Planet Rugby Forum

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

happyhooker wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

Handling's really impressive.

You do wonder a bit, though, how they would've fared against modern defences.

I've said it before on here, but it's always lewsey who stands out as the overlooked player in that backline

It was a sign of England's intent in those days that they picked a full-back who couldn't kick for toffee.

Watching the clip above, what we would do for a back like Healey nowadays. And he was just a bit-part player in that backline.

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

Not strictly true - he had a bit of an Indian Summer with Sale at the end of his career. He was absolute dynamite in his pomp.

The game really was at its best from 2001 to 2007, I don't think we'll get to see rugby like that again.

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

Handling's really impressive.

You do wonder a bit, though, how they would've fared against modern defences.

We always get this question, but historically when the game has moved on players who are great have never really been exposed, especially when you see player crossovers. Richie McCaw started his test career in that era and never really faltered. Same for the lieks of O'Driscoll. Simon Shaw started way back in the amateur era had one of his greatest games ever in the 2009 Lions series and only retired a few years ago. Much of that England team were from Wasps and developed the modern rush defense under Shaun Edwards who coaches Wales today. Dallaglio, Lewsey, Worsey and others played with Cipriani at the end of their careers and the early days of his They where still better tacklers then he ever is and I'd take any centre and 10 in that 2003 squad in defense over Farrell and Ford in any defensive system.

Basically the basic skills that make up good players never change. The systems do, but players to can exploit a half gap to make a break are no different now to then. Players who where monsters in defense are no different now to then.

ovalball wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

Handling's really impressive.

You do wonder a bit, though, how they would've fared against modern defences.

Those were, most definitely, THE DAYs.

The explosive bursts of pace and great support running - fantastic. What the video misses, though, is how the pack regularly sucked in defenders, and got front foot ball, to give the backs a chance to use their skills against a thinner line.

Wonderful stuff.

It was quite a pack. Physical, clever, great scrum, lineout and speedy in loose play. That backrow's excellence and balance may never be matched again in England.

Brazil wrote:

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

Not strictly true - he had a bit of an Indian Summer with Sale at the end of his career. He was absolute dynamite in his pomp.

The game really was at its best from 2001 to 2007, I don't think we'll get to see rugby like that again.

I much agree. 2008 was when the IRB introduced the ELVs and bastardised the game to some extend even if we stepped back from those.

Rumours on Twitter that the starting back row vs Boks is Rhodes, Curry, Morgan

Would be v happy with that if true

eldanielfire wrote:

Brazil wrote:

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

Not strictly true - he had a bit of an Indian Summer with Sale at the end of his career. He was absolute dynamite in his pomp.

The game really was at its best from 2001 to 2007, I don't think we'll get to see rugby like that again.

I much agree. 2008 was when the IRB introduced the ELVs and bastardised the game to some extend even if we stepped back from those.

Thirded.

When I say I wonder how they'd get on against modern defences it is primarily because the mess the breakdown currently is, widespread use of blitz defences and general improvement of the Celts. They'd still be among the best players in the world, but would they seem so dominant? Would they get out of so many tackles? Would the time and space be there to throw the loose balls that clip featured fairly strongly? It's not to disparage, but the game in those clips is very different to what we seem to have now, so the mind wanders and wonders.

openclashXX wrote:Rumours on Twitter that the starting back row vs Boks is Rhodes, Curry, Morgan

Would be v happy with that if true

Same here.

eldanielfire wrote:

openclashXX wrote:Rumours on Twitter that the starting back row vs Boks is Rhodes, Curry, Morgan

Would be v happy with that if true

Same here.

Other than Rhodes

Rhodes is a worse player than Wilson IMO but fits the balance of that back row better than Wilson

openclashXX wrote:Rhodes is a worse player than Wilson IMO but fits the balance of that back row better than Wilson

And is poachtastic. That's my issue with his selection.

Rhodes. Jesus wept.

sockwithaticket wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Brazil wrote:

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

Not strictly true - he had a bit of an Indian Summer with Sale at the end of his career. He was absolute dynamite in his pomp.

The game really was at its best from 2001 to 2007, I don't think we'll get to see rugby like that again.

I much agree. 2008 was when the IRB introduced the ELVs and bastardised the game to some extend even if we stepped back from those.

Thirded.

