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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:56 am 
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Petros wrote:
Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6 :shock: :x


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1


I like Slade but he doesn't have that mongrel you need to have in his possition if you are his size.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 am 
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Back row is getting there, centres next. Faz isn’t up to it.


Wonder what odds on shields being captain by the rwc,? :o


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:19 am 
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The breakdown wasn't even that bad yesterday. It is just pure idiocy that costs England. When they got in SA's 22 and got the ball through hands in the backs, looked very dangerous.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:21 am 
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Anonymous. wrote:
Petros wrote:
Just looking at ESPN's stats

Slade made 5 tackles missed 6 :shock: :x


Penalties
Mako 3
Fazlet, Maro 2
George, Sinckler, Williams, Hughes, May, Brown 1


I like Slade but he doesn't have that mongrel you need to have in his possition if you are his size.


Slightly unfair stat, a couple of those were kick chases where he got stepped but did enough to make sure the next guy there made the tackle. He was poor though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:23 am 
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englishchief wrote:
The breakdown wasn't even that bad yesterday. It is just pure idiocy that costs England. When they got in SA's 22 and got the ball through hands in the backs, looked very dangerous.


That and an inability to catch the flipping ball, I can't remember us dropping so many.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:28 am 
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On a positive note, how good has Johnny May been!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:49 am 
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Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:53 am 
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Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:57 am 
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Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:07 am 
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englishchief wrote:
Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.


Spotting that throwing a wild blind offload, during a very messy phase of play (therefore players of both sides all over the place), is a risky play, is not insightful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:08 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:16 am 
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Raggs wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Brown was unusually bad under the high ball.

Barnes did actually make one piece of insightful commentary yesterday. When it was 13-13 at the start of the second half, England were attacking then Ben Youngs decided to throw a no-look offload with no England player in sight. Ball got turned over, Boks won a pen (I think), got in to the 22 then scored a try. All from that moment of idiocy.


Spotting that throwing a wild blind offload, during a very messy phase of play (therefore players of both sides all over the place), is a risky play, is not insightful.


I meant that he made clear the domino effect of this single mistake


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:18 am 
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Young’s plays nearly as well as he interviews.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:22 am 
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Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


The lack of a physical presence in midfield in killing us, we just give up the gainline far too easily. Without Teo or Tuilagi (if he ever comes back) we just don't have anyone. Farrell getting a bit stroppy just isn't cutting it. We'd be better off with Barrit there at the moment!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:40 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


It was decent, but it wasn't smart, and that's annoying from the captain.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:54 am 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
Genge is injured. On tour.

Farrell's lack of captaincy nous was borne out by him turning down three points which would have put us 15-10 up, away from home in a tough Test, which quickly turned the momentum, and then not looking to cut the lead to 15-20 with plenty of time left on the clock.

Both times we screwed up and just fell further into a hole of chasing the game.


You'd have thought he of all people might have learnt from 2015!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:58 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


Every time we've started T'eo he looks a long way off being international class, though.

Very harsh on Faz and Robshaw to lump them in with a guy like Youngs who's been bad since the previous season. If you're expecting them to be gone forever, well, Robshaw may not make it back if Shields improves, but there's almost no chance Farrell would be dropped for long (if he gets dropped at all).

Cips looked bloody good when he came on, which is nice. Slade is exactly as I said last week - soft and a total luxury of a player - but we have other options at 13.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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matta25 wrote:
Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.

Mako was imperious in the ap final.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:03 am 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
matta25 wrote:
Was a dumb call to bring Mako on tour in the first place. I know it's easy to say with hindsight but I wish Eddie has just given most of the senior/flogged guys the summer off and taken fringe players with a point to prove instead. If we're going to lose 3-0 at least we'd have maybe found a couple of gems. As is there's pretty much nothing (positive) we've learned in two games.

Mako was imperious in the ap final.


He was, but he's played a stupid amount of rugby and a tour to SA (with 2 matches at altitude) was the last thing he needed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:06 am 
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In the school of knee jerk picking a backline of players we could have, many who seem better purely for not being involved recently then lets go for this backline next season

Robson
Cips
Daley
Manu
JJ
Wade
Watson

Now that's a good set of backs......providing we get front foot ball, no one needs to defend too much, no one gets too many high balls on the back 3 etc etc


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:06 am 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Has to be questions also about the league itself now. Not really the format, per se, but does the league produce international standard rugby players?

