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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Farrell really isn't a captain. Despite his limitations, it's clear what Hartley brings to the side, and there doesn't seem to be any obvious candidates to take his place, which is a worry.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Hughes again with poor body angles, meat and drink for a good side, not to mention a very stupid yellow card.

Hughes got England on the front foot in several stodgy situations. His one handed pick ups from the base are very effective. There is absolutely nothing to mitigate his YC though. He should be dropped for that shit.


He’s plodder in reality, doesn’t do anything dynamic.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Jones out?

It's not Premier League football.

Should Jones politely resign for the dignity of English rugby?

We've been through worse weather.


Suppose we should just endure it then. But we have been figured out and the players (and team selections) have stagnated IMO. Time will tell though. Jones will have to reinvent this team.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Oxbow wrote:
Farrell really isn't a captain. Despite his limitations, it's clear what Hartley brings to the side, and there doesn't seem to be any obvious candidates to take his place, which is a worry.

I don't think Farrell's captaincy is an issue. As for other candidates Launch captains Wasps and is arguably our most consistent forward.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:22 pm 
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There is no-one else. Jones is it. I don't believe he's cr@p but I didn't believe he was the messiah when we were winning Grand Slams and winning 3-0 in Australia.

I'm not convinced by the forwards as coached by Steve Borthwick, however. Mauling was poor. Breakdown work was average at best. Maybe the latter is symptomatic of our club game, though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Bad shit.

It was gutting to see that every time we could make progress there was another bad decision.

They look like a scared team who has forgotten how to find a win


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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BBC live text with a rather salient point
Quote:
The bit that stands out for me there?

Farrell saying "we have to make sure we look back and see where we went wrong".

Why was no England player able to see what was going wrong during the game?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
There is no-one else. Jones is it. I don't believe he's cr@p but I didn't believe he was the messiah when we were winning Grand Slams and winning 3-0 in Australia.

I'm not convinced by the forwards as coached by Steve Borthwick, however. Mauling was poor. Breakdown work was average at best.


Hatleys scrum.
Borthwicks pack and lineout.
Gustards defence.

The players brains.

The most I’ll hang on Eddie is selection, I think he’s challenging the players and they’re not up to it and they’ll try and out him football style.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:25 pm 
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One of the selections decisions that I disagree with are the starting props. I would have Marler and Williams playing the first stint then bring on the more dynamic Mako and Sinckler as finishers.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
One of the selections decisions that I disagree with are the starting props. I would have Marler and Williams playing the first stint then bring on the more dynamic Mako and Sinckler as finishers.


Absolutely.

Also sinkler got drilled by the Ginge first scrum, should have pulled him ASAP and not give away the PT.

Anyway..


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:27 pm 
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nicebutdim wrote:
Suppose we should just endure it then. But we have been figured out and the players (and team selections) have stagnated IMO. Time will tell though. Jones will have to reinvent this team.

Stagnation is a good description. You could see it setting in last Autumn, winning but less and less impressive doing it.

Sometimes it happens with a winning team, they keep winning (just) so the coach doesn't change anything. Then they start losing and the team has regressed too much to turn it around quickly.

EJ has a job on his hands now, but he has earned the right to do it with what he delivered in the two previous years imo.


Last edited by Rugby2023 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
One of the selections decisions that I disagree with are the starting props. I would have Marler and Williams playing the first stint then bring on the more dynamic Mako and Sinckler as finishers.

Yes.

Makos behaviour at times stinks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:28 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Gospel wrote:
One of the selections decisions that I disagree with are the starting props. I would have Marler and Williams playing the first stint then bring on the more dynamic Mako and Sinckler as finishers.


Absolutely.

Also sinkler got drilled by the Ginge first scrum, should have pulled him ASAP and not give away the PT.

Anyway..

That decision was so Poite. He doesn't mess around with two or three attempts. He could clearly see that Sinckler had been done and the English pack were on roller skates.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Eddie Moans is known for his bizzare selections and tantrums. He did the same when he was with Wallabies and Queensland Reds. To me it looks like a number of players in the team shouldn't be starting at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:30 pm 
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We are going to go into the World Cup having no idea what our best XV is... Just like last time.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Suppose we should just endure it then. But we have been figured out and the players (and team selections) have stagnated IMO. Time will tell though. Jones will have to reinvent this team.

