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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:25 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


He was brought into the camp, but to the best of my knowledge went uncapped due to getting injured. I know this because I work, on occasion, with his girlfriend's dad [/subglobby]


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:25 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:36 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


I don't disagree, I remember having arguments with Raggs at the time that I preferred Jake White to Eddie as England coach

Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:31 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Yep, we all remember how well the Wallabies fared at the subsequent World Cup after sacking him :roll:


Many of us who criticise Eddie Jones don't think he should be fired right now, we just feel it was insane to expect him to bring England to the promised land 4 years after he starts given his entire career's record. He was basically hired off one game, when the world were swooning at Japan's victory over South Africa, not off his CV.


I don't disagree, I remember having arguments with Raggs at the time that I preferred Jake White to Eddie as England coach

Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


Agreed. As somebody said ironically if England were in this position now under another coach, a newly appointed Eddie Jones would be the perfect coach to turn a team around with a year to go :lol: .


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:26 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.





I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.




A good many of these owe their development to Fletcher and Walton who were summarily dismissed by the RFU. (Ryan/Melville)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:12 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


Ben Spencer picked up a couple of caps in SA didn’t he? You missed Hepburn Maunder and Solomona too. Ellis is uncapped.

With the exception of Isiekwe and Maunder who were proper wildcards, how much credit does Eddie actually deserve for those selections?

TBH I’d expect most coaches to have picked the lions share of those players although I would give him credit for spotting players like Genge very early.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Scrumhead wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Players coming through don't have to be young to be valid options, some are later developers or have been criminally overlooked in the past (Wilson). Also, not all of them are going to work out despite having played well enough at club level to warrant a shot (Harrison).

Off the top of my head new caps under Jones:

Armand, Collier, Cowan-Dickie (don't think he got caps under Lancaster) Curry, Daly, Ellis (I think), Ewels, Francis, Genge, Harrison, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Robson, Shields, Simmonds, Sinkler, Te'o, Williams, Wilson

Let us not forget poor Sam Jones who certainly apparently was all but a certainty to win a cap.

There've been others brought into camp who didn't get a chance at a cap, but were certainly Jones exploring options like Mike Williams and Ben Spencer.

I've doubtless missed names too.



I retain a hope that Jones can turn around the malaise of last season, but I felt I saw signs in 2017 that 2018 was coming and have yet to see much to suggest Jones can turn it around.


Ben Spencer picked up a couple of caps in SA didn’t he? You missed Hepburn Maunder and Solomona too. Ellis is uncapped.

With the exception of Isiekwe and Maunder who were proper wildcards, how much credit does Eddie actually deserve for those selections?

TBH I’d expect most coaches to have picked the lions share of those players although I would give him credit for spotting players like Genge very early.


Equally Robson has not picked up caps under Eddie I don't believe.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I've clearly swapped the two 9s in my memory banks at some stage there then.

Scrumhead - I agree, most coaches probably would have brought through the majority of those players, but we won't know 'cause no one else was in post to make the decision. I was mainly offering the list to counter Nobleman's rather broad assertion about player development being a disaster under EJ. I'm not a big fan of his, but I don't think he's been bad in this area.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:35 pm 
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In fairness, Robson is the only truly glaring omission I can think of in the uncapped players.

I think the ones that are more frustrating are the lack of caps for players like Armand in comparison to Eddie giving more caps to the likes of Wigglesworth.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Eddie's development of young players is secondary to his selection in actual crunch test matches, where his record in the past 18 months has been awful

The example that really sticks out in my mind was the starting XV vs Ireland in the final 6N game this year. The frantic recalls for an out of form Kruis and an unfit Haskell, the last minute switch of Robshaw to 6 (after playing him at 7 for the entire tournament and insisting he was doing a great job), the demotion of Ford in place of Farrell, and of course the absolutely bonkers selection of Wigglesworth at 9

It was a pure comfort blanket selection and thank god it backfired because it would've been suicide to play that abortion of a XV ever again

For the first time in his tenure the mask slipped and, despite the narrative about Eddie being a specialist at mind games and that he has a grand plan for the World Cup, he fully seemed as though he was making it up as he went along

