Planet Rugby Forum

It's got to be Ruskin surely. We need some proper beef in the front row, not journeymen like Moon or Catt.

And Morgan more than warrants a place. He's arguably an upgrade on Hughes, given that the latter has never remotely hit the heights for England that Morgan hit fairly consistently in his England appearances. He's also a proper physical specimen.

MrDominator wrote:It's got to be Ruskin surely. We need some proper beef in the front row, not journeymen like Moon or Catt.

And Morgan more than warrants a place. He's arguably an upgrade on Hughes, given that the latter has never remotely hit the heights for England that Morgan hit fairly consistently in his England appearances. He's also a proper physical specimen.

Can we call two players who’ve spent their entire careers at one club ‘journeymen’?! Ruskin doesn’t look remotely ready to start an international against the Saffas or the ABs; might be decent off the bench against Japan or the Aussies.

Think it was Flatman on his podcast, but he said when he asks people who the toughest scrummagers are in the Prem, Moon's name always comes up.

Which of the candidates had the hardest upbringing (ie would probably been a gang enforcer if rugby hadn’t intervened)? That seems to be Eddie’s criteria when picking young front rowers (Tbf, it worked pretty well with Genge and Sinckler!)

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:There are EQP looseheads all over the place. Ben Harris at Wasps, Alex Waller at Saints, Harrison at Sale etc., but I'm not sure any of them are players you'd comfortably send out against Tier 1 opposition.

Since being driven into the ground by Dorian West, Waller is looking half the player he was, and he was never quite international class in the first place.

He might have been true International class, but playing 100+ uninterrupted games on the trot has probably done permanent damage

Joost wrote:

MrDominator wrote:It's got to be Ruskin surely. We need some proper beef in the front row, not journeymen like Moon or Catt.

And Morgan more than warrants a place. He's arguably an upgrade on Hughes, given that the latter has never remotely hit the heights for England that Morgan hit fairly consistently in his England appearances. He's also a proper physical specimen.

Can we call two players who’ve spent their entire careers at one club ‘journeymen’?! Ruskin doesn’t look remotely ready to start an international against the Saffas or the ABs; might be decent off the bench against Japan or the Aussies.

Journeyman doesn't (or at least, didn't used to) mean "travelled around a lot", it means they're below expert level.

JM2K6 wrote:

Joost wrote:

MrDominator wrote:It's got to be Ruskin surely. We need some proper beef in the front row, not journeymen like Moon or Catt.

And Morgan more than warrants a place. He's arguably an upgrade on Hughes, given that the latter has never remotely hit the heights for England that Morgan hit fairly consistently in his England appearances. He's also a proper physical specimen.

Can we call two players who’ve spent their entire careers at one club ‘journeymen’?! Ruskin doesn’t look remotely ready to start an international against the Saffas or the ABs; might be decent off the bench against Japan or the Aussies.

Journeyman doesn't (or at least, didn't used to) mean "travelled around a lot", it means they're below expert level.

Correct.

The Man Without Fear wrote:We might end up with a backrow with about 12 caps between them, so there's an argument that Morgan brings a level of experience even if he isn't quite the player he was, nor fits the Billyball game plan.

Without Morgan at 8 or one of Itoje or Lawes at 6, 12 caps is probably more than we can actually manage TBH.

The capped options from Eddie’s recent squads are:

Mark Wilson - 4 caps
Tom Curry - 4 caps
Brad Shields - 2 caps
Don Armand - 2 caps

None of the other players in the frame such us Rhodes, Mercer or Graham have any caps.

Unless Hepburn starts, our loosehead (potentially both starting and on the bench) will be debutants too.

fatheralice wrote:Bit pissed off about the Scots snatching Skinner back.

Fixed.

Scrumhead wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:We might end up with a backrow with about 12 caps between them, so there's an argument that Morgan brings a level of experience even if he isn't quite the player he was, nor fits the Billyball game plan.

Without Morgan at 8 or one of Itoje or Lawes at 6, 12 caps is probably more than we can actually manage TBH.

The capped options from Eddie’s recent squads are:

Mark Wilson - 4 caps
Tom Curry - 4 caps
Brad Shields - 2 caps
Don Armand - 2 caps

None of the other players in the frame such us Rhodes, Mercer or Graham have any caps.