When I say I wonder how they'd get on against modern defences it is primarily because the mess the breakdown currently is, widespread use of blitz defences and general improvement of the Celts. They'd still be among the best players in the world, but would they seem so dominant? Would they get out of so many tackles? Would the time and space be there to throw the loose balls that clip featured fairly strongly? It's not to disparage, but the game in those clips is very different to what we seem to have now, so the mind wanders and wonders.

England recently went on a 17 game winning run and I struggle to make a case for more than one of the current side getting in that one (Itoje over Kay). I reckon they’d be alright.

sockwithaticket wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Brazil wrote:

Oxbow wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:Jeez I'd forgotten how good Ben Cohen was, what happened to him? He was bang average for a long time.

He was one of the best wingers in the world during that period, but his form suddenly dropped off a cliff and didn't stop when it hit the ground, sadly.

Not strictly true - he had a bit of an Indian Summer with Sale at the end of his career. He was absolute dynamite in his pomp.

The game really was at its best from 2001 to 2007, I don't think we'll get to see rugby like that again.

I much agree. 2008 was when the IRB introduced the ELVs and bastardised the game to some extend even if we stepped back from those.

Thirded.

When I say I wonder how they'd get on against modern defences it is primarily because the mess the breakdown currently is, widespread use of blitz defences and general improvement of the Celts. They'd still be among the best players in the world, but would they seem so dominant? Would they get out of so many tackles? Would the time and space be there to throw the loose balls that clip featured fairly strongly? It's not to disparage, but the game in those clips is very different to what we seem to have now, so the mind wanders and wonders.

Makes but I think they will, as stated the modern defense was in place back then for many players. What happens today is players are more conservative, no coincidence New Zealand still in many players play a looser game in attack, South Africa recently have and both sides have scored tries from attacks with some loose balls. Beauden Barrett often throws loose passes, I often see players having to stop of check back to still collect his balls or get low to the floor. Look at Scotland this past year. Playing fast and loose is a good way of breaking down the modern defense.

openclashXX wrote:Rhodes is a worse player than Wilson IMO but fits the balance of that back row better than Wilson

In the sense of providing a third lineout option? Morgan is a big lad, but he was used as a lineout receiver at one point wasn't he?

I'd much rather see Wilson personally, but I'll not deny that there is a need to strike a balance.

Glos use Morgan in the lineout (not much, but they do use him)

Rhodes is in a different league to Morgan as a lineout jumper, you can't really compare them

Rhodes is 6ft 5, long arms, quick off the ground, almost purpose built as a lineout jumper. Short of playing Itoje or Lawes in the back row, there's not much better options we have for shoring up the lineout

I've not been paying much attention in the last week, but is Lawes fit?

happyhooker wrote:I've not been paying much attention in the last week, but is Lawes fit?

Struggling with back spasms, apparently. I'm guessing he'll miss the first test.

Anyone willing to predict Eddie's 23 for the South Africa game? Don't think he'll be too radical:

Moon, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Rhodes, Curry, Morgan
Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Brown, Daly

Subs: Hepburn, George, Williams, Shields, Mercer, Care, Tuilagi, Nowell

When I see brown's name on the wing nowadays I genuinely despair

I still find the notion of Ben Moon starting a test for England hard to wrap my head around

Hells Bells wrote:Anyone willing to predict Eddie's 23 for the South Africa game? Don't think he'll be too radical:

Moon, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Rhodes, Curry, Morgan
Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Brown, Daly

Subs: Hepburn, George, Williams, Shields, Mercer, Care, Tuilagi, Nowell

Christ I hope not! Brown on the wing, Shields as a replacement lock... It's like a nightmare

openclashXX wrote:I still find the notion of Ben Moon starting a test for England hard to wrap my head around

Tim



Payne

Duncan




Bell

If you want head scratching, just look at the pack that started in the South Africa tour in 2007:

Nick Easter/Andy Hazell/Chris Jones/Alex Brown/Dean Schofield/Stuart Turner/Mark Regan/Kevin Yates

With this lots as subs:
Matt Cairns/Darren Crompton/Roy Winters/Pat Sanderson

I mean, what the hell is that

geordie_6 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:Rhodes is a worse player than Wilson IMO but fits the balance of that back row better than Wilson

In the sense of providing a third lineout option? Morgan is a big lad, but he was used as a lineout receiver at one point wasn't he?

I'd much rather see Wilson personally, but I'll not deny that there is a need to strike a balance.

