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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Sorry to appear in your thread, and I daresay it’s been covered at length earlier on.

However, is Alex Goode really, really not an option at FB? At the very least he’s a very versatile back, who wouldn’t look out of place on the plane to Japan.

FB does seem to be a bit of a problem area, with Daly unconvincing and Watson coming back. I get you could say the same for Goode (unconvincing) in an England shirt but, you know, he could just “come right” for you.

I shall now depart.

Well done yesterday! :x


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
The backrow balance is still off for me, 3 open sides and just 1 blindside/no.8.

Plus Wilson is the backup 8 and I’m presuming alongside being the first choice 6 so is he going to be playing all 4 group games? Because I’m guessing they’ll try and save Billy for France/Arg rather than risk him against Tonga/USA

Lawes will get time at 6.


Underhill was originally down to start at 6 at the w/e, wasn’t he? Lack of lineout aside, I reckon he’d make a perfectly serviceable international 6.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 pm 
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MaccTaff wrote:
Sorry to appear in your thread, and I daresay it’s been covered at length earlier on.

However, is Alex Goode really, really not an option at FB? At the very least he’s a very versatile back, who wouldn’t look out of place on the plane to Japan.

FB does seem to be a bit of a problem area, with Daly unconvincing and Watson coming back. I get you could say the same for Goode (unconvincing) in an England shirt but, you know, he could just “come right” for you.

I shall now depart.

Well done yesterday! :x


Theoretically, he's the obvious choice. Unfortunately, he's always been meh at best at 15 for England.

Hasn't stopped Eddie picking Daly, mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:45 pm 
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MaccTaff wrote:
Sorry to appear in your thread, and I daresay it’s been covered at length earlier on.

However, is Alex Goode really, really not an option at FB? At the very least he’s a very versatile back, who wouldn’t look out of place on the plane to Japan.

FB does seem to be a bit of a problem area, with Daly unconvincing and Watson coming back. I get you could say the same for Goode (unconvincing) in an England shirt but, you know, he could just “come right” for you.

I shall now depart.

Well done yesterday! :x


Tbh, he’d make a better reserve 10 than Francis (and who knows, probably a better 12 than Francis!) and a better fullback than Daly, but that ship sailed long ago!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Joost wrote:
Sefton wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
The backrow balance is still off for me, 3 open sides and just 1 blindside/no.8.

Plus Wilson is the backup 8 and I’m presuming alongside being the first choice 6 so is he going to be playing all 4 group games? Because I’m guessing they’ll try and save Billy for France/Arg rather than risk him against Tonga/USA

Lawes will get time at 6.


Underhill was originally down to start at 6 at the w/e, wasn’t he? Lack of lineout aside, I reckon he’d make a perfectly serviceable international 6.


He was down to start at 7, with Curry at 6. Curry then switched to 7 and Ludlam came in at 6.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Williams for Cole is a bit of a surprise. Otherwise no big shocks.

Mako
George
Sink
Itoje
Kruis
Wilson
Curry
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Slade
Coka
Watson

LCD, Genge, Cole, Launch, Underhill, Heinz, Farrell, Daly

Please.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:47 pm 
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Seems a bit strange to only have 2 THs and 2 scrum halfs but 6 back 3. I'd have kept with 3 THs and lost Mcconnachie. Not quite sure what Ludlam offers over Robshaw.

Still this would be my 23

Mako
George
Sinks
Itoje
Kruis
Underhill
Curry
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
May
Manu
JJ
Daly
Watson

Genge, LCD, Cole, Lawes, Wilson, Heinz, Ford, Nowell/Cokanasinga


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:50 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
TopNacker wrote:
Ford still cannot manage a game, as skipper he lost the plot in the second half. The best way to defend a lead is retain possession. He kicks it straight down the throat of the opposition. England must get away from the idiot mentality of relying on defence when they have a lead. Keep the buckin ball !

We must be better 5 yds out at either end of the pitch. We allow the opposition to convert frequently, but aren’t converting ourselves. Again, keep the ball in hand, attack with speed and leg pump. Be patient.

Ludlum and Genge did well.


EH? Most of England's 2nd half loses have been due to Farrell. With Ford it barely ever happened. In fact against Scotland this year Ford saved us.