Unless Hepburn starts, our loosehead (potentially both starting and on the bench) will be debutants too.

Cometh the hour...

fatheralice wrote:Bit pissed off about the Scots snatching Skinner. Revenge for Gary Graham I think.

Skinner is going to be bloody good. Only been a pro for 2 seasons. He has a very good skill set for a second row, and a great engine, also seems to be highly regarded by Chiefs for his leadership skills so expect him to do well internationally. I'm a big fan.

What happens when a player is called-up but not capped? Is there a cooling off period? We haven’t capped Graham so presumably he’s still available to Scotland.

No chance of Skinner not picking up Scotland caps. I’m disappointed, but I can understand why Scotland would have been an attractive option given that he’s half-Scottish and has a queue of top class locks he’s up against for England.

Margin_Walker wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:We might end up with a backrow with about 12 caps between them, so there's an argument that Morgan brings a level of experience even if he isn't quite the player he was, nor fits the Billyball game plan.

Without Morgan at 8 or one of Itoje or Lawes at 6, 12 caps is probably more than we can actually manage TBH.

The capped options from Eddie’s recent squads are:

Mark Wilson - 4 caps
Tom Curry - 4 caps
Brad Shields - 2 caps
Don Armand - 2 caps

None of the other players in the frame such us Rhodes, Mercer or Graham have any caps.

Unless Hepburn starts, our loosehead (potentially both starting and on the bench) will be debutants too.

Cometh the hour...

TBH, against SA, Haskell might be a good option. Not against NZ though.

MrDominator wrote: And Morgan more than warrants a place. He's arguably an upgrade on Hughes, given that the latter has never remotely hit the heights for England that Morgan hit fairly consistently in his England appearances.

this is 100% true. I can easily recall games for England where Morgan has been world-class - that game vs France in 2012 where he set up Foden for the second try, the Ireland game after where he was MOTM, the New Zealand game that we won, the 2014 AIs where he was Man of the Series, and so on

Hughes on the other hand has never been any more than average in any of his England appearances

Seconded

Hughes out for 6 weeks. Would have 4 been for but for the bone headed tweet he made. Sometimes wonder what these guys have got between their ears.

ovalball wrote:Hughes out for 6 weeks. Would have 4 been for but for the bone headed tweet he made. Sometimes wonder what these guys have got between their ears.

6 weeks? what a joke!.

comets wrote:

ovalball wrote:Hughes out for 6 weeks. Would have 4 been for but for the bone headed tweet he made. Sometimes wonder what these guys have got between their ears.

6 weeks? what a joke!.

Was going to get 4 weeks, the f**king idiot

Joost wrote:Which of the candidates had the hardest upbringing (ie would probably been a gang enforcer if rugby hadn’t intervened)? That seems to be Eddie’s criteria when picking young front rowers (Tbf, it worked pretty well with Genge and Sinckler!)

What side does the Yorkshire prop @ Quins play? Mind has gone blank as to his name, but EJ called him up last year and mentioned his "tough upbringing"

polyallstar wrote:

Joost wrote:Which of the candidates had the hardest upbringing (ie would probably been a gang enforcer if rugby hadn’t intervened)? That seems to be Eddie’s criteria when picking young front rowers (Tbf, it worked pretty well with Genge and Sinckler!)

What side does the Yorkshire prop @ Quins play? Mind has gone blank as to his name, but EJ called him up last year and mentioned his "tough upbringing"

Lewis Boyce. Loosehead.

4071 wrote:

polyallstar wrote:

Joost wrote:Which of the candidates had the hardest upbringing (ie would probably been a gang enforcer if rugby hadn’t intervened)? That seems to be Eddie’s criteria when picking young front rowers (Tbf, it worked pretty well with Genge and Sinckler!)

What side does the Yorkshire prop @ Quins play? Mind has gone blank as to his name, but EJ called him up last year and mentioned his "tough upbringing"

Lewis Boyce. Loosehead.

That's the one, is he in with a chance of the AI squad?

polyallstar wrote:

4071 wrote:

polyallstar wrote:

Joost wrote:Which of the candidates had the hardest upbringing (ie would probably been a gang enforcer if rugby hadn’t intervened)? That seems to be Eddie’s criteria when picking young front rowers (Tbf, it worked pretty well with Genge and Sinckler!)