Sure, a case can be made for it, for the South Africans, however barring them, I'm yet to see a foreign international come to our league in their prime, improve and play for their national side. I'm looking at the top 14 and the Super 16 and thinking we can't play at that pace. We don't play anything like that, at any age group.

Not all of this is Eddie Jones and the Lions, alot of this must be laid at the clubs/league as well. Very clearly at the moment we're way off.

Is this a parody post?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:08 am 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
Has to be questions also about the league itself now. Not really the format, per se, but does the league produce international standard rugby players?

Sure, a case can be made for it, for the South Africans, however barring them, I'm yet to see a foreign international come to our league in their prime, improve and play for their national side. I'm looking at the top 14 and the Super 16 and thinking we can't play at that pace. We don't play anything like that, at any age group.

Not all of this is Eddie Jones and the Lions, alot of this must be laid at the clubs/league as well. Very clearly at the moment we're way off.

Is this a parody post?


It's Wendigo. If he can't overreach in comical style, he won't post.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:09 am 
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Madness wrote:
In the school of knee jerk picking a backline of players we could have, many who seem better purely for not being involved recently then lets go for this backline next season

Robson
Cips
Daley
Manu
JJ
Wade
Watson

Now that's a good set of backs......providing we get front foot ball, no one needs to defend too much, no one gets too many high balls on the back 3 etc etc


Charlie Walker instead of Daly please, Daly's a busted flush now obviously.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:12 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


Every time we've started T'eo he looks a long way off being international class, though.

Very harsh on Faz and Robshaw to lump them in with a guy like Youngs who's been bad since the previous season. If you're expecting them to be gone forever, well, Robshaw may not make it back if Shields improves, but there's almost no chance Farrell would be dropped for long (if he gets dropped at all).

Cips looked bloody good when he came on, which is nice. Slade is exactly as I said last week - soft and a total luxury of a player - but we have other options at 13.


I've yet to see Slade have anything but a poor game in an England shirt.

SH has been an issue for us for years - Have two worse SHs ever been capped as many times as Youngs and Care. Despite that, Eddie has never given potential replacements a chance to make their case.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:25 am 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:43 am 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Those wanting to drop Hughes, Itoje and Mako for idiotic penalties, whilst I agree, why aren't we dropping Farrell for the same? Just because the ref wasn't sure what happened and shouted "Play on" doesn't mean that Farrell shouldn't have recognised he was offside from the last 2 fecking rucks, and can't just pick up the ball!!!

Thought Hughes was going well until that retarded play, so mindless. What on earth was going through his head???

I'll do ruck marks at some point.

Fine. I'm still not sure if Farrell was offside at that point, surely a fumble in play means you can't be offside/the offside line isn't set, but that might be me misinterpreting.

That Hughes thing was incredible. We were unlucky with Mosterts fine intervention to stop a try shortly afterwards, but Hughes killing the momentum like that and Mako doing what he did was beyond stupid, it was obscene.

I saw elsewhere someone commented that it's the Saracens players not used to getting their own way and getting frustrated. That actually might be right, seriously. However, if that is it, drop the f**king lot of them. You can't do that at international and expect to get away with it. Mako has been a serial offender of penalties since Lancaster? DROP HIM.

It might mean a slight drop off in standard but if we're looking at options, Hepburn isn't the worst and did well in SA last time in the B's against what is now quite a few of the same Saffa side. We bemoan the penalties, well these were happening in Lancaster's era too. It's not all the coach, some of those is serial offenders doing it again, and again, and again. You let them off because they are the best players, sure, but after a while you can't do that. He's got to go, even if just to see how we are without him and the stupidity. Cole's not there and sadly Sinckler's just in poor form, however stupid breakdown penalties from an England "3" isn't occurring, so that's some improvement. But serial offenders need to be dealt with now.

Sink looks underpowered to me, which is criminal.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:47 am 
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Guys, it's clear that absolutely none of this team can hack it, and someone needs to make some bold appointments to save this world cup attempt. Jones needs to call up exactly all of the following players or be fired immediately.

