Planet Rugby Forum

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

fatcat wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Nobleman wrote:Poster doesn't read the article and posts what he wants to believe shocker.

The article stated that George rates far better in per 80 minute comparisons over the 6N, where he was a sub for 4 games...

And that's exactly true. Front row subs always have far higher impact per minute than starters. Prop starters are the lowest of any position, prop replacements often outwork even backrow who started, in a per minute comparison. Not quite the same for hookers, but George's workrate was no better than Hartleys when starting a game. Just different work.

George did more than Hartley against Japan. Shock. A game where he played 63 minutes, and got a yellow card. Hartley played 17 minutes, in which there were 4 scores (normally each eating 1-2 minutes of actual playing time).

As for the ABs game, it's clearly obvious that George was throwing far too low from the pictures.

It's totally delusional to state that George's stats are better than Hartley's because he only comes on for the last 20 minutes. George generally replaces Hartley on 45-50 minutes and as the article states:

"When George has started for England since the beginning of last season, he has played an average of 65.8 minutes, whereas Hartley lasts 50.3 on average when he wears No 2.
Against Japan, George carried the ball more than any England forward apart from Maro Itoje and Courtney Lawes, he had the fourth highest tackle count (15) and was one of only three starters not to miss one. Hartley, conversely, played 20 minutes, touching the ball once (for a rolling maul try) and missing a tackle in the build-up to Japan’s second try.
"
If it's so easy for hookers to have good stats in the final 20 minutes, then how come Hartley's stats were so poor against Japan? Maybe the reason that George's overall stats are so much better than Hartley's, is that George is the better player. This probably doesn't suit your narrative.

How do their lineout stats compare for England, longer term and say the last 12 months?

Something important that your article missed, no?

"This is a disservice to George. Two aberrations taken from context cannot undo three years’ worth of excellence, especially not when those errors are a yellow card against Japan, which was the culmination of offences across the team, and a series of stolen lineouts against the world’s best lock, Brodie Retallick, with some dodgy refereeing and an injured caller. And as Jones said, with the lineout “it’s not the thrower, it’s not the jumper, it’s not the support player, it’s the cohesion”."

So no stats then!

Bit nervous about Manu off the bench. The last time that happened (v Wales I think) our defensive line was all over the place and the Welsh ran straight through us a few times. That was the time they scored three tries in the last quarter to almost nick the game.

eldanielfire wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

MrDominator wrote:I'm amazed Hartley is on the bench. George is a good player and a nice lad, but he doesn't have the edge or natural instinct to dominate required of a hooker at Test match level. You need a killer in that position, and he's far from a killer. Perhaps Eddie is giving him a final chance to nail a starting position.

Slade, on the other hand, is simply a magnificent specimen. How can any red-blooded Englishman possibly want to see him jettisoned? The boy puts the is into Adonis; a veritable walking viagra. Every backline needs a chap you'd happily have a tumble in the hay with, and he's definitely ours.

fudge off to grindr and stop polluting the rugby chat with your pointless schtick.

I actually find it entertaining.

Elsewhere, I don't mind it too much, but I like that the national thread actually has a pretty decent standard of chat.

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

In truth neither hooker has come close to nailing down the shirt, mind in truth who has nailed a specific shirt down? Mako and Maro probably,and maybe May

Nobleman wrote:

fatcat wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Nobleman wrote:Poster doesn't read the article and posts what he wants to believe shocker.

The article stated that George rates far better in per 80 minute comparisons over the 6N, where he was a sub for 4 games...

And that's exactly true. Front row subs always have far higher impact per minute than starters. Prop starters are the lowest of any position, prop replacements often outwork even backrow who started, in a per minute comparison. Not quite the same for hookers, but George's workrate was no better than Hartleys when starting a game. Just different work.

George did more than Hartley against Japan. Shock. A game where he played 63 minutes, and got a yellow card. Hartley played 17 minutes, in which there were 4 scores (normally each eating 1-2 minutes of actual playing time).

As for the ABs game, it's clearly obvious that George was throwing far too low from the pictures.