The South Africa tour was just as bad - the random parachuting in of Shields and Cipriani for one test each, Mike Brown on the motherf*cking wing for f*ck's sake

I still think he has absolutely no idea how he wants his side to play, the Ford-Farrell combo is still his default playmaking axis despite it being a supposed stopgap when he first took over, there's nobody else except Billy to do the role he wants at Number 8 (what on earth was he thinking putting Simmonds there), he's just dropped his only tighthead with any meaningful test experience because he's suddenly realised he carries the ball like Borthwick on tranquillisers, I could go on

it's a complete shambles


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:42 pm 
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I wonder who would meet your lofty standards?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:32 pm 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
I wonder who would meet your lofty standards?


Sigh, as I said earlier, I'm not calling for the sack

openclashXX wrote:
Still think the worst thing the RFU could do right now is sack him with less than 12 months to go


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:57 am 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


That sounds like a cunning plan.


:lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:30 am 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


That sounds like a cunning plan.


A round of applause for that man.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 am 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
I wonder who would meet your lofty standards?


I'd hardly describe what he wrote is lofty standards. I's not far fetched to have a coach who come sin with a vision for the whole squad's future and a game plan which has options B and C and isn't totally reliant on one player being fit and meanwhile actually reversing the observations you publically made before to actual failure..

It's obvious Eddie came in somehow thinking (based off his comments and gameplan) that England's problems were simply to return to 2003. Only to find England didn't have that once dominate pack he imagined because everyone caught up with profesionalism, the 10 situation was two players both half of what Jonny provided and the upcoming highly rated talent wasn't even designed for what Eddie imagine.

Ironically the young forwards and backs actually are a closer fit to what Eddie decided to do with Japan, smaller mobile forwards, fast as lightening backs rather than traditional England set-piece game was or even the Saracens template which works fine at club level.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:14 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
In other stupidity news, Blackadder signs a new contract with Bath that lasts through to 2020 at which point Stuart Hooper will take over, according to Nick Mullins on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andNickMullins/stat ... 8707532801


That sounds like a cunning plan.


A round of applause for that man.


Oh come on, every second article about Bath’s DOR mentions ‘a cunning plan’ :blush:

Lovely guy, TB; always has a word with fans after a game, but it really is difficult to believe he was an international lock in the pro era (for the ABs as well); he’s shorter than me at 6’4” and can’t be any more than 16 stone.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Sarries playing glorious rugby at the moment, pleasure to watch.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Joost wrote:

Oh come on, every second article about Bath’s DOR mentions ‘a cunning plan’ :blush:



Genuinely haven't seen ythe reference made before, but then I've learnt to largely ignore the rugby press.

Glaws Quins game has exploded into life after a middling first 10. The latter are a bit fortunate to be ahead with Glaws looking the better side.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:32 pm 
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TokenSarriesFan wrote:
Sarries playing glorious rugby at the moment, pleasure to watch.


They're playing a C team, nothing about that match is particularly glorious.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Double wrote:
TokenSarriesFan wrote:
Sarries playing glorious rugby at the moment, pleasure to watch.


They're playing a C team, nothing about that match is particularly glorious.
you really must hate rugby not to enjoy first phase tries....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Another yellow for Quins. Our players are thick as pigshit.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
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This may sound ridiculous but Nick Tompkins always reminds me a bit of BOD.

Clearly not at O'Driscoll's level - few are - but makes similar runs and scores similar tries.

I'd like to see him get more game time.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:51 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
This may sound ridiculous but Nick Tompkins always reminds me a bit of BOD.

Clearly not at O'Driscoll's level - few are - but makes similar runs and scores similar tries.

I'd like to see him get more game time.


It's an enjoyable game all round imho. Goode doing his thing to some purpose and some cracking tries. Presume Sarries will win comfortably in the end, but still great entertainment.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:04 pm 
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TokenSarriesFan wrote:
Double wrote:
TokenSarriesFan wrote:
Sarries playing glorious rugby at the moment, pleasure to watch.