What side does the Yorkshire prop @ Quins play? Mind has gone blank as to his name, but EJ called him up last year and mentioned his "tough upbringing"

Lewis Boyce. Loosehead.

That's the one, is he in with a chance of the AI squad?

He's in with a shot, but he's very much second choice at Quins. There are other looseheads out there who are starting far more regularly for their clubs - both Exeter loosies start more often than Boyce, for example.

With Nathan Catt, Rapava-Ruskin, Ross Harrison, Yann Thomas and Alex Waller all first choice for their clubs (and Bateman and Harris currently starters in the absence of Genge and Mullan) the selection of Boyce would be a bit of a punt based on promise rather than because he's international ready.

I'd go with one of Catt or Moon as the experienced veteran along with Hepburn and Rapava-Ruskin.




EDIT: We've been here before, by the way. In 2009, when Johnno was in charge. Going into those AIs fully 40% of our EPS squad was ruled out due to injury. We were down to ninth or tenth choice in the propping department, which meant that we started matches with Tim Payne and Duncan Bell. And Paul Doran-Jones on the bench.

I'll happily take most of the looseheads listed over Tim Payne.

The squad is out, no Cipriani or Cole again

Forwards (20)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) co-captain
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Michael Rhodes (Saracens)
Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors)
Brad Shields (Wasps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs (16)
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens) co-captain
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Apprentice

Unavailable for selection
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

No Cips then.

And who's Ted Hill? Sounds like a character from the Fast Show.

who's captain when both farrell and hartley are playing ?

Helpful graphic from Russ Petty on Twitter



Illustrates where the experience is and isn't

Glad Morgan's in

Oxbow wrote:No Cips then.

And who's Ted Hill? Sounds like a character from the Fast Show.

Ted 'The Finisher' Hill.


Big teenage blindside from Worcester. 4 tries in 4 games!

Oxbow wrote:No Cips then.

And who's Ted Hill? Sounds like a character from the Fast Show.

Wuss backrower, only seen highlights but he looks handy (he scored two tries at Welford Road, including the winner, think that may have been his prem debut too!)

Oxbow wrote:No Cips then.

And who's Ted Hill? Sounds like a character from the Fast Show.

Promising Worcester flanker straight out of the U20s

Not too many contentious picks among the forwards, though I'd really rather we didn't cap Rhodes and Stooke over Attwood is weird to me. Delighted to see Morgan and Wilson in. There are 7 backrowers, (8 if you count Itoje) which is too many. Drop one of them (Rhodes) and include a 3rd hooker for goodness sake (Taylor or LC-D, probably the latter).


Nathan Earle must have pictures of Eddie. Ashton and Te'O basically have 0 rugby this season. Wigglesworth ffs.


Like most of Eddie's squads you can actually make a pretty decent team out of that lot, but you can also put together some pretty uninspiring combinations.

Akkerman wrote:who's captain when both farrell and hartley are playing ?

We haven't worked that one out at Saints when Hartley and Waller are both playing. Don't expect this to be better organised at international level

Pretty happy with the forwards selection, good to see Wilson retained and Morgan potentially getting another shot - best we could have done in the circumstances, I think.

Still believe Eddie's first inclination is to play somebody like Shields or Wilson at 8, so will reserve excitement on the Morgan recall until he's actually named in a starting 23

On the other hand, v happy with the Ted Hill selection, great talent and potentially a future star at 6 for England

Realistically looking like a back row of 6 Wilson/Rhodes, 7 Curry, 8 Shields

openclashXX wrote:Still believe Eddie's first inclination is to play somebody like Shields or Wilson at 8, so will reserve excitement on the Morgan recall until he's actually named in a starting 23

On the other hand, v happy with the Ted Hill selection, great talent and potentially a future star at 6 for England

Realistically looking like a back row of 6 Wilson/Rhodes, 7 Curry, 8 Shields

I reckon it'll be 6 Rhodes, 7 Wilson, 8 Shields.

