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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Looks like O'Connor and Van Rensburg are back in training for us, a huge boost. Doesn't solve our powderpuff pack, mind... :|


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:33 pm 
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blindcider wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Joost wrote:
Double wrote:
Marler not going to England training for 'personal reasons', but training with Quins and playing on the weekend... Any speculative reason or has there been a falling out already?


Is not wanting to get injured doing some unnecessarily dangerous drill a personal reason, perhaps?!


That should be his England career done


Without knowing the facts of the "personal reasons" it isn't really fair to make any conclusions. He might not be able to spend several days away from home or whatever


He's clearly not got any injury or fitness issues else he wouldn't be available for Quins

So there's going to need to be a pretty decent reason to excuse him


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:34 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
blindcider wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Joost wrote:
Double wrote:
Marler not going to England training for 'personal reasons', but training with Quins and playing on the weekend... Any speculative reason or has there been a falling out already?


Is not wanting to get injured doing some unnecessarily dangerous drill a personal reason, perhaps?!


That should be his England career done


Without knowing the facts of the "personal reasons" it isn't really fair to make any conclusions. He might not be able to spend several days away from home or whatever


He's clearly not got any injury or fitness issues else he wouldn't be available for Quins

So there's going to need to be a pretty decent reason to excuse him


Hence 'personal reasons' rather than 'injury'.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:35 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
blindcider wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Joost wrote:
Double wrote:
Marler not going to England training for 'personal reasons', but training with Quins and playing on the weekend... Any speculative reason or has there been a falling out already?


Is not wanting to get injured doing some unnecessarily dangerous drill a personal reason, perhaps?!


That should be his England career done


Without knowing the facts of the "personal reasons" it isn't really fair to make any conclusions. He might not be able to spend several days away from home or whatever


He's clearly not got any injury or fitness issues else he wouldn't be available for Quins

So there's going to need to be a pretty decent reason to excuse him


And there's absolutely no personal reasons whatsoever that could cover that... Nosiree, best just kick him out of the England squad.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
Wasps secure an agreement with Old Leamingtonians RFC to build a permanent training base by their ground:

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-statement-1/
Quote:
Nick Eastwood, chief executive of Wasps Group, said: “We are delighted that the members of Old Leamingtonians RFC have agreed a majority vote in favour of Wasps building a permanent training base at The Crofts on Bericote Road.

“We have established a very positive relationship with Old Leamingtonians and will now work closely with them to draw up, agree and submit a planning application.

“We are grateful for the co-operation of Old Leamingtonians along with other stakeholders and third parties, and look forward to working with them in the future to deliver a top-quality training centre.

“We continue to operate from the training base at Broadstreet RFC, and are very grateful to the club for the continued support in the use of their excellent facilities.”


That it was easier for them to pitch up in Leamington Spa, a town with a population of 55,000, than in Coventry, a city with a population of 360,000, tells you a lot about how things are in Cov



Jamma will be able to walk to training.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Bradwall Boy wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
Wasps secure an agreement with Old Leamingtonians RFC to build a permanent training base by their ground:

https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/wasps-statement-1/
Quote:
Nick Eastwood, chief executive of Wasps Group, said: “We are delighted that the members of Old Leamingtonians RFC have agreed a majority vote in favour of Wasps building a permanent training base at The Crofts on Bericote Road.

“We have established a very positive relationship with Old Leamingtonians and will now work closely with them to draw up, agree and submit a planning application.

“We are grateful for the co-operation of Old Leamingtonians along with other stakeholders and third parties, and look forward to working with them in the future to deliver a top-quality training centre.

“We continue to operate from the training base at Broadstreet RFC, and are very grateful to the club for the continued support in the use of their excellent facilities.”


That it was easier for them to pitch up in Leamington Spa, a town with a population of 55,000, than in Coventry, a city with a population of 360,000, tells you a lot about how things are in Cov



Jamma will be able to walk to training.


Bet you they almost all will, I'd be fucking astonished if any of them had taken a look at the housing options and thought "you know, having weighed up the options I think Nuneaton is the place for me"


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:07 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
blindcider wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Joost wrote:
Double wrote:
Marler not going to England training for 'personal reasons', but training with Quins and playing on the weekend... Any speculative reason or has there been a falling out already?


Is not wanting to get injured doing some unnecessarily dangerous drill a personal reason, perhaps?!


