was in that stellar 2011 side).

Sometimes the Baby Blacks are more likely to subsequently represent another nation, like this contingent;

2008:

- Rodney Ah You (Ireland)
- Paea Fa’anunu (Tonga)
- Grayson Hart (Scotland)
- Sean Maitland (Scotland)
- Nasi Manu (Tonga)
- Nick McLennan (Scotland)
- Suliasi Taufalele (Tonga)
- Mike Harris (Australia)
- John Hardie (Scotland)
- Tevita Koloamatangi (Tonga)
- Matthew Luamanu (Samoa)
- Ryan Crotty
- Matt Todd
- Sam Whitelock
- Ben Afeaki
- Aaron Smith

I must have missed McLennan's caps for Scotland, or does one sevens appearance count in your stats?

happyhooker wrote:I must have missed McLennan's caps for Scotland, or does one sevens appearance count in your stats?

Oh, thought he was capped for both the Scotland XVs and 7s

naki wrote:
Sometimes the Baby Blacks are more likely to subsequently represent another nation, like this contingent;

2008:

- Rodney Ah You (Ireland)
- Paea Fa’anunu (Tonga)
- Grayson Hart (Scotland)
- Sean Maitland (Scotland)
- Nasi Manu (Tonga)
- Nick McLennan (Scotland)
- Suliasi Taufalele (Tonga)
- Mike Harris (Australia)
- John Hardie (Scotland)
- Tevita Koloamatangi (Tonga)
- Matthew Luamanu (Samoa)
- Ryan Crotty
- Matt Todd
- Sam Whitelock
- Ben Afeaki
- Aaron Smith

You'll have to do this for every year and dish it out when someone brings out the tired old "NZ just poach from the Islands..." line.

... and before anyone questions the Polynesians in that bunch, they were all born in NZ.

Shields was fine and a certainly much better than the hapless Robshaw has been in recent weeks but I don't see the fuss as to why he was fast-tracked into the side - he's not suddenly revolutionised the back row with some skillset that other English players don't have

still unconvinced that snubbing Carl Fearns to go after Shields was a particularly smart move

naki wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:Interesting from Charlie Morgan on Twitter. U20s who've been capped at senior level:




... for comparison, Baby Blacks who've made the step up (only Anscombe gets a mention; not sure how many others represented other countries ... Brad Shields, I think, was in that stellar 2011 side).

Sometimes the Baby Blacks are more likely to subsequently represent another nation, like this contingent;

2008:

- Rodney Ah You (Ireland)
- Paea Fa’anunu (Tonga)
- Grayson Hart (Scotland)
- Sean Maitland (Scotland)
- Nasi Manu (Tonga)
- Nick McLennan (Scotland)
- Suliasi Taufalele (Tonga)
- Mike Harris (Australia)
- John Hardie (Scotland)
- Tevita Koloamatangi (Tonga)
- Matthew Luamanu (Samoa)
- Ryan Crotty
- Matt Todd
- Sam Whitelock
- Ben Afeaki
- Aaron Smith

Interesting review but it does seem to say wait 5 years before you can assess an U20 team in terms of future potential.

England still seems to produce a huge pipeline of talent and then squanders it.

matta25 wrote:Heyes another to watch from U20s

JM2K6 wrote:If Robshaw is too slow then Ewers has no chance. Moot point, though, as Ewers is in the Jack Clifford bracket of porcelain.

Not really, a couple of recent injuries, one bad one from England training, but otherwise not particularly injury prone

He played 11 Premiership matches this season
5 last season
13 the season before

The guy misses huge amount of rugby on a regular basis.

openclashXX wrote:

Quality from all sides on this one. Mail Journo's getting in on the act with some less than impressive research. They are right it's not 25, but it's also not 21. It's 24 and it's on the RFU website

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/ ... 021129.jpg

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/englan ... finalised/

Not available for selection:
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps)

Anonymous. wrote:England are in better shape now than at any stage during our winning streak.

England problems

Front row: Seem to be unable to provide props who can be mobile and scummage. Similar story for hooker and the set piece generally

Locks; NO problem except a bit of form. Oh and except playing them at 6.

Backrow: Eddie Jones f#cking the backrow-up. Not by coaching or selection but by bithcing and having a massive hissy fit about Italy which altered the breakdown rules. Now you had to enter through the gate if in the tackle. Cosideirng Jones backrow plan is get back on the feet and blast opponents off the ruck or secure the ball, well creating rule that delays the backrow from doing that in the tackle has led to this shitfest where England are now useless in the rucks. I's also empowering traditional number 7's who track and pounce on rucks and other backrowers who use openside skills. You know the sort England don't produce right now but virtually every other good nation does? Well done Eddie you utter moron!