Yeah, an incredible inference considering Farrell's capitulation in the 6n. Keep the ball indeed.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Madness wrote:
Not quite sure what Ludlam offers over Robshaw.


Functional knees?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm 
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I could live with Daly at fullback if it made sense based on our strengths and weaknesses. Were we rock-solid in defence and struggling to score points then his attacking play from 15 - which is better than he's sometimes given credit for I think -might make sense.

As we score a lot of points, but have a poor, easily flustered defence in general and go absolutely to pieces for prolonged periods in most games, I'd have thought a hard and reliable full back essential.

He's slow and a total crowbar, but I think we miss Brown for more than just his tackling and high ball skills. We never look angry or aggressive enough when we're under the cosh. We blow teams away with our power on attack, but then when we give away penalties and they get deep in our half, we just seem to slowly and inevitably fold. A hard, angry fullback surely plays a part in instilling a tougher defensive mentality? Daly's positioning is a problem, he's weak under kicks, but he's also - by the standards of top international rugby players - a bit soft.

Eddie seems convinced teams will have to win ugly in low-scoring battles. I struggle to see how we do that with Daly at 15.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Some baffling selections there. Does nobody think it's a bit of a farce that Eddie has had a full wc cylce to look at players and give them experience, and has picked 4 bolters?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Oxbow wrote:
Joost wrote:
Sefton wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
The backrow balance is still off for me, 3 open sides and just 1 blindside/no.8.

Plus Wilson is the backup 8 and I’m presuming alongside being the first choice 6 so is he going to be playing all 4 group games? Because I’m guessing they’ll try and save Billy for France/Arg rather than risk him against Tonga/USA

Lawes will get time at 6.


Underhill was originally down to start at 6 at the w/e, wasn’t he? Lack of lineout aside, I reckon he’d make a perfectly serviceable international 6.


He was down to start at 7, with Curry at 6. Curry then switched to 7 and Ludlam came in at 6.


Ah yes, quite right. Still think Underhill makes the more natural 6 out of those two, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Madness wrote:
Seems a bit strange to only have 2 THs and 2 scrum halfs but 6 back 3. I'd have kept with 3 THs and lost Mcconnachie.


It is odd. I assumed that Rory Mc was in the original squad as cover for Nowell. Maybe if Nowell doesn't make it, they will bring in Harry Williams.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:03 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
Some baffling selections there. Does nobody think it's a bit of a farce that Eddie has had a full wc cylce to look at players and give them experience, and has picked 4 bolters?

Key experienced players got permacrocked or fell off a cliff.

Do what you can really.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Some baffling selections there. Does nobody think it's a bit of a farce that Eddie has had a full wc cylce to look at players and give them experience, and has picked 4 bolters?

Key experienced players got permacrocked or fell off a cliff.

Do what you can really.


Do me a favour :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:05 pm 
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MaccTaff wrote:
Sorry to appear in your thread, and I daresay it’s been covered at length earlier on.

However, is Alex Goode really, really not an option at FB? At the very least he’s a very versatile back, who wouldn’t look out of place on the plane to Japan.

FB does seem to be a bit of a problem area, with Daly unconvincing and Watson coming back. I get you could say the same for Goode (unconvincing) in an England shirt but, you know, he could just “come right” for you.

I shall now depart.

Well done yesterday! :x


Goode has glaring weaknesses to his game that still get exposed at club level.

Anyway, mediocre squad, lots of time invested in players only for them to be binned at the last minute, too much faith in Super Rugby experience over actual talent and success, and a right mess in several key decision making positions.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:13 pm 
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And the token robbed/injured/ignored/not going 23

Moon
Hartley
Williams
Ewels
Isiekwe
Shields
Curry
Hughes
Robson
Cips
Thorley
Teo
Marchant
Ashton
Goode

Barrington, Taylor, Brookes, Hill, Dombrandt, Spencer, Smith, Lozowski

and then even further down the pecking order 23

Rapava-Ruskin
Dunn
Painter
Slater
Stooke
Robshaw
Harrison
Morgan
Mitchell
Simmonds
Woodburn
Barritt
Tompkins
Roko
Woodward

Balmain, Cruise, Cooper Wooley, Beaumont, Rhodes, Care, Malins, Trinder


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Happy enough with the squad all things considered. Bit too heavy on bolters, but I don't think the players they are replacing would add too much to the party.