That should be his England career done


Without knowing the facts of the "personal reasons" it isn't really fair to make any conclusions. He might not be able to spend several days away from home or whatever


He's clearly not got any injury or fitness issues else he wouldn't be available for Quins

So there's going to need to be a pretty decent reason to excuse him
I do know of one England player of recent times who was excluded from an Eddie squad for a disciplinary reason that the media didn't know, and it was passed off as injury/ personal/ reason/ other.

I'm deliberately being vague so the player (and therefore the source) hopefully can't be identified (plus the exact details of the disciplinary offence) weren't disclosed to me either. But the point I'm making is the Eddie isn't averse to some white lies when it comes the reasons for squad exclusions (e.g. claiming Cips' exclusion is based on form)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Marler set to retire from international duty apparently.

Probably won't be the last either given the ludicrous number of games these guys are expected to play.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Odd, and a definite loss, despite him being a bit of a twat.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
Odd, and a definite loss, despite him being a bit of a twat.



Indeed. Mako is a far inferior scrumager. Still interesting he retires form England one year to a World Cup at 28. If it's not serious personal reasons, then Eddie?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Dobbin wrote:
Odd, and a definite loss, despite him being a bit of a twat.

Twat or no twat! You are spot on!!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:26 pm 
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That's a pity, not everyone's cup of tea but a very good player. Not great timing from an England perspective though with Genge gone for a long time. Might be an opportunity for VRR.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Big blow from an England perspective, kind of out of the blue too.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:31 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
Odd, and a definite loss, despite him being a bit of a twat.



Indeed. Mako is a far inferior scrumager. Still interesting he retires form England one year to a World Cup at 28. If it's not serious personal reasons, then Eddie?


Mental health, I think. He's been pretty open about it, and he has refused to tour before to try and get his head straight.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:02 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
Odd, and a definite loss, despite him being a bit of a twat.



Indeed. Mako is a far inferior scrumager. Still interesting he retires form England one year to a World Cup at 28. If it's not serious personal reasons, then Eddie?


Mental health, I think. He's been pretty open about it, and he has refused to tour before to try and get his head straight.


Needs to get him scrummaging f**king straight as well, mind...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:08 am 
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Lots of articles in the papers about EJ's ridiculous training sessions:

Quote:
The club-versus-country row was reignited yesterday after Wasps left three England players out of their starting line-up to play tonight and Johnny Sexton claimed that he is “managed better” than Owen Farrell.
For their game away to Newcastle Falcons in the Gallagher Premiership, Wasps have left Elliot Daly, Nathan Hughes and Dan Robson on the bench after the three-day training camp in Bristol held by Eddie Jones, the England head coach, left them unable to train with their club until yesterday.
Mark Wilson, the Newcastle and England flanker, will start for his side, but has acknowledged that training with England is far more intense than with their clubs. “We don’t go into England camp that often, it’s a short amount of time you have to put your hand up,” Wilson told The Times. “If we trained at our clubs at the level we train at international camps, we would never last, you’d have boys dropping all over the place, because of how long a season is.”
The intensity of Jones’s training and the number of injuries being suffered prompted Premiership clubs, the players’ primary employers, to complain this year. Farrell reportedly returned from England’s summer tour with exhaustion. Sexton, the Ireland fly half, says that their player-management system, in which they are employed by the union, is advantageous.
“We’re very lucky in Ireland with how well we’re looked after,” Sexton said. “I get compared to Owen Farrell a lot. We probably came back [after pre-season] two weeks earlier than the Saracens players, but we are managed better. We miss the first two Pro 14 games, we have nine games between now and the November internationals, and I’m allowed to play six or seven.”




It's hard to understand why the RFU are sticking with EJ.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:22 am 
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Yes, it's very tough to understand why the RFU are persisting with the only coach to have secured England multiple 6 Nations titles in over a decade instead of letting him go and starting a hunt for a new coach with a year to go until a World Cup. Baffling, really. Especially when damning statements are emerging like "training sessions for a team you're with sporadically for a total time span of a couple of months in a year are much more intense than training sessions for a team you're with the entire rest of the time bar a few weeks of off-season". Why didn't they listen to the vast outcry from the supporters that Lancaster should be kept on after RWC2015, instead of doing the unpopular thing and hire Eddie Jones, whom nobody after 2015 rated at all due to his pathetically underperforming Japan team.