Halfbacks: The traditional problem, England don't produce outstanding 9's. Ben Youngs is still to likely to shovel shit slowly, both he and care have this inexplicable tendency to just stand there doing fudge all expect waving their hands at forwards killing momentum and allowing opponents defences to set-up. The most we get is Ben Youngs when on form acting like a scrum half and at leats passing onto running players. Ford is a good ten, but for all his criticisms he's never played with a good scrum half that allows him to constantly exploit defences setting up rather than defences which are set.

Centers: Farrell is part of the problem. What does he offer besides hype and a willingness to shout to set defense? Not much else, he misses tackles, he can't bosh, he can't spot and rip open half gaps, he isn't particularly fast and not creative enough to throw passing onto oncoming runners at an angle that creates an opening. The most we can expect is he'll pass or kick to a massive space already opened and kick his goals if opponents give away penalties.

Back 3: Brown is cooked, but we have no replacement because it's to late to craft another 15. People point to Daly he'll take time to get his positioning and high pressure decisions right. Besides he's a brilliant wing. We are fine on wings, but 15 is a yawing gap.

eldanielfire wrote:Backrow: Eddie Jones f#cking the backrow-up. Not by coaching or selection but by bithcing and having a massive hissy fit about Italy which altered the breakdown rules. Now you had to enter through the gate if in the tackle. Cosideirng Jones backrow plan is get back on the feet and blast opponents off the ruck or secure the ball, well creating rule that delays the backrow from doing that in the tackle has led to this shitfest where England are now useless in the rucks. I's also empowering traditional number 7's who track and pounce on rucks and other backrowers who use openside skills. You know the sort England don't produce right now but virtually every other good nation does? Well done Eddie you utter moron!

This is inane. World Rugby changed this because it looked f**king ridiculous on TV, made a mockery of the sport, and suddenly made life 100 times harder for referees and the breakdowns an utter mess. You absolutely cannot blame Eddie for this. This is mental.

England are "useless" in the rucks because they don't commit enough numbers, they're refereed differently in the AP so are gunshy of competing for the ball, and the actual rule change that affected us was the one about kicking the ball in the ruck, a tactic we used more than anyone else.

JM2K6 wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:Backrow: Eddie Jones f#cking the backrow-up. Not by coaching or selection but by bithcing and having a massive hissy fit about Italy which altered the breakdown rules. Now you had to enter through the gate if in the tackle. Cosideirng Jones backrow plan is get back on the feet and blast opponents off the ruck or secure the ball, well creating rule that delays the backrow from doing that in the tackle has led to this shitfest where England are now useless in the rucks. I's also empowering traditional number 7's who track and pounce on rucks and other backrowers who use openside skills. You know the sort England don't produce right now but virtually every other good nation does? Well done Eddie you utter moron!

This is inane. World Rugby changed this because it looked f**king ridiculous on TV, made a mockery of the sport, and suddenly made life 100 times harder for referees and the breakdowns an utter mess. You absolutely cannot blame Eddie for this. This is mental.

England are "useless" in the rucks because they don't commit enough numbers, they're refereed differently in the AP so are gunshy of competing for the ball, and the actual rule change that affected us was the one about kicking the ball in the ruck, a tactic we used more than anyone else.

World Rugby changed it because every year coaches and refs come together to propose changes and guidance to refs. Wayne Barnes explained this on Rugby Tonight when this particular change came in.

Last I saw no referee had problems with refeering the old law, no ruck if opponents don't contest. It was the England players who had an issue and couldn't work out what was going on by the 3rd one, rather than take advantage for quick and cheap yards.

I do agree the AP refeering and the clubs game plans are also an issue. But that doesn't change the fact the rule about rucks was changed in part due to Eddie's hysterics and his push for the law to change without realising the consequences it would have on England.

Just to be clear Wayne Barnes specifically states Eddie Jones demanded the change to the ruck law in the meeting tier 1 coaches have with refs about law changes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfEz8lCj4BE&t=8s

Just after 5 minutes.

So yes, Eddie Jones is to blame. Who else do you think brought up this as a problem and pushed for it to change?

I reckon about 8/9 of those absentees could be argued by most people into the 23, different ones for different people though. However, maybe only upto 5 could get into the 23 without too many arguments from all quarters.

eldanielfire wrote:

Anonymous. wrote:England are in better shape now than at any stage during our winning streak.

England problems

Front row: Seem to be unable to provide props who can be mobile and scummage. Similar story for hooker and the set piece generally

Locks; NO problem except a bit of form. Oh and except playing them at 6.