You can certainly make a decent 23 out of that lot, so it's over to them

That video is very well done too. Nice touch.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Madness wrote:
And the token robbed/injured/ignored/not going 23

Moon
Hartley
Williams
Ewels
Isiekwe
Shields
Curry
Hughes
Robson
Cips
Thorley
Teo
Marchant
Ashton
Goode

Barrington, Taylor, Brookes, Hill, Dombrandt, Spencer, Smith, Lozowski

and then even further down the pecking order 23

Rapava-Ruskin
Dunn
Painter
Slater
Stooke
Robshaw
Harrison
Morgan
Mitchell
Simmonds
Woodburn
Barritt
Tompkins
Roko
Woodward

Balmain, Cruise, Cooper Wooley, Beaumont, Rhodes, Care, Malins, Trinder


Pretty good depth to be fair.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Some baffling selections there. Does nobody think it's a bit of a farce that Eddie has had a full wc cylce to look at players and give them experience, and has picked 4 bolters?

Key experienced players got permacrocked or fell off a cliff.

Do what you can really.


Heinz for spencer/care?

Francis has been in or around the squad for 4 years and never trusted with a proper match. What on earth is he doing in the squad.

Hartley has been on the heap for yonks, how has singleton not been looked at? Same with mcconochie. Ludlum is not understandable, but surely robshaw's experience counts for more than his potential at this stage. For the last year we've heard that you don't pick new caps in the year leading up to a world cup...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:32 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
RodneyRegis wrote:
Some baffling selections there. Does nobody think it's a bit of a farce that Eddie has had a full wc cylce to look at players and give them experience, and has picked 4 bolters?

Key experienced players got permacrocked or fell off a cliff.

Do what you can really.


Heinz for spencer/care?

Francis has been in or around the squad for 4 years and never trusted with a proper match. What on earth is he doing in the squad.

Hartley has been on the heap for yonks, how has singleton not been looked at? Same with mcconochie. Ludlum is not understandable, but surely robshaw's experience counts for more than his potential at this stage. For the last year we've heard that you don't pick new caps in the year leading up to a world cup...


You either go for Robshaw's experience - and let's face it, his decline amounted to 2 losses then a win when playing 6 - or you pick Mercer or Dombrandt or Hill or Ellis another player who's actually earned it. Ludlum is average as fudge, he did nothing during the season to earn it, and didn't show anything yesterday that suggested he was international class.

Robshaw's played for Eddie 23 times. We've lost 4 of those, and 2 of them he was having to play 7!

Brad Shields has played for Eddie 8 times, and we've won 3 of those matches. Great stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:40 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
England’s official Rugby World Cup squad

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) ** past it
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps) can't throw
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps) key
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps) ok
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) * key
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps) key
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) * seems to be back
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) * key
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) ** excellent
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap) no
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) * key
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps) key
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap) no
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps) hope he stay fit
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) * superstar
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) * supersub
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons / Sale Sharks, 13 caps) key

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps) box office, glaring deficiencies
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps) out of poaition
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) * will shit the bed, guaranteed
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) * class, will ride the pine
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps) fudge off
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap) wtf
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) * a shadow of his former self
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) * world class

Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped) who?
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) * meh

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) * hope he can realise his potential

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) * can't leave him out
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) * hope he gets left on the wing
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) ** fudge me.

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Great to see Ludlam in there. I know some were not impressed but I thought he was pretty good on Sunday


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:50 pm 
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You're being quite passive aggressive at the moment aren't you :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Fairly non-plussed about the selection. Seems odd to have so many bolters given the apparent rigour to Eddie's process over the last four years. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Feels weird to go back to guys like Dan Cole, too. We got a Dan Cole special at the weekend - no carries and 3 tackles :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm 
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I've no problem with the bolters, it's not as if those left out had made a solid case for their inclusion.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Nobleman wrote:
Madness wrote:
Seems a bit strange to only have 2 THs and 2 scrum halfs but 6 back 3. I'd have kept with 3 THs and lost Mcconnachie.


It is odd. I assumed that Rory Mc was in the original squad as cover for Nowell. Maybe if Nowell doesn't make it, they will bring in Harry Williams.


He’s in a similar pace bracket to Nowell tbf [/Anon]


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
I've no problem with the bolters, it's not as if those left out had made a solid case for their inclusion.