In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:38 am 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


That sounds like a cunning plan.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:47 am 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
Yes, it's very tough to understand why the RFU are persisting with the only coach to have secured England multiple 6 Nations titles in over a decade instead of letting him go and starting a hunt for a new coach with a year to go until a World Cup. Baffling, really. Especially when damning statements are emerging like "training sessions for a team you're with sporadically for a total time span of a couple of months in a year are much more intense than training sessions for a team you're with the entire rest of the time bar a few weeks of off-season". Why didn't they listen to the vast outcry from the supporters that Lancaster should be kept on after RWC2015, instead of doing the unpopular thing and hire Eddie Jones, whom nobody after 2015 rated at all due to his pathetically underperforming Japan team.

In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


One good season in 2016 with a team that he inherited. They have been rubbish since (including 2017 when they were extremely fortunate to win the 6N). He hasn't developed one single player for England but has broken many. Press EJect.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:50 am 
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Nobleman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
Yes, it's very tough to understand why the RFU are persisting with the only coach to have secured England multiple 6 Nations titles in over a decade instead of letting him go and starting a hunt for a new coach with a year to go until a World Cup. Baffling, really. Especially when damning statements are emerging like "training sessions for a team you're with sporadically for a total time span of a couple of months in a year are much more intense than training sessions for a team you're with the entire rest of the time bar a few weeks of off-season". Why didn't they listen to the vast outcry from the supporters that Lancaster should be kept on after RWC2015, instead of doing the unpopular thing and hire Eddie Jones, whom nobody after 2015 rated at all due to his pathetically underperforming Japan team.

In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


One good season in 2016 with a team that he inherited. They have been rubbish since (including 2017 when they were extremely fortunate to win the 6N). He hasn't developed one single player for England but has broken many. Press EJect.


Image

Never, ever, talk in absolutes.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:54 am 
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Of all the things you might consider criticising Jones for, that's a weird one. He's not brought many players through in positions of perceived dire need (scrum half, full back, inside centre), but he's certainly not been afraid of chucking in some new blood in other areas even if age profile-wise they're not new (see Wilson and Armand, both of whom should probably have had more opportunities to play than they've received, but Jones definitely brought them into the fold for England).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:10 pm 
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"Hasn't developed one single player for England" :lol:

Errr, how about Elliot Daly?! Hadn't played for England and had hardly played wing at the point EJ capped him there, but ended-up a test Lion on the wing and one of England's most important players.

How about Kyle Sinckler - picked for England very early and ended-up a test Lion. He also serially brings young, unknown players into the squad as a development tool.

If anything, I'd say he's brought in and developed more young players than Lancaster (who was pretty good at it himself).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Nobleman wrote:
He hasn't developed one single player for England but has broken many. Press EJect.


If anyone's wondering, constantly wading through absolute nonsense like this is half the reason I took a chainsaw to my time spent on the bored


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Joost wrote:
"Hasn't developed one single player for England" :lol:

Errr, how about Elliot Daly?! Hadn't played for England and had hardly played wing at the point EJ capped him there, but ended-up a test Lion on the wing and one of England's most important players.

How about Kyle Sinckler - picked for England very early and ended-up a test Lion. He also serially brings young, unknown players into the squad as a development tool.

If anything, I'd say he's brought in and developed more young players than Lancaster (who was pretty good at it himself).


Daly was in the RWC 2015 training squad and EJ made a lot of comments in 2016 about how Daly wasn't good enough. If anything, it was the 2017 Lions tour that was making of Daly (and the same could be said for Sinckler although to describe Sinckler as an established international is pushing it).
Player development has been a disaster under EJ. We have so many positions where there is no obvious young player coming through. Inviting some unheard of 18 year old to a England training session does not constitute player development.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Nobleman wrote:
Joost wrote:
"Hasn't developed one single player for England" :lol:

Errr, how about Elliot Daly?! Hadn't played for England and had hardly played wing at the point EJ capped him there, but ended-up a test Lion on the wing and one of England's most important players.

How about Kyle Sinckler - picked for England very early and ended-up a test Lion. He also serially brings young, unknown players into the squad as a development tool.

If anything, I'd say he's brought in and developed more young players than Lancaster (who was pretty good at it himself).


Daly was in the RWC 2015 training squad and EJ made a lot of comments in 2016 about how Daly wasn't good enough. If anything, it was the 2017 Lions tour that was making of Daly (and the same could be said for Sinckler although to describe Sinckler as an established international is pushing it).
Player development has been a disaster under EJ. We have so many positions where there is no obvious young player coming through. Inviting some unheard of 18 year old to a England training session does not constitute player development.


