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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Think you can play a Curry or Mercer in the back row against top tier opposition at this point in their development, not combined.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Would prefer Morgan at 8, but can think of worse back rows you can make from that squad.

Would rather Mercer starting there than Shields, Wilson etc. At least he would be a proactive pick and offers a threat that's a bit different, rather than just sticking a big combative bloke at 8.


Last edited by Margin_Walker on Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:52 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative


You must have missed the 3 minutes off the bench that Jack Maunder got in 2017, or the 12 minutes Ben Spencer got off the bench this year


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:55 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative


You must have missed the 3 minutes off the bench that Jack Maunder got in 2017, or the 12 minutes Ben Spencer got off the bench this year


I'll consider myself suitably corrected and chastised.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:05 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative


You must have missed the 3 minutes off the bench that Jack Maunder got in 2017, or the 12 minutes Ben Spencer got off the bench this year


I'll consider myself suitably corrected and chastised.


Didn't Townsend and Robson both get a little bit of time in BaaBaas games? For shame, Ovalball. Clearly Eddie's been going to great lengths to ensure our Scrum Half stocks are healthy.

As an aside we do have a bit of a problem with some positions at league level either being dominated by Foreign players or EQPs who are clearly/probably not international class, but are solid club men past whom potentially better younger players can't seem to get. No. 8, 9 and 15 definitely suffer from that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:05 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative


You must have missed the 3 minutes off the bench that Jack Maunder got in 2017, or the 12 minutes Ben Spencer got off the bench this year


I'll consider myself suitably corrected and chastised.



They are following the Joe Simpson stint of 10(?) mins against Romania in the RWC. Mind you Martyn Wood has 2 caps for 3 minutes total time.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:19 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
He's in better form than when he was initially picked (i.e. has some), but not necessarily in better form than other EQP wingers who are also first choice and scoring tries freely for their clubs (Sharples, Bassett off the top of my head) and who have been that for longer than Earle is currently first choice and scoring tries for Quins.

I don't consider that me saying I don't like him nor particularly shifting the goal posts - it all goes back to I don't understand why him and not someone else. The only thing that marks him out is that he's been in the squad before and he'd done nothing to earn those squad places ahead of someone like Woodburn who was first choice at his club and had a fine scoring rate (if that's our metric) while Earle was occasionally riding the pine for Sarries.

Ultimately he probably is a tackle bag holder, so it doesn't really matter. It's just one of those bits of Eddie Jones selection logic that I just can't get.


Sharples is pretty crap without the ball. Bassett is decent but has his own issues in defence. Earle is a good all rounder from what I've seen and Eddie knows a bit more about him.

Woodburn I like but can't stay fit, Lewington is a live option who was a terrible defender for a while, etc. Guys like Earle and Cokanasiga are punts by Eddie, nothing to get too wound up by. Last I checked, both those two had surprisingly similar stats with Earle slightly edging it on metres made per match.

It was an odd call at the start but we've seen since that actually, he's worth a look. Eddie should get some praise for that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Nobleman wrote:
Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

He'll be lucky to win 1 with the injury rate, he is likely toast.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
Nobleman wrote:
Very disappointing that Cipriani isn't in the squad but it was always going to be difficult with Mitchell as no.2. The consensus from the journos on the podcasts is that Farell will be the starting 10 with a ball carrier at 12.

I don't understand the co-captain arrangement although I suppose it means that Hartley can start from the bench.

EJ needs to win 3 out of 4 or he's toast.

He'll be lucky to win 1 with the injury rate, he is likely toast.


He normally knackers a few in pre-match training - so it'll be worse by the time the series starts - and then there'll be a handful lost during the series. It'll be last man standing by the end.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:40 pm 
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JMK - iirc Woodburn was pretty injury free the last couple of seasons with Exe, though he's obviously not available now. Given that we still have no proper alternative to Brown at fullback since neither Watson nor Daly have convinced there and the former is long term injured, would it not have been more useful to bring in an option there like Woodward who went with the squad to SA? Unless they're actually both going to play I don't really see the point in Earle AND Cokanasiga, given that May, Watson, Daly and Nowell are (have been?) higher in the pecking order. Of course Eddie may still be convinced that Daly is our no.2 15 and have mentally binned Woodward from whatever he saw in camp.

Rugby2023 - we'd have been struggling for wins without the injuries. Australia may still be crap enough for us to end on a high and go 2/4


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:52 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Rugby2023 - we'd have been struggling for wins without the injuries. Australia may still be crap enough for us to end on a high and go 2/4


Australia are wearing their fancy indigenous strip against us - we haven't got a chance

1/4 this Autumn, John Mitchell to take over by the Six Nations


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:58 pm 
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He has added a fullback option. It's Chris Ashton. Given he sees Daly as a live option, that's three players.