1. Andrew Sheridan
2. Hartley, because he's been gone for a couple of weeks and we all suddenly like him now
3. Paul Doran Jones must have that many caps for some reason, right?
4. Brad Shields (Captain)
5. Attwood, but only while he's still playing in France
6. Worsley or Worsley-equivalent
7. Steffon Armitage
8. Carl Fearns' Right Hook

9. Robson on some kind of anxiety meds
10. One Last World Cup (again) For Wilko
11. Whichever one of the U20s has the best 50m sprint time
12. Ayoola Erinle
13. Tomkins, Tompkins, Thomkins, whichever was the crap one
14. Christian Wade At Last
15. Chris Ashton


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:56 am 
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ovalball wrote:

I've yet to see Slade have anything but a poor game in an England shirt.



Baabaas game... was it 2015? It was*. Partnership with Burgess pre-RWC.

I haven't watched him at Exeter this year nor really analysed England recently, but it feels like the outside centre is never a strike option. Decoy or an immediate passe to the wing?

* I'd love to see that midfield partnership again: Cipriani, Slade (see if he can understudy for Farrell), Daly (more agile, picks great lines)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:16 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Raggs wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Tez wrote:
Anyone else think Farrell is not a good captain? I don’t know how he is with his team behind the scenes but on the pitch the last thing you need is a hot headed skipper whining and barking at the ref with that angry look on his face. I know his team is losing but he has to change that pained look and exude a calm authority. If your captain is panicking and barking at you you’re sunk.


Yes he’s also a shit captain, good tap tackle
Though.


If he'd missed the tap (and let's agree it's not a guaranteed thing), all he'd have achieved is blocking the fastest man on the pitch from getting to the carrier.


Was still decent.

We have a watershed moment really, Young’s, Farrell, robshaw, not good enough. Might just as well ply Spencer.

Deffo missing t’eo, pointless having Farrell outside ford.


Every time we've started T'eo he looks a long way off being international class, though.

Very harsh on Faz and Robshaw to lump them in with a guy like Youngs who's been bad since the previous season. If you're expecting them to be gone forever, well, Robshaw may not make it back if Shields improves, but there's almost no chance Farrell would be dropped for long (if he gets dropped at all).

Cips looked bloody good when he came on, which is nice. Slade is exactly as I said last week - soft and a total luxury of a player - but we have other options at 13.


Teo is a decent outlet, faz isn’t and the captain thing doesn’t suit him. But I agree he won’t be dropped.

Now robshaw has been rested it’ll be a regular if not permanent I suspect- shields and curry did well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Interesting from Charlie Morgan on Twitter. U20s who've been capped at senior level:

Image


... for comparison, Baby Blacks who've made the step up (only Anscombe gets a mention; not sure how many others represented other countries ... Brad Shields, I think, was in that stellar 2011 side).

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:25 pm 
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2011 was also England's best year. 10 capped players and Sam Jones was heading for his first cap when Eddie's training broke him for good.

Interesting to note that Wasps will have 6 of the 46 players from the 2011 final in next season's squad
Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Sapoaga, Daly & Wade


Last edited by Petros on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Only the finals is a bit odd. Fairly sure both Curries played u20s lat season.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:31 pm 
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just glancing across the squads looking at the scrum-halves in each year :uhoh:

Petros wrote:
Interesting to note that Wasps will have 6 of the 46 players from the 2011 final in next season's squad
Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Sapoaga, Daly & Wade


Charlie Matthews? ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Only the finals is a bit odd. Fairly sure both Curries played u20s lat season.

Nope, one was in Argentina. Was the other injured?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:47 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
just glancing across the squads looking at the scrum-halves in each year :uhoh:

Petros wrote:
Interesting to note that Wasps will have 6 of the 46 players from the 2011 final in next season's squad
Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Sapoaga, Daly & Wade


Charlie Matthews? ;)

I forgot we had signed him! :blush:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Petros wrote:
2011 was also England's best year. 10 capped players and Sam Jones was heading for his first cap when Eddie's training broke him for good.

Interesting to note that Wasps will have 6 of the 46 players from the 2011 final in next season's squad
Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Sapoaga, Daly & Wade


Andy Short was with us for a stretch too, and isn't Everard coaching the academy to some degree now?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Billy V has refractured his arm.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
Billy V has refractured his arm.


FFS


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
Billy V has refractured his arm.


Poor bugger :(

It wasn't fair to throw a guy so obviously not match fit into a series in SA; but that just puts a tin hat on the tour.


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