Tbh, if you're not able to credit taking two uncapped players (to use just those examples) and getting them to a position where they're on a Lions tour within 18 months as decent player development, then I don't think there's much point discussing this further.

The coming season is the big one for me; we've had the high of the back-to-back 6 nations wins and the unbeaten run (let's not forget that EJ still has a pretty exceptional record against SH sides for England), followed by the poor results in the 6N and the summer tour. Was this year just a blip after the Lions and can he get England back on-track over the next 6 months? Guess we'll see.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:17 pm 
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The only other coaching job that EJ has held for 3 years or more was with Australia. Is history repeating itself?



Quote:
OWEN SLOT
Eddie Jones said losing was good with Australia, then he was sacked

The question for England and Eddie Jones: is history repeating itself? On Saturday night, when Jones was picking through the bones of a fifth consecutive Test defeat, the head coach was asked if his experience would count in his favour. “Well, I haven’t had too many times when I have experienced this,” he said. Unfortunately, the closest he has come to this was when he was the Australia coach and it did not end well. It ended with the sack.

Again, he said on Saturday: “I have experienced this with other teams, not to the extent of losing five games.” When he was the Wallabies coach, though, he actually lost more: seven defeats on the trot, then victory over Ireland followed by defeat in Cardiff. Eight losses in nine and he was sacked.
The parallels are unfortunate. He was widely criticised for the unstinting faith he had in his captain, George Gregan — which sounds like a Dylan Hartley storyline. He was criticised because his team made the same errors from game to game and, as head coach, he was unable to eradicate them — which is exactly what has been going on with England in South Africa. There was concern that his Wallabies team could not win in South Africa. Ditto again.

He was operating in a privileged position. The Wallabies at that time were described in The Australian as “the most lavishly financed Wallabies side of all time”, the same case for England now. His public response when the defeats started was a carbon copy, too. The seventh loss in that run was against England at Twickenham. “Out of this, we’ll get some good,” he said. “It’s hard to see at the moment but we will. We’ll have a very good team here.” Give or take, this is exactly what he has been saying since England started losing.

Rot set in for Jones’s Wallabies in South Africa. This was July 2005, two Tests that they flew in for wearing state-of-the-art sunglasses that were expected to reduce the effects of jet lag. The consequent ridicule continued with a nightclub incident that resulted in one player being sent home, and then the discovery of a team questionnaire with one prominent question: if you were a cannibal, which team-mate would you eat? The popular answer, apparently, was Matt Dunning, the loose-head prop. Jones’s Wallabies lost both Tests. The South African Sunday Times called them “buttheads of the week” and their coach was renamed “Eddie Moans”.

They returned home, lost the remaining three games of the Tri- Nations and by the time they left for their November tour, the knives were out. Alan Jones, the radio broadcaster and former Wallabies coach, was constantly calling for Jones to be sacked.

The first Test on tour was defeat by France in Marseilles and the volume of criticism merely rose. “Something’s got to happen, someone’s got to go,” David Campese said on the radio. “Australia made the same old errors,” was the line in The Sydney Morning Herald. “When there is a big moment, they make the big mistake.” These lines could be applied to England now.

The wheels were in motion. Before the next game, at Twickenham, Jones gave breezy interviews in which he expressed utter confidence in his ability to turn it around — reminiscent of the present day with England. They lost to England, beat Ireland, lost to Wales and, then, he was sacked. Crucial to the decision was the testimony of three senior players given to Australian Rugby Union (ARU) management that Jones had to go. Two were reported to have threatened to quit if he did not.
The bottom line here is that Jones’s repeated assertion that losing sequences are good — even essential — is clearly flawed. The 2007 World Cup-winning Springboks, with whom he was a consultant coach, did lose five in a row in 2006 and then three in succession in 2007. His Brumbies, who won the Super Rugby title in 2001, were terrible in his first season three years earlier. This is the evidence on which he can base his losing-is-good theory.

The All Blacks never lost more than two in a row in the four-year stretch before either of their recent World Cup wins. Jones’s other experience of repeated defeat was with the Queensland Reds in 2007, where he won only two games all season and then resigned. Maybe his Reds and Wallabies teams would have bottomed out if he had stayed. The question, which applies now to the RFU, is: how long does he get to prove he is right?

