Planet Rugby Forum

UEARFC wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

UEARFC wrote:

happyhooker wrote:How many teams do the all blacks pick from?

Principally about two usually. Sometimes less.

I suspect what he's getting at is that with 5 teams instead of 12 there's a far greater concentration of talent meaning you would expect to see much higher representations from individual sides, especially if one of those is on a good run.

I did forget Ford, but since he's far and away one of our best players you don't get to include him when trying to denigrate the contribution of Leicester to England.

The NPC had 10 teams in it. It would be highly unlikely that an All Blacks team would feature many if any players from the bottom 6 or 7 teams in the championship.

This really isn't a contrary POV.

UEARFC wrote:

choc wrote:

UEARFC wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

UEARFC wrote:

Indeed, the plan of picking an England team based on Quins and Leicester players really served England well in the last few years.

Err, we've rarely had more than 3 from either team in the side at any one time.

Robshaw, Brown, Care and Marler will have been the max for Quins and I can't think of us being able to utilise all 4 since maybe 2017 where we won the 6 Nations title. Other than Youngs, Cole and latterly Tuilagi, which Leicester players have been involved regularly?

We have had a shitload of Sarries players, though. Maybe it's relying so heavily on them that's the problem.

Ford.

If you ever go to New Zealand then speak to Kiwis about how the All Blacks gets picked. When I first went over there the All Blacks team was largely picked from whoever the current NPC champions were. Then they picked largely from the best NZ Super Rugby team. Kiwis understand that there is a clear correlation between a team that wins the domestic competition with a strong national side. The current All Blacks squad is heavily influenced by the Crusaders and the Chiefs as will their RWC squad. When Auckland were the kingpins then the All Blacks were full of Aucklanders.

This is not rocket science.

Or controversial.

Or contrary.

Saracens are likely to provide five of the starting pack and at least a couple of backs. That’s half the starting side.

How is that not building a side around them?

If you look at the All Blacks, their RWC squads (both amateur and pro) will typically include 12-15 members of the top domestic side. Given the hegemony of Exeter and Saracens throughout the entire Jones tenure, I'd expect a 31-man England RWC squad to be about 22-25 players from those two sides with the remainder from the other sides.

UEARFC wrote:

sockwithaticket wrote:

UEARFC wrote:

happyhooker wrote:How many teams do the all blacks pick from?

Principally about two usually. Sometimes less.

I suspect what he's getting at is that with 5 teams instead of 12 there's a far greater concentration of talent meaning you would expect to see much higher representations from individual sides, especially if one of those is on a good run.

I did forget Ford, but since he's far and away one of our best players you don't get to include him when trying to denigrate the contribution of Leicester to England.

The NPC had 10 teams in it. It would be highly unlikely that an All Blacks team would feature many if any players from the bottom 6 or 7 teams in the championship.

This really isn't a contrary POV.

DragsterDriver wrote:And moving on- the latest squad?

Iron Mike is in

DragsterDriver wrote:And moving on- the latest squad?

Iron Mike is in

choc wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:And moving on- the latest squad?

Iron Mike is in

Jake, can you let Toga back in for 10, please?

England training squad

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints), Val Rapava Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs

Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby), Dan Robson (Wasps), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

*In for medical treatment

George Kruis (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Jake wrote:Say Hello Toga
Wave Goodbye Toga

Gospel wrote:

Jake wrote:Say Hello Toga
Wave Goodbye Toga

Incidentally why is Toga shoot on site but the legion of Irish trolls are not? If the former is to preserve the sane of mind from inane debate then what about the latter?

SaintK wrote:

choc wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:And moving on- the latest squad?

Iron Mike is in

Jake, can you let Toga back in for 10, please?

Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is

Joost wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is

He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.

Joost wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is

He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.

Margin_Walker wrote:

Joost wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Glad that Dombrandt made the initial cut.

One season wonder or not, he's a fun player to watch and offers a genuine point of difference. Given his late start will be interesting to see where his ceiling is

He was seriously impressive in the BaaBaas game - deserves a look

Really pleased that Ruairi McConnochie is in as well; he’ll suit England’s aerial game perfectly and has been outstanding in a very underwhelming Bath side all season.

Yeah, he's been quietly very impressive whenever I've seen him. In hindsight a very smart signing by Bath

DragsterDriver wrote:Mike Catt joins the Ireland set up- prepare for him to attain god status

openclashXX wrote:Will Greenwood's comments on the England squad are strange, seems like a massive bit of revisionism but he claims Care's performance vs Japan last Autumn was what cost him his place in the WC squad

I mean, sure it fits the timeline given he hasn't played for England since, but really?

eldanielfire wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:Mike Catt joins the Ireland set up- prepare for him to attain god status

Balls Out! wrote:

openclashXX wrote:Will Greenwood's comments on the England squad are strange, seems like a massive bit of revisionism but he claims Care's performance vs Japan last Autumn was what cost him his place in the WC squad

I mean, sure it fits the timeline given he hasn't played for England since, but really?

I saw that and questioned it, as I don't really remember that game. But sure enough I found a Telegraph article from back then in which (from the first couple of non-paywalled paragraphs) Care himself says Eddie dropped him because he wasn't good enough against Japan. He would have to earn his spot back through club form which presumably he didn't manage to do

openclashXX wrote:to be fair it was a shitshow against Japan when he started, but let's be honest about this - Danny Care has 80+ test under 3 different coaching setups and has never looked convincing as a starting 9 for England, all of his positive impact for England has come from the bench - so everyone knows what Care brings to an England team

what I find bizarre is why he was dropped now having been involved with Eddie's England squads for the previous 3 seasons, and what has changed in the pecking order with other 9s to allow him to be dropped (other than maybe Ben Spencer's emergence as the starting 9 for Sarries)

Robson is still pretty much untested at this level (and potentially not even able to compete physically given his medical status), Wigglesworth is still Wigglesworth (and not even starting the big games for Sarries anymore), the young kids that have been given the odd call-up or namecheck here and there (Maunder, Randall etc) aren't realistically going to be involved - so why dump Care now and not 1-2 years ago?

Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well.

It just defies all logic.

Sale Sharks’ Chris Ashton has withdrawn from England’s World Cup training squad for family reasons.

The 32 year old winger will not be replaced in the squad that assembles at Pennyhill Park Hotel today.

Ashton, who has been capped 44 times for England, said: “When I returned from Toulon last season it was for two reasons; firstly for my family and secondly to try and realise the dream of playing for England again.

“Pulling on the white shirt is always special and I’m grateful to Eddie for giving me the opportunity to have done so again.

“My wife, Melissa, is pregnant with our second child and I don’t feel it is right for me to commit to being away in camp at this stage.

“In the meantime I wish Owen and the boys all the very best with their preparation over the coming months.”

sockwithaticket wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well.

It just defies all logic.

That's what I was hinting at, he's stuck within Hughes through some really patchy form and now that he's been playing well again he appears to be dropped

Scrumhead wrote:Club form counts for nothing with Eddie. Look no further than Ben Te’o for the evidence of that.

What he likes and doesn’t like are a real mystery TBH.

Care is not a starter for England, but he is an excellent impact sub. Leaving him out would have been OK if Eddie had actually given Robson or Spencer any meaningful game time over the past few seasons. My issue is dropping him at the 11th hour without having invested in his replacements.

The same goes for Hughes. Eddie stuck with him despite a significant slump in form only to drop him when he’s actually playing well.

It just defies all logic.