I think Spencer in particular can feel pretty hard done by.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:01 pm 
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If we make the quarter finals Mcconnachie for 1st choice full back


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
I've no problem with the bolters, it's not as if those left out had made a solid case for their inclusion.


Possibly - but did the bolters?

You've got 6 back 3 players and no proper full back. Surely Watson, Nowell, Thocka, May gives you enough wing cover that Brown is the better bet over Rory?

I mean nobody actually thinks he's going to trust Francis in a proper WC game, unless injuries force his hand, do they?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:13 pm 
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RodneyRegis wrote:
You've got 6 back 3 players and no proper full back. Surely Watson, Nowell, Thocka, May gives you enough wing cover that Brown is the better bet over Rory?


Alex Lowe from the Times mentioned that Eddie's been obsessed with Milner-Skudder's emergence at the last world cup and sees similar potential in McConnochie


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Heinz over Spencer is the most egregious. You don't become Sarries' starting 9 without offering a huge amount of game control. He started two finals that they won this year, which means he has better experience at knockout rugby than Heinz as well as being quicker and more likely to score a try.


The bolter thing can potentially work. The opposition aren't going to have much game tape on them and have been able to analyse them to death. At the same time they may as well be strangers to most of their team mates. Much of this England squad aren't exactly international veterans, it's one thing dropping a rookie into a settled environment, perhaps quite another to land a few into a squad in flux.

Persevering with Hughes for so long, often when he was, at best, half fit, only to dump him and have our most robust flanker as our sole 8 cover if Billy goes down, a distinct possibility on recent history, seems odd.

Should be 6 props and one fewer back three player, but then World Cup squads should be bigger given how attritional rugby has become.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Bolters are great if they are going to offer something really special. Players with a bit of a club following of people who have been saying that these guys are good enough to light up a tournament but everyone else just looks at it as club bias, and it turns out they really are that good.

Singleton, Ludlam, McConnochie, Heinz - and I'd include Francis as well - I've heard nobody touting these guys as better than the incumbents. It's like Dombrandt hit the headlines too early - Eddie actually got a chance to discard him. He hasn't had that chance with these guys, so they get in by default of being the last ones standing on the merry-go-round with no time left to kick them off.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
I've no problem with the bolters, it's not as if those left out had made a solid case for their inclusion.


The bolters haven't either. McConnochie's scored a couple of tries all season, Ludlam's been nowhere near the class of guys like Mercer or Dombrandt or Robshaw or Hill or Ellis or Ross, Heinz has done okay but he's gotten ahead of the guy who's the starting (and starring) scrum half for the Premiership and European Champions, etc etc


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:28 pm 
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A snap analysis of the squad:

Hookers - George is first-rate, but no real depth beyond him - not sure we could've done anything much-different, given Hartley's fitness

Props - Genuine depth here with Marler's return, no complaints

Locks - Probably the best depth in world rugby for locks

Backrow - First choice looks very balanced, if somewhat injury-prone. Not much depth beyond that though; Hughes' unceremonious dropping is one of the big surprises of the past few months.

Scrumhalf - Continued bizarre approach of only 2 no. 9s and Heinz's elevation has come out of nowhere. Difficult to know what more Spencer could've done this season.

Fly-half - As-expected, taking Cipriani as a 3rd 10 would've been fairly pointless.

Centres - No sure-fire combination, but Tuilagi-Slade / Farrell-Joseph have both played together and performed well-enough in recent times. Would've taken Lozowski over Francis any day.

Back 3 - A plethora of top-quality wingers, but no test-level fullback. Could be our biggest problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:30 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Feels weird to go back to guys like Dan Cole, too. We got a Dan Cole special at the weekend - no carries and 3 tackles :thumbup:



Have literally no idea what is going on there. Williams was pretty good yesterday.

As for Francis...well, I guess every coach has one.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:33 pm 
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Would have probably punted for Cips or Loz over Francis. Heinz is still bizzare, but whatever, he'll do a job. I'd drop a winger (probably McConnochie) and take Williams.

But overall, not unhappy with the squad.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:34 pm 
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p.s.

I think Heinz will struggle in proper Test rugby. Can't kick for shit.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:41 pm 
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That Curry kid looked so good it wouldn't surprise me if fiendish Eddie tries to clone him


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