Stagnation is a good description. You could see it setting in last Autumn, winning but less and less impressive doing it.

Sometimes it happens with a winning team, they keep winning (just) so the coach doesn't change anything. Then they start losing and the team has regressed too much to turn it around quickly.

EJ has a job on his hands now, but he has earned the right to do it with what he delivered in the two previous years imo.

I think England players are easily sated with achievement. Winning a brace of Championships seems to have been enough for them. They've not had their collective heads in the game since.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:31 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
Eddie Moans is known for his bizzare selections and tantrums. He did the same when he was with Wallabies and Queensland Reds. To me it looks like a number of players in the team shouldn't be starting at all.

Who shouldn't be starting? I think today's selections were fine. The players were awful though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:33 pm 
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What's a back rower doing at lock? Why is Billy V playing when he doesn't look to be fit. Mako and Itoje probably need to be sitting on the bench as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:36 pm 
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The aerial game is shambolic. Kicks from Ford and Young’s are rarely contestable, and when they are fannies like May and Brown rarely collect. Two very poor knock ons from Brown today and he has been moved to wing for his aerial prowess.Our kicking game therefore just hands possession away, which is why having taken the lead we rarely saw the ball again.

For the umpteenth time I shall say that Ford and Farrell doesn’t work. Ford was awful and Farrell is a mediocre gobshite who will never win over a referee. As a combination they have provided very little evidence that they can manage a game. Losowski and Daly at centre for me with Cipriani at 10 and Spencer or Robson at 9. Young’s is too slow and his passing isn’t consistently good.

The brainless Hughes and Mako should be dropped now, the former from a great height. It was a mistake to bring Billy on tour if he can’t get through 40 mins. George and Slade are ineffective. Sinckler spends the whole game trying to see himself on the big screen. The vain plum must think he’s test class. I would drop Itoje if we had taken Callum Green on tour.

1. Marler
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Launch
6. Shield
7. Curry
8. Wilson
9. Spencer
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Losowski
13. Daly
14. May (but look like you want to catch the ball)
15. Brown


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
What's a back rower doing at lock? Why is Billy V playing when he doesn't look to be fit. Mako and Itoje probably need to be sitting on the bench as well.

Itoje and Launch were the locks. Maro is an auxiliary back rower at best. There's certainly an argument that Billy should have been left at home given he couldn't even play a full half today.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:51 pm 
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I thought Brad Shields was playing lock?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Some reasonably considered thoughts:

In the time soon to be known as the Golden Eddie Run, we had a lot of luck in games. Bounces went our way, TMO decisions tended to favour us and I was happy, always good to be a lucky team. Confidence spiralled and we genuinely looked the real deal. Australia being the high point, apart from smashing Scotland. Now, the luck appears to have turned, the decisions go against us and confidence has nosedived.

I know some have said that this defeat cannot be blamed on Eddie but is down to the players but Eddie selected the squad and the 23. We went into a game against SA with no 2nd row on the bench again. With Launchbury knowing he has to go the whole game at altitude because there is no real option on the bench. This is down to Eddie, he picked Isiekwe and Hill and now has no confidence in either of them to even sit on the bench. This is terrible management and I would not be surprised if the Sarries players are losing confidence in Eddie and his handling of players.

If this was a football team and they had been outfought, outthought and out played there would be big headlines about the manager losing the dressing room and I think that is exactly what has happened.

The onfield decision making is becoming more bizarre both individually and as a team. Farrell is a one dimensional screamer as captain and that is not going to engender the important ref/captain relationship that the good teams have.

Interested to see that Woodward would drop players who he could not trust not to do something stupid and Mako is the prime example. Some players have bad days but Mako seems to decide that on a bad day he will just do something petulent and cost his team, that's at least 3 times for England and once for the Lions.

Its a ballsy call for the high ups to decide what happens now. If the players are honest in the post tour review and say they've lost trust in the coaching setup then we need to change.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:07 pm 
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TopNacker wrote:
The aerial game is shambolic. Kicks from Ford and Young’s are rarely contestable, and when they are fannies like May and Brown rarely collect. Two very poor knock ons from Brown today and he has been moved to wing for his aerial prowess.Our kicking game therefore just hands possession away, which is why having taken the lead we rarely saw the ball again.