Would prefer 6 Shields, 7 Wilson, 8 Morgan assuming Eddie has to crowbar shields in there, I'd prefer it if a bloke who has yet to do anything for his new club (absence through injury, sure, but he's done nothing to warrant a spot).

Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

sockwithaticket wrote: (absence through injury, sure, but he's done nothing to warrant a spot).

I've yet to see a coach who picks players on the basis of what they've done. "Form is temporary, class is permanent" is a mantra among sports coaches from what I can tell. The only obvious exception that springs to mind is Philippe Saint-Andre...

Nobleman wrote:Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

I would really love Ford to be able to go a few tests as part of our strongest lineup without Youngs inside him serving up mediocre ball at his feet or head and Farrell outside him constantly shipping it on rather than engaging the defence. His efficacy is so hamstrung by those two and it's really annoying that the answer always seems to be drop Ford.

I know the defence was dire on the Argentina tour due to the patchwork, inexperienced nature of the side, but Ford with a different scrum half and an inside centre who would actually take the ball to the line before getting rid or carrying into the opposition looked like the player who broke into the England team and the attack was great.

sockwithaticket wrote:

Nobleman wrote:Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

I would really love Ford to be able to go a few tests as part of our strongest lineup without Youngs inside him serving up mediocre ball at his feet or head and Farrell outside him constantly shipping it on rather than engaging the defence. His efficacy is so hamstrung by those two and it's really annoying that the answer always seems to be drop Ford.

I know the defence was dire on the Argentina tour due to the patchwork, inexperienced nature of the side, but Ford with a different scrum half and an inside centre who would actually take the ball to the line before getting rid or carrying into the opposition looked like the player who broke into the England team and the attack was great.

The issue is that without Youngs directing the forwards effectively, they haven't been providing the ball for the 9 to deliver anyway. (see last years 6N)

am very happy Morgan is back at 8, lovely player. what was that game where he made a 70m run from a kick off ? v Aus autumn 2014 ?

blindcider wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

Nobleman wrote:Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

I would really love Ford to be able to go a few tests as part of our strongest lineup without Youngs inside him serving up mediocre ball at his feet or head and Farrell outside him constantly shipping it on rather than engaging the defence. His efficacy is so hamstrung by those two and it's really annoying that the answer always seems to be drop Ford.

I know the defence was dire on the Argentina tour due to the patchwork, inexperienced nature of the side, but Ford with a different scrum half and an inside centre who would actually take the ball to the line before getting rid or carrying into the opposition looked like the player who broke into the England team and the attack was great.

The issue is that without Youngs directing the forwards effectively, they haven't been providing the ball for the 9 to deliver anyway. (see last years 6N)

I'm not sure how much of last year's underwhelming forwards effort can really be laid at Youngs' absence. There was other stuff going on like the merry go round in the backrow as various people broke and came back half fit, Lions players looked flogged and a lack of effective carriers generally plus a mediocre scrum.

sockwithaticket wrote:

Oxbow wrote:No Cips then.

And who's Ted Hill? Sounds like a character from the Fast Show.

Promising Worcester flanker straight out of the U20s

Not too many contentious picks among the forwards, though I'd really rather we didn't cap Rhodes and Stooke over Attwood is weird to me. Delighted to see Morgan and Wilson in. There are 7 backrowers, (8 if you count Itoje) which is too many. Drop one of them (Rhodes) and include a 3rd hooker for goodness sake (Taylor or LC-D, probably the latter).


Nathan Earle must have pictures of Eddie. Ashton and Te'O basically have 0 rugby this season. Wigglesworth ffs.


Like most of Eddie's squads you can actually make a pretty decent team out of that lot, but you can also put together some pretty uninspiring combinations.

Er, Nathan Earle has been first choice for Quins this season and has scored four tries. Whether he is Test class or not is one thing, but he's a form winger even if he is there to hold tackle bags.

Standard Eddie squad to be fair, must be the end of the road for Hask, Cole and Cips. Wonder what would happen if one of the big French clubs came in for Cips right now??

For SA I'd like to see:

Hepburn
Hartley
Williams
Kruis
Itoje
Shields
Curry
Morgan
Youngs
Farrell
Nowell
Teo
Slade
May
Daley

Moon, George, Sinks, Lawes, Wilson, Care, Ford, Brown