Backrow: Eddie Jones f#cking the backrow-up. Not by coaching or selection but by bithcing and having a massive hissy fit about Italy which altered the breakdown rules. Now you had to enter through the gate if in the tackle. Cosideirng Jones backrow plan is get back on the feet and blast opponents off the ruck or secure the ball, well creating rule that delays the backrow from doing that in the tackle has led to this shitfest where England are now useless in the rucks. I's also empowering traditional number 7's who track and pounce on rucks and other backrowers who use openside skills. You know the sort England don't produce right now but virtually every other good nation does? Well done Eddie you utter moron!

Halfbacks: The traditional problem, England don't produce outstanding 9's. Ben Youngs is still to likely to shovel shit slowly, both he and care have this inexplicable tendency to just stand there doing fudge all expect waving their hands at forwards killing momentum and allowing opponents defences to set-up. The most we get is Ben Youngs when on form acting like a scrum half and at leats passing onto running players. Ford is a good ten, but for all his criticisms he's never played with a good scrum half that allows him to constantly exploit defences setting up rather than defences which are set.

Centers: Farrell is part of the problem. What does he offer besides hype and a willingness to shout to set defense? Not much else, he misses tackles, he can't bosh, he can't spot and rip open half gaps, he isn't particularly fast and not creative enough to throw passing onto oncoming runners at an angle that creates an opening. The most we can expect is he'll pass or kick to a massive space already opened and kick his goals if opponents give away penalties.

Back 3: Brown is cooked, but we have no replacement because it's to late to craft another 15. People point to Daly he'll take time to get his positioning and high pressure decisions right. Besides he's a brilliant wing. We are fine on wings, but 15 is a yawing gap.

Front row-
Hartley massive problem
George hyped.
Mako knackered
Genge to come good
Tighthead big problem, sinkler ruined by the Ginge in the scrum.

Lock-
Problem, need a big guy. Where’s our rampaging lock?

Itoje playing like shite.
Lawes to return, in place of Itoje for me atm.

Backrow-
Shields will be fine
Curry good
8 big problem, bulldozer era over.
Underhill and Haskell not done yet.

Halfback-
Young’s massively outclassed by Faf.
Spencer better, can Robson get over the yips?

Fly half-
Ford is fine, but shit scared of carrying ball.
Cips im sure would shine.

Hard for both in a backpedaling side.

Centre-
The Farrell myth,
Poor defence, poor carrying. Undropable....
JJs attacking game had fallen apart but could come back.
Teo needed.

Wing-
Blessed.
May, Daly, Watson, nowell(ish).

Fullback-
Iron mike is just fine at 15, his brain and angles compensate for pace.
Watson can play there. Daly we now know can cover.



Gotta keep the faith with Eddie here, calls to sack him are insane. If the players are acting up them. change them

DragsterDriver wrote: Gotta keep the faith with Eddie here, calls to sack him are insane. If the players are acting up them. change them

When do you start calling him a bluffer?

eldanielfire wrote:Just to be clear Wayne Barnes specifically states Eddie Jones demanded the change to the ruck law in the meeting tier 1 coaches have with refs about law changes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfEz8lCj4BE&t=8s

Just after 5 minutes.

So yes, Eddie Jones is to blame. Who else do you think brought up this as a problem and pushed for it to change?

It was a ridiculous loophole and no team had ever based an entire matches tactic on it until then. England won that match handily and had worked it out after twenty odd minutes; the only problem was the ref rewriting the law on the fly about what constitutes a ruck. It absolutely needed to change.

The law change for that didn't harm England at all. Forcing teams to only get their hands on the ball if they've beaten the ruck is fine. England's main problem with it is that this law is refereed incredibly inconsistently, and we are still seeing turnovers given when a ruck has already been formed. Some refs are stuck in 2016.

We'd be having the exact same problem with the breakdown in 2018 if that law change had never gone through, though. We've had identical issues before.

JM2K6 wrote:

Jake wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:Shields, Curry, Wilson? Who carries?

Shields. He does loads of it.

It's just he does it a lot quicker than you're used to as an England fan so it's easy to miss......

I've only watched him about 30 times...

He's not much of a heavy carrier. Give him a bit of space and he'll do well, but then Simmonds would do better.

Shields is a very worthy player but that back row would struggle for impact.

JM, Shields, Armand and perm one from Underhill, Curry, Mercer, SImmonds or Hughes.

Tell you what, Itoje would be out on his ear if Lawes was fit.

Itoje is lucky he's allowed to play next week, it looked all the world like he tried to kick FdK in the knackers

As I said- dead rubber give Hill a run.

Anyway where did mako go? Wife having a baby?