It's totally delusional to state that George's stats are better than Hartley's because he only comes on for the last 20 minutes. George generally replaces Hartley on 45-50 minutes and as the article states:

"When George has started for England since the beginning of last season, he has played an average of 65.8 minutes, whereas Hartley lasts 50.3 on average when he wears No 2.
Against Japan, George carried the ball more than any England forward apart from Maro Itoje and Courtney Lawes, he had the fourth highest tackle count (15) and was one of only three starters not to miss one. Hartley, conversely, played 20 minutes, touching the ball once (for a rolling maul try) and missing a tackle in the build-up to Japan’s second try.
"
If it's so easy for hookers to have good stats in the final 20 minutes, then how come Hartley's stats were so poor against Japan? Maybe the reason that George's overall stats are so much better than Hartley's, is that George is the better player. This probably doesn't suit your narrative.

How do their lineout stats compare for England, longer term and say the last 12 months?

Something important that your article missed, no?

"This is a disservice to George. Two aberrations taken from context cannot undo three years’ worth of excellence, especially not when those errors are a yellow card against Japan, which was the culmination of offences across the team, and a series of stolen lineouts against the world’s best lock, Brodie Retallick, with some dodgy refereeing and an injured caller. And as Jones said, with the lineout “it’s not the thrower, it’s not the jumper, it’s not the support player, it’s the cohesion”."

"If I anticipate people pointing out the flaws in my argument, I can make it look like they aren't flaws at all"

piquant wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

In truth neither hooker has come close to nailing down the shirt, mind in truth who has nailed a specific shirt down? Mako and Maro probably,and maybe May

Maro's only really nailed down a shirt by default we very rarely have more then 2 of our best 4 locks fit at the same time as we have a full complement of backrowers. All fit and firing I'd go for the Launch/Lawes combo.

Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Eddie mind games. Until George is reliable at the primary parts of his job Hartley is no1.

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Sounds like Jones agrees

DragsterDriver wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Eddie mind games. Until George is reliable at the primary parts of his job Hartley is no1.

Except he's been dropped so is no longer the no.1. It's the first time that EJ has picked George ahead of Hartley versus a tier 1 nation.

Owen Slot reckons that although this is the beginning of the end for Hartley, he will still go to Japan.

Nobleman wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Eddie mind games. Until George is reliable at the primary parts of his job Hartley is no1.

Except he's been dropped so is no longer the no.1. It's the first time that EJ has picked George ahead of Hartley versus a tier 1 nation.

Owen Slot reckons that although this is the beginning of the end for Hartley, he will still go to Japan.

Care has been dropped, George is getting a chance to start.

DragsterDriver wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

Nobleman wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:In any case, I don't think many would argue that Hartley was a more energetic, all-court player than George. I called repeatedly for George to start when Hartley was doing nothing and George had the best darts in the prem. But regardless of all that, Hartley is clearly a leader, and he keeps his shit together for England. His throwing is more or less flawless, he gets involved in the tight, hits rucks and has turned himself into a strong scrummager (when's the last time he stood up?).

George has repeatedly missed clutch throws for England - that's all that really matters.

Eddie Jones obviously disagrees as he has dropped Hartley to the bench and stated:

“He [Hartley] can work a bit harder,” the head coach said. “Generally speaking, he is going well. [He needs] More actions. More tackles, more clean-outs, more carries. He can do more of that. But he is going well.”

Eddie mind games. Until George is reliable at the primary parts of his job Hartley is no1.

Except he's been dropped so is no longer the no.1. It's the first time that EJ has picked George ahead of Hartley versus a tier 1 nation.

Owen Slot reckons that although this is the beginning of the end for Hartley, he will still go to Japan.

Care has been dropped, George is getting a chance to start.

The consensus is that he has been dropped.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... lia-clash/

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 46231.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this ... -kgbcq66hg

That's because our press are addicted to:
a) establishing narratives
b) sowing discord and discontent

even when the truth is at completely the other end of the spectrum to what they're attempting to push.

sockwithaticket wrote:That's because our press are addicted to:
a) establishing narratives
b) sowing discord and discontent

even when the truth is at completely the other end of the spectrum to what they're attempting to push.

That’s how I see it. Dropped is sent back to saints last week.