Yep. This is exactly my thinking. At least a specialist 6, 7 and 8 ...

I was dreading 6. Itoje 7. Rhodes 8. Shields

Hells Bells wrote:If you want head scratching, just look at the pack that started in the South Africa tour in 2007:

Nick Easter/Andy Hazell/Chris Jones/Alex Brown/Dean Schofield/Stuart Turner/Mark Regan/Kevin Yates

With this lots as subs:
Matt Cairns/Darren Crompton/Roy Winters/Pat Sanderson

I mean, what the hell is that

That was 'we're not risking the bulk of our World Cup squad getting injured a couple of months before the tournament, so who are some of our most experienced premiership forwards who might not completely embarrass themselves or the white jersey?'

IIRC only Easter and Reagan actually played in the tournament/were ever selected again.

eople joke about C teams every now and then, but that was, charitably, a few letters further down the alphabet.


Chalk me up as another hoping Wilson would get the nod ahead of Rhodes, but at least that looks like a back row with a semblance of balance and there's no lock at 6.

Hells Bells wrote:If you want head scratching, just look at the pack that started in the South Africa tour in 2007:

Nick Easter/Andy Hazell/Chris Jones/Alex Brown/Dean Schofield/Stuart Turner/Mark Regan/Kevin Yates

With this lots as subs:
Matt Cairns/Darren Crompton/Roy Winters/Pat Sanderson

I mean, what the hell is that

Jesus, that makes my eyes bleed. Genuinely couldn't tell you who Darren Crompton and Roy Winters are.

Keith wrote:Duncan




Bell

It certainly has the whiff of both about it

Moon is fine, but Exeter are hardly a gun scrummaging unit (at least based on their two European games) and Moon hasn't got a lot else going for him outside the scrum as Hepburn does

True, but I’d argue Itoje and Kruis are a strong engine room to support that front row.

I’m backing Moon to be a surprise hit.

Keith wrote:

happyhooker wrote:I've not been paying much attention in the last week, but is Lawes fit?

Struggling with back spasms, apparently. I'm guessing he'll miss the first test.

He was on my flight back from Faro on Saturday. I know it's only a 2 hour flight, but you would have thought that if he's suffering from back spasms then an easyjet flight without extra legroom is not the best idea?

Davestar wrote:

Keith wrote:

happyhooker wrote:I've not been paying much attention in the last week, but is Lawes fit?

Struggling with back spasms, apparently. I'm guessing he'll miss the first test.

He was on my flight back from Faro on Saturday. I know it's only a 2 hour flight, but you would have thought that if he's suffering from back spasms then an easyjet flight without extra legroom is not the best idea?

Especially given the story that his back spasms were caused by sleeping in a bed that was too small for him.

Well the RFU are trying to pinch a few penny's these days following the stand over-spend and I suppose there're only so many staff they can allow Dean Ryan to run out of town.

Scrumhead wrote:True, but I’d argue Itoje and Kruis are a strong engine room to support that front row.

I’m backing Moon to be a surprise hit.

Let's hope. He's 29, been around for a decade, grew up in the Championship and is basically being picked for his scrummaging

Oxbow wrote:

Hells Bells wrote:If you want head scratching, just look at the pack that started in the South Africa tour in 2007:

Nick Easter/Andy Hazell/Chris Jones/Alex Brown/Dean Schofield/Stuart Turner/Mark Regan/Kevin Yates

With this lots as subs:
Matt Cairns/Darren Crompton/Roy Winters/Pat Sanderson

I mean, what the hell is that

Jesus, that makes my eyes bleed. Genuinely couldn't tell you who Darren Crompton and Roy Winters are.

Coronation Street characters, no?

Rugby2023 wrote:

Oxbow wrote:

Hells Bells wrote:If you want head scratching, just look at the pack that started in the South Africa tour in 2007:

Nick Easter/Andy Hazell/Chris Jones/Alex Brown/Dean Schofield/Stuart Turner/Mark Regan/Kevin Yates

With this lots as subs:
Matt Cairns/Darren Crompton/Roy Winters/Pat Sanderson

I mean, what the hell is that

Jesus, that makes my eyes bleed. Genuinely couldn't tell you who Darren Crompton and Roy Winters are.

Coronation Street characters, no?

Crompton was a prop for Bristol. Winters was a stout yeoman lock for Quins at the time of selection (was there a good few years).

Both stalwarts of club rugby.