In his book Inside the Wallabies, Greg Growden, the respected Australian rugby journalist, expresses admiration for Jones’s skill and knowledge as a coach, yet he explains: “He made the fatal mistake of isolating himself. He was too much of a one-man band.”

And now? He is still a one-man band but he is probably less isolated and better at managing upwards. He had little interest in playing the politics of the ARU; with the RFU, he is not much changed but he understands at least that it has to be done. He remains a coach who pushes players and staff close to breaking point and, when you go through serial defeats, that point comes closer.

Thirteen years ago, the ARU decided that moment had come. There is much here that is similar, yet it is a pattern the RFU are desperate not to follow.





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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:25 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


He was brought into the camp, but to the best of my knowledge went uncapped due to getting injured. I know this because I work, on occasion, with his girlfriend's dad [/subglobby]


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:25 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:36 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


I don't disagree, I remember having arguments with Raggs at the time that I preferred Jake White to Eddie as England coach

Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:31 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


I don't disagree, I remember having arguments with Raggs at the time that I preferred Jake White to Eddie as England coach

Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


Agreed. As somebody said ironically if England were in this position now under another coach, a newly appointed Eddie Jones would be the perfect coach to turn a team around with a year to go :lol: .


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:26 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.





I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.




A good many of these owe their development to Fletcher and Walton who were summarily dismissed by the RFU. (Ryan/Melville)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:12 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


Ben Spencer picked up a couple of caps in SA didn’t he? You missed Hepburn Maunder and Solomona too. Ellis is uncapped.

With the exception of Isiekwe and Maunder who were proper wildcards, how much credit does Eddie actually deserve for those selections?

TBH I’d expect most coaches to have picked the lions share of those players although I would give him credit for spotting players like Genge very early.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Scrumhead wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


Ben Spencer picked up a couple of caps in SA didn’t he? You missed Hepburn Maunder and Solomona too. Ellis is uncapped.

With the exception of Isiekwe and Maunder who were proper wildcards, how much credit does Eddie actually deserve for those selections?

TBH I’d expect most coaches to have picked the lions share of those players although I would give him credit for spotting players like Genge very early.


Equally Robson has not picked up caps under Eddie I don't believe.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I've clearly swapped the two 9s in my memory banks at some stage there then.

Scrumhead - I agree, most coaches probably would have brought through the majority of those players, but we won't know 'cause no one else was in post to make the decision. I was mainly offering the list to counter Nobleman's rather broad assertion about player development being a disaster under EJ. I'm not a big fan of his, but I don't think he's been bad in this area.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:35 pm 
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In fairness, Robson is the only truly glaring omission I can think of in the uncapped players.

I think the ones that are more frustrating are the lack of caps for players like Armand in comparison to Eddie giving more caps to the likes of Wigglesworth.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Eddie's development of young players is secondary to his selection in actual crunch test matches, where his record in the past 18 months has been awful

The example that really sticks out in my mind was the starting XV vs Ireland in the final 6N game this year. The frantic recalls for an out of form Kruis and an unfit Haskell, the last minute switch of Robshaw to 6 (after playing him at 7 for the entire tournament and insisting he was doing a great job), the demotion of Ford in place of Farrell, and of course the absolutely bonkers selection of Wigglesworth at 9

It was a pure comfort blanket selection and thank god it backfired because it would've been suicide to play that abortion of a XV ever again

For the first time in his tenure the mask slipped and, despite the narrative about Eddie being a specialist at mind games and that he has a grand plan for the World Cup, he fully seemed as though he was making it up as he went along

The South Africa tour was just as bad - the random parachuting in of Shields and Cipriani for one test each, Mike Brown on the motherf*cking wing for f*ck's sake

I still think he has absolutely no idea how he wants his side to play, the Ford-Farrell combo is still his default playmaking axis despite it being a supposed stopgap when he first took over, there's nobody else except Billy to do the role he wants at Number 8 (what on earth was he thinking putting Simmonds there), he's just dropped his only tighthead with any meaningful test experience because he's suddenly realised he carries the ball like Borthwick on tranquillisers, I could go on

it's a complete shambles


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:42 pm 
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I wonder who would meet your lofty standards?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:32 pm 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
I wonder who would meet your lofty standards?


Sigh, as I said earlier, I'm not calling for the sack

openclashXX wrote:
Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


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