For the umpteenth time I shall say that Ford and Farrell doesn’t work. Ford was awful and Farrell is a mediocre gobshite who will never win over a referee. As a combination they have provided very little evidence that they can manage a game. Losowski and Daly at centre for me with Cipriani at 10 and Spencer or Robson at 9. Young’s is too slow and his passing isn’t consistently good.

The brainless Hughes and Mako should be dropped now, the former from a great height. It was a mistake to bring Billy on tour if he can’t get through 40 mins. George and Slade are ineffective. Sinckler spends the whole game trying to see himself on the big screen. The vain plum must think he’s test class. I would drop Itoje if we had taken Callum Green on tour.

1. Marler
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Launch
6. Shield
7. Curry
8. Wilson
9. Spencer
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Losowski
13. Daly
14. May (but look like you want to catch the ball)
15. Brown


Fair shout of a team- not sure about that no4?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:09 pm 
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We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?



1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson

Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:19 pm 
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BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.

Really unimpressed with him atm.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:20 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
I thought Brad Shields was playing lock?

No he was selected on the blindside ahead of Robshaw.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.

Really unimpressed with him atm.

My worry about Itoje is that he's just not enough of a physical specimen. He looks underpowered out there at times.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:23 pm 
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MrDominator wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
BTW Itoje escapes blue murder at times out there.

Really unimpressed with him atm.

My worry about Itoje is that he's just not enough of a physical specimen. He looks underpowered out there at times.

You could say that about a lot of the pack.
We look so small at times all over.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
Oxbow wrote:
Farrell really isn't a captain. Despite his limitations, it's clear what Hartley brings to the side, and there doesn't seem to be any obvious candidates to take his place, which is a worry.

I don't think Farrell's captaincy is an issue. As for other candidates Launch captains Wasps and is arguably our most consistent forward.


He's a shouty, petulant captain who irritates referees and so can't build any kind of relationship with them. Why hasn't Eddie looked at Launch?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Madness wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?



1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson

Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections


Haskell
Manu


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Madness wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
We have 25 players missing according to Eddie. Who would they be?



1. Genge
2. Hartley, Dunn
3. Cole
4. Kruis, Ewels
5. Lawes
6. Willis
7. Underwood
8. Clifford
9. Care, Wiggles
10. Mallinder
11. Nowell
12. Teo
13. Joseph
14. Roko
15. Watson

Can't think of many more, unless we are getting into real weird selections


I thought Grnge was touring. I also do not think we can consider either Underwood


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Haskell would have been a real asset for this tour given the physicality of South Africa and would have dove-tailed nicely with the stupid shit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Genge is injured. On tour.

Farrell's lack of captaincy nous was borne out by him turning down three points which would have put us 15-10 up, away from home in a tough Test, which quickly turned the momentum, and then not looking to cut the lead to 15-20 with plenty of time left on the clock.

Both times we screwed up and just fell further into a hole of chasing the game.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Still the wrong decision both times.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Joseph or Te’o would have been a big help, other than that missing players are no excuse.

Sinkler didn’t go so well today, amazingly given our depth locks have been shite.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:59 pm 
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It will be interesting to see if we can sustain our early efforts better away from altitude. The core weakness of this team for a year now has been being awful at the breakdown and I thought Curry and Shields looked promising. Drop Billy because he is a passenger. Hughes looks a trundler these days so I'd try Shields, Curry and Wilson. Flip the props. Brown is - whatever bored lore insists - currently our best defensive fullback. Daly might be the answer at 13. Let's see Denny on the wing. Ford has been great for the first 20 each game and then fallen off so maybe we do give Cipriani a look?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:02 pm 
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I'd drop Mako, Itoje and Hughes completely. Even if just to make a point.

Bring in Hepburn, Simmonds (lightweight yes but can play 7 or 8) + 1 lock. Test it out just to see how the discipline goes when they are not in the side.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Suggesting 9 changes is crazy. You can't do that and expect any level of cohesion in attack or defence.

Very few starting players impressed. Cips should be given the chance to shine. Start the sub front row. Start one of either Spencer (Youngs has had two awful matches in a row) or Solomona.

Hope Billy isn't broken.

Even that's a crazy amount of changes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.


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