It's a huge squad, there's room for punts.

Nowell continues to have fitness problems, Watson is out for ages - no harm in taking a look at some other players he thinks might be a useful option in future. Just being part of that squad is good development for players.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Christ, I'd forgotten about Ashton as a fullback...

I guess I'm just generally ill at ease with how unsettled the squad seems to be with, what, 12 tests 'til the World Cup. Not that some of it can be helped (injuries), but the supporting cast in these squads seems to be a relative revolving door (which I realise is an argument for Earle's retention...).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:25 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Rugby2023 - we'd have been struggling for wins without the injuries. Australia may still be crap enough for us to end on a high and go 2/4


Australia are wearing their fancy indigenous strip against us - we haven't got a chance

1/4 this Autumn, John Mitchell to take over by the Six Nations



We should really beat a weakened SA at home - they're down to their 5th choice scrum half.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:34 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Christ, I'd forgotten about Ashton as a fullback...

I guess I'm just generally ill at ease with how unsettled the squad seems to be with, what, 12 tests 'til the World Cup. Not that some of it can be helped (injuries), but the supporting cast in these squads seems to be a relative revolving door (which I realise is an argument for Earle's retention...).


Yeah, that's fair. I guess that's the result of the losing run and Eddie being a bit one dimensional and seemingly unable to work with a different kind of player than the ones he prefers.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:20 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Rugby2023 - we'd have been struggling for wins without the injuries. Australia may still be crap enough for us to end on a high and go 2/4

Quite, but the injuries rather seal the fate so to speak. Still, fingers crossed for some new players to stand up (or failing that, some miracles).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:27 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Christ, I'd forgotten about Ashton as a fullback...

I guess I'm just generally ill at ease with how unsettled the squad seems to be with, what, 12 tests 'til the World Cup. Not that some of it can be helped (injuries), but the supporting cast in these squads seems to be a relative revolving door (which I realise is an argument for Earle's retention...).


Yeah, that's fair. I guess that's the result of the losing run and Eddie being a bit one dimensional and seemingly unable to work with a different kind of player than the ones he prefers.


Which seems strange, considering his success with Japan came with knowing they had to play a different sort of game. But I wonder if he's been fixated on this English strengths he has spoken about since he took over?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:33 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative



It's not just SH Eddie has neglected. It's certainly true 9 is one of our weakest positions but Eddie has not only not developed the 3 players per position, he's shifted players around (Robshaw to 7, Daly to 15, Brown to Wing, Itoje to 6) rather than try out new players in their specialist positions. All the observations he stated back when he was sharking for the job and in his early days he has ignored. It's quite ridiculous in many ways how pig headed he has been to even ignore his own advice.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:38 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
He has added a fullback option. It's Chris Ashton. Given he sees Daly as a live option, that's three players.

It's a huge squad, there's room for punts.

Nowell continues to have fitness problems, Watson is out for ages - no harm in taking a look at some other players he thinks might be a useful option in future. Just being part of that squad is good development for players.


Considering how poor our Scrummies are, you'd think a punt there would serve us better.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Rugby2023 - we'd have been struggling for wins without the injuries. Australia may still be crap enough for us to end on a high and go 2/4

Quite, but the injuries rather seal the fate so to speak. Still, fingers crossed for some new players to stand up (or failing that, some miracles).


I'd rather fingers weren't crossed, the way we're going it will result in dislocations.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Rumour that Wade is switching to NFL... :?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:03 pm 
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There's some rumours on Twitter that Wade has left Wasps for the NFL! Anyone heard anything?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:04 pm 
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maverickmak wrote:
Rumour that Wade is switching to NFL... :?


Beat me to it!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:54 pm 
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I heard from inside Wasps but thought may still be a rumour which snowballed but Mail have it now:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... y-NFL.html

Apparently Dallas Cowboys


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Makes sense. He won't have to try and defend in the NFL.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Better re-discover his running game, then. Been underwhelming this season.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 pm 
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that's bonkers - plus I hadn't realised he's 27?! by New Zealand standards that's basically pensionable age for a winger

shame, never has a Lions call up done so much damage to a single player's career


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:29 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Better re-discover his running game, then. Been underwhelming this season.


I think a lot is down to this. From what I hear he just became totally disenfranchised with rugby after realising nothing he could do would get him higher honours and he then impressed NFL at some footwork camp. Who said he was most gifted athlete they've seen. I'd second that. Waste of most gifted attacking English back of his generation. I don't buy the defence argument. Stats don't agree and you just find a way to incorporate that level of ability.