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

openclashXX wrote:

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

Whoever said that Maro would not start must be out on licence only.

Also Farell, just a question of where he plays.

Wunderhill must be very close to nailing his slot imo

openclashXX wrote:

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

On the scrum podcast they had the following definite starters:

Itoje
M Vunipola
B Vunipola
May
Farrell
Daly

openclashXX wrote:

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

One of them could well be at fullback, and this did start as nailing down a specific shirt even if it has progressed

ManInTheBar wrote:

openclashXX wrote:

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

Whoever said that Maro would not start must be out on licence only.

Also Farell, just a question of where he plays.

Wunderhill must be very close to nailing his slot imo

But what shirt has Farrell nailed down? Some wouldn't select and of the many who would there's a split as to which role. And Underhill cannot have possible usurped Curry by any definitive measure, maybe he'll keep the shirt but it's only a maybe

Has their been a better fullback in the premiership than Alex Goode over the last year ?

Will Watson recover from consecutive Achilles injury’s?

DragsterDriver wrote:Will Watson recover from consecutive Achilles injury’s?

Back Jan/Feb apparently so let’s hope so.

piquant wrote: But what shirt has Farrell nailed down? Some wouldn't select and of the many who would there's a split as to which role. And Underhill cannot have possible usurped Curry by any definitive measure, maybe he'll keep the shirt but it's only a maybe

Agreed, may have misread the question, I admit it's still open as to where Farrell plays. But he WILL play.

I do think Underhill is ahead of Curry, currently, and Curry is running out of games to show otherwise.

forrester wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:Will Watson recover from consecutive Achilles injury’s?

Back Jan/Feb apparently so let’s hope so.

Hope so, he’s an electric winger- bad injury for a sprinter though.

ManInTheBar wrote:

openclashXX wrote:

piquant wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

RodneyRegis wrote:Same with Mako - he never nailed it down before Marler retired.

Yep, every time Eddie tried to make Mako the starter we'd end up reverting to the bloke that can scrummage consistently (if he wasn't banned at the time).

So we're down to May's a nailed on starter?

Disagree - we have the two starting Lions wingers in Daly and Watson who should be starting when fit

Whoever said that Maro would not start must be out on licence only.

Also Farell, just a question of where he plays.

Wunderhill must be very close to nailing his slot imo

Me. In a team with an almost routine discipline problem Itoje is one of the worst offenders. I also think he's a beneficiary of narrative in the same way Farrell is, people have talked him up too much and they desperately want him to be as good as their hyperbole, but he's not. He's still damned good, I just wouldn't say he necessarily warrants a start over Launch, Lawes or Kruis he just usually seems to be one of the 2 of those 4 who's always available come international time.

Underhill's nowhere near nailed on despite one very good performance and a couple of excellent highlights in the 6 Nations. If he's fit and manages to play the 6 Nations in a similar vein to his NZ performance, then we're talking.

For all teams the time has come to settle on the squad - best players or not - to go to the WC. From now on it will be about cohesion.

Anonymous. wrote:Has their been a better fullback in the premiership than Alex Goode over the last year ?

That's the problem with him, he never shows it at international level.

Watching Daly under the high ball and his angles in cover defence, I don’t think he’s better than Goode although I’m confident they’re just nursing mike brown through to the rwc with reduced game time.

happyhooker wrote:

fatcat wrote:

Tom_ wrote:Now then. Is anyone able to advise on reasonable/any places to watch the England game, or others, this weekend in Dubai please?

You'll probably get better luck if you start a separate thread so that all nationalities will see it. PR is bound to come up trumps!

Nell gwynn pub if you're near the marina

There's also a pub either in or next to the Marriott that's more downtown. Can't remember it's name though

Thanks both. I thought i ought not start a new thread, but might reconsider having seen some of the dross people do post..
I thought i was quite near the marina, near internet city metro, but just checked googlemaps and had definitely not appreciated the scale of the place!

Just avoid looking shifty, they don’t like spies.