They're playing a C team, nothing about that match is particularly glorious.
you really must hate rugby not to enjoy first phase tries....


I don't think anyone enjoys an uncompetitive game apart from the fans of the winning team.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:07 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
This may sound ridiculous but Nick Tompkins always reminds me a bit of BOD.

Clearly not at O'Driscoll's level - few are - but makes similar runs and scores similar tries.

I'd like to see him get more game time.

He's featured alot more this season than he did last year. I get the impression Cello Bosch may be taking a backseat. Tompkins is a lovely player to watch


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Quins have now ceded 59 penalties in a little more than 4 and a half games!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:29 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Joost wrote:

Oh come on, every second article about Bath’s DOR mentions ‘a cunning plan’ :blush:



Genuinely haven't seen ythe reference made before, but then I've learnt to largely ignore the rugby press.


It’s only been made about two and a half million times since he took over at Bath but ok.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Cracking game at Bristol, 80 points scored so far and still 10 minutes to go.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Marcus Smith having a mare in the last 5, just needed not to fall over and get the pass away for a score, falls over his own legs..


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Marcus Smith ends of a great break which could've secured Quins the match winner by channelling Flood and falls over in a tangle of his own limbs, knocking the ball on.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Oof, with Smith having knocked over a pen to sneak the lead, Care runs the ball out for Quins in goal following what he thought was a Glaws knock on, but actually gifts them a 5m scrum as it came off a head. Glaws squander the opportunity and Quins take the win at Kingsholm.


Last edited by sockwithaticket on Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:55 pm 
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james garner wrote:
Marcus Smith having a mare in the last 5, just needed not to fall over and get the pass away for a score, falls over his own legs..


Does having a mare include making the break in the first place?

He slipped when changing direction. That speaks more to the quality of his studs than the quality of his play.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Finished Bristol 40-45 Saints. Defence was optional.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:59 pm 
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4071 wrote:
james garner wrote:
Marcus Smith having a mare in the last 5, just needed not to fall over and get the pass away for a score, falls over his own legs..


Does having a mare include making the break in the first place?

He slipped when changing direction. That speaks more to the quality of his studs than the quality of his play.


Fair enough, no it doesnt. But missing the first penalty in those 5 mins does. Fair play that he hit the winning points though.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:03 pm 
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IN YOUR FACE WURZELS!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Joost wrote:
Lovely guy, TB; always has a word with fans after a game, but it really is difficult to believe he was an international lock in the pro era (for the ABs as well); he’s shorter than me at 6’4” and can’t be any more than 16 stone.


6'4 16st forwards I can believe; what I can't believe is that Eddie Jones played hooker for New South Wales and played against the Lions - he's the same size as SamShark. Bloke must have been incredible at something. Neil Back was, at least, a decent size for a scrumhalf...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:30 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
This may sound ridiculous but Nick Tompkins always reminds me a bit of BOD.

Clearly not at O'Driscoll's level - few are - but makes similar runs and scores similar tries.

I'd like to see him get more game time.


I’ve been saying for a couple of seasons that he’d be well known (maybe not for England given his size) if he was a starter at another club. Was electric at U20 for England.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
SamShark wrote:
This may sound ridiculous but Nick Tompkins always reminds me a bit of BOD.

Clearly not at O'Driscoll's level - few are - but makes similar runs and scores similar tries.

I'd like to see him get more game time.


I’ve been saying for a couple of seasons that he’d be well known (maybe not for England given his size) if he was a starter at another club. Was electric at U20 for England.


Like Spencer I think he spent a season or two too long waiting patiently at Sarries. Same looks set to happen with Malins too. He's going to be, what, 22 soon? Compare the game time he's getting vs. Marcus Smith for example or even someone like Slade at an equivalent age.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Tompkins has always been a talented player (far better than Ringrose at U20 level) but his issue was always consistency - had a hint of the Twelvetrees with his error count

Sarries have managed his development quite well IMO, he could easily have left for another club where he would've been playing a lot more but not necessarily improving and subsequently dumped, but he now looks a more rounded and consistent player


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