Last edited by odave on Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:29 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
that's bonkers - plus I hadn't realised he's 27?! by New Zealand standards that's basically pensionable age for a winger

shame, never has a Lions call up done so much damage to a single player's career


Yep. Basically setup 3 England tries in arg. Then flown for 24 hours, thrown on the pitch with a mess of players and unsurprisingly didn't look good.

His best attribute for me was his passing. Couple of seasons ago he was up with the top tens for try assists.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:34 pm 
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At 27 he's surely a bit too old to have a shot at success, but who knows.

Can imagine things will have got pretty stale for him though, so obviously fancies the challenge/experience


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:45 pm 
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odave wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Better re-discover his running game, then. Been underwhelming this season.


I think a lot is down to this. From what I hear he just became totally disenfranchised with rugby after realising nothing he could do would get him higher honours and he then impressed NFL at some footwork camp. Who said he was most gifted athlete they've seen. I'd second that. Waste of most gifted attacking English back of his generation. I don't buy the defence argument. Stats don't agree and you just find a way to incorporate that level of ability.


Have said the latter several times. Scored a boatload of tries out of nothing, but would have loved to see Wasps design more for him than just on the end of a series of passes. Almost never on the left. Don’t remember him floating or popping up out of nowhere (deep line breaks, yes) like Ashton did.

Bonkers that England didn’t try to incorporate him more.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:41 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
He has added a fullback option. It's Chris Ashton. Given he sees Daly as a live option, that's three players.

It's a huge squad, there's room for punts.

I note 'plum' is no longer the bored's replacement for see you next tuesday.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:08 am 
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Wade did float about. It's just 99% of the time the defence knew it and had 3 men close to each other, so the better option was always to skip him.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:53 am 
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odave wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Better re-discover his running game, then. Been underwhelming this season.


I think a lot is down to this. From what I hear he just became totally disenfranchised with rugby after realising nothing he could do would get him higher honours and he then impressed NFL at some footwork camp. Who said he was most gifted athlete they've seen. I'd second that. Waste of most gifted attacking English back of his generation. I don't buy the defence argument. Stats don't agree and you just find a way to incorporate that level of ability.


He was a garbage defender. Awful decision maker, and frequently got bounced by every attacker who ran at him. The occasional good technical tackle can't disguise the fact that he was a horror show in defence and never improved.

Might still have been worth a shot but it would be a huge risk given that your weaknesses get magnified at international level and the defences are tougher.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:52 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Youngs is bad enough but how the F&*k are we still saddled with Care and Wiggy despite years of them proving they aren't anywhere near good enough. Does Eddie think the S/H just isn't a very important position - he's made f/all attempt to develop a decent alternative



It's not just SH Eddie has neglected. It's certainly true 9 is one of our weakest positions but Eddie has not only not developed the 3 players per position, he's shifted players around (Robshaw to 7, Daly to 15, Brown to Wing, Itoje to 6) rather than try out new players in their specialist positions. All the observations he stated back when he was sharking for the job and in his early days he has ignored. It's quite ridiculous in many ways how pig headed he has been to even ignore his own advice.


The lack of depth at fullback makes the decision of Haley and Addison to move to Ireland all the more galling. Haley should have been in the mix as a long term replacement for Brown at FB and Addison would have been a good bench option for an injury crisis period like this. As it is EJ's decisions to shift players out of their club positions to FB has seen two good young players bugger off and England's FB stocks look even more bare.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:02 am 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
At 27 he's surely a bit too old to have a shot at success, but who knows.

Can imagine things will have got pretty stale for him though, so obviously fancies the challenge/experience


Reckon he probably won’t get any further than the practice squad or playing a few downs in pre-season. But tbf, that alone will probably earn him more than his pay at Wasps!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:07 am 
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Joost wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
At 27 he's surely a bit too old to have a shot at success, but who knows.

Can imagine things will have got pretty stale for him though, so obviously fancies the challenge/experience


Reckon he probably won’t get any further than the practice squad or playing a few downs in pre-season. But tbf, that alone will probably earn him more than his pay at Wasps!


Nah, as on the other thread he'll need to make the roster to make proper money. That's a huge ask. Will surely be taking a big pay cut on the practice squad initially


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:22 am 
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JM2K6 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Christ, I'd forgotten about Ashton as a fullback...

I guess I'm just generally ill at ease with how unsettled the squad seems to be with, what, 12 tests 'til the World Cup. Not that some of it can be helped (injuries), but the supporting cast in these squads seems to be a relative revolving door (which I realise is an argument for Earle's retention...).


Yeah, that's fair. I guess that's the result of the losing run and Eddie being a bit one dimensional and seemingly unable to work with a different kind of player than the ones he prefers.


But surely Eddie won't play Ashton when his last game was in August?!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:27 am 
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Fekitoa to replace Wade at Wasps apparently but from next season..lots of players leaving that sunken ship known as Toulon now..


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