If all players are fit and available then I think the first-choice XV is more straightforward than people think

Back three: Daly, Brown, Watson

No real queries about this one, England's only proper test fullback and the two Lions wingers. May and Nowell to provide cover but if fit you go with those three every time

Midfield: Farrell, Joseph

Who else has made a compelling case for inclusion in Eddie's tenure? They were a great pair when at their best and our defence has been hopeless without Joseph. Tuilagi or Te'o on the bench to change things up if it isn't working

Halfs: Youngs, Ford

Again, who else has done better? Care has been toilet, Farrell has been bang average at 10, these two play together on a weekly basis and aren't perfect but clearly our best-performing pair in recent years

Back row: ??, ??, Billy V

Probably the only area where I'm legitimately unsure who will start in the World Cup. I can see Wilson on the bench as cover for all three positions but then it becomes a straight shoot-out between Robshaw and Shields for the start at 6, and Curry and Underhill for 7. Will depend on who's fit and in form at the time

Second row: Itoje, AN Other (probably Kruis)

Any pair would be fine here tbh. Just think Itoje has taken on a bit of a hard-man role within the pack and will probably start if fit

Front row: Mako, Hartley, Sinckler

The only question mark here is Sinckler, but I think you keep Cole on the bench so he can shore up the scrum Jason Leonard-style if things go pear-shaped at tighthead. Otherwise who else has done better at LH and hooker?

Don’t be surprised if it’s something like this:

1. Moon/Genge
2. Hartley (c)
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Lawes
6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Daly
15. Watson

Think Moon has been brilliant all the games and may start. Underhill nailed on. Farrell I think now has the 10 spot and Tuilagi will eventually start somewhere.

He’s looking to shore up the scrum and add physicality to the side. Think Genge, Hughes, Fiji Joe, Manu will all be looked at quite a lot.

openclashXX wrote:If all players are fit and available then I think the first-choice XV is more straightforward than people think

Back three: Daly, Brown, Watson

No real queries about this one, England's only proper test fullback and the two Lions wingers. May and Nowell to provide cover but if fit you go with those three every time

Midfield: Farrell, Joseph

Who else has made a compelling case for inclusion in Eddie's tenure? They were a great pair when at their best and our defence has been hopeless without Joseph. Tuilagi or Te'o on the bench to change things up if it isn't working

Halfs: Youngs, Ford

Again, who else has done better? Care has been toilet, Farrell has been bang average at 10, these two play together on a weekly basis and aren't perfect but clearly our best-performing pair in recent years

Back row: ??, ??, Billy V

Probably the only area where I'm legitimately unsure who will start in the World Cup. I can see Wilson on the bench as cover for all three positions but then it becomes a straight shoot-out between Robshaw and Shields for the start at 6, and Curry and Underhill for 7. Will depend on who's fit and in form at the time

Second row: Itoje, AN Other (probably Kruis)

Any pair would be fine here tbh. Just think Itoje has taken on a bit of a hard-man role within the pack and will probably start if fit

Front row: Mako, Hartley, Sinckler

The only question mark here is Sinckler, but I think you keep Cole on the bench so he can shore up the scrum Jason Leonard-style if things go pear-shaped at tighthead. Otherwise who else has done better at LH and hooker?

For the most part I agree. However, I think May has earnt his spot in the starting XV. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Watson or Daly could well be at 15. Personally, I’d be inclined to go with Brown at 15 with May and Daly on the wings. However, Watson could change my mind if he comes back in to fitness and form. If he does, Daly becomes an ideal option for the 23 shirt.

This may be overly simplistic, but I believe Brown is our best out-and-out fullback (partly though a lack of alternatives) and May is our best out-and-out winger (on a sustained run of form). Daly or Watson have become the either/or through injury or lack of form IMO, but I believe Daly’s ability to cover 11, 13 and 15 makes him the better bench option of the two.

For myself I'd have Launchbury as first name on the team sheet, partly he's such a good player and partly he creates more options elsewhere. England struggle find forwards with decent pace who can also play in the tight and with decent hands, and in Joe you get the lot

piquant wrote:For myself I'd have Launchbury as first name on the team sheet, partly he's such a good player and partly he creates more options elsewhere. England struggle find forwards with decent pace who can also play in the tight and with decent hands, and in Joe you get the lot