Planet Rugby Forum

Balls Out! wrote:

Pebbles wrote:As for Falcons, one thing you can't knock them for is their academy production line... Stuart Lancaster whilst ultimately unsuccessful with England had a massive role in... the establishment of the successful age-group & academy pathway for RFU.

Not refuting those points per se, but I'd be interested to know which players were Falcons or Leeds (under Lancaster) academy graduates who went on to play in the senior England team, and how their senior careers turned out. I know there were a lot (for Leeds, anyway), but don't know/ can't think who they are:

Falcons

Toby Flood
Mark Wilson?
Who else

Leeds

Danny Care
Jordan Crane
Luther?
Who else

Falcons

Wilkinson
Walder
Matt Tait
Geof Parling
Dave’s Wilson
Kieran Brookes
Phil Dowson
Alex Grey
Tom May
Jamie Noon
Lee Dickson
Tim Swinson
Tim Visser

Internationals/noteables from that era if I recollect correctly, not all English.

comets wrote:temporarily replaced by Ben Moon..

That will help the tight five offloading crew...

Nah, good luck to him.

The Man Without Fear wrote:

comets wrote:temporarily replaced by Ben Moon..

That will help the tight five offloading crew...

Nah, good luck to him.

Moon really stood up last year when I was expecting to be underwhelmed

happyhooker wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:

comets wrote:temporarily replaced by Ben Moon..

That will help the tight five offloading crew...

Nah, good luck to him.

Moon really stood up last year when I was expecting to be underwhelmed

He did indeed. One of the definite pluses.

fatcat wrote:

happyhooker wrote:

The Man Without Fear wrote:

comets wrote:temporarily replaced by Ben Moon..

That will help the tight five offloading crew...

Nah, good luck to him.

Moon really stood up last year when I was expecting to be underwhelmed

He did indeed. One of the definite pluses.

Would've likely been going to the RWC if Joe hadn't decided to unretire himself - such is life, I suppose!

Yep, almost certainly.

OhNo wrote:

Balls Out! wrote:

Pebbles wrote:As for Falcons, one thing you can't knock them for is their academy production line... Stuart Lancaster whilst ultimately unsuccessful with England had a massive role in... the establishment of the successful age-group & academy pathway for RFU.

Not refuting those points per se, but I'd be interested to know which players were Falcons or Leeds (under Lancaster) academy graduates who went on to play in the senior England team, and how their senior careers turned out. I know there were a lot (for Leeds, anyway), but don't know/ can't think who they are:

Falcons

Toby Flood
Mark Wilson?
Who else

Leeds

Danny Care
Jordan Crane
Luther?
Who else

Falcons

Wilkinson
Walder
Matt Tait
Geof Parling
Dave’s Wilson
Kieran Brookes
Phil Dowson
Alex Grey
Tom May
Jamie Noon
Lee Dickson
Tim Swinson
Tim Visser

Internationals/noteables from that era if I recollect correctly, not all English.

fewer than half of those were much chop at international level, I'd say from my comfortable armchair perspective. Thanks, Rob Andrew

fatcat wrote:Mat Tait
Davey Wilson
Walder - did he get capped?

Walder actually got 4 caps, his last being in the trashing of Wales by a near B team in Cardiff in 2003.

Report in this morning's paper suggests Nowell is looking very doubtful for the start of the RWC

Can't say I agree with Monye on this. The best way to ensure players have 100% loyalty to England is to only pick English players.

If residency/grandparent people want to play to reach the pinnacle of their profession that's fine, but why would they be considered to be loyal to a country.

Ben Te'o's decision to call time on his England career by moving to French side Toulon "stinks", says former England back Ugo Monye.

The New Zealand-born centre, 32, signed a short-term deal with the French Top 14 side shortly after being left out of Eddie Jones' World Cup squad.

It means Te'o, who was involved in an off-field altercation at an England camp earlier in August, cannot be called up as an injury replacement.

"I'm disappointed," said Monye.

"I think it is borderline disrespectful. For me, playing for your country is the pinnacle. It is something that millions of people dream of doing and only a few get a chance to do so.

"You can't come and swear allegiance to the country and then the moment things get a bit bumpy, catch the next flight to the south of France. It doesn't sit well with me at all."

SamShark wrote:Can't say I agree with Monye on this. The best way to ensure players have 100% loyalty to England is to only pick English players.

If residency/grandparent people want to play to reach the pinnacle of their profession that's fine, but why would they be considered to be loyal to a country.

Ben Te'o's decision to call time on his England career by moving to French side Toulon "stinks", says former England back Ugo Monye.

The New Zealand-born centre, 32, signed a short-term deal with the French Top 14 side shortly after being left out of Eddie Jones' World Cup squad.

It means Te'o, who was involved in an off-field altercation at an England camp earlier in August, cannot be called up as an injury replacement.

"I'm disappointed," said Monye.

"I think it is borderline disrespectful. For me, playing for your country is the pinnacle. It is something that millions of people dream of doing and only a few get a chance to do so.

"You can't come and swear allegiance to the country and then the moment things get a bit bumpy, catch the next flight to the south of France. It doesn't sit well with me at all."

Does everyone have to think like Monye? Frankly so what if an English player wanted to go and play in France thinking that the best decision for them and/or their family

SamShark wrote:Can't say I agree with Monye on this. The best way to ensure players have 100% loyalty to England is to only pick English players.

If residency/grandparent people want to play to reach the pinnacle of their profession that's fine, but why would they be considered to be loyal to a country.

Ben Te'o's decision to call time on his England career by moving to French side Toulon "stinks", says former England back Ugo Monye.

The New Zealand-born centre, 32, signed a short-term deal with the French Top 14 side shortly after being left out of Eddie Jones' World Cup squad.

It means Te'o, who was involved in an off-field altercation at an England camp earlier in August, cannot be called up as an injury replacement.

"I'm disappointed," said Monye.

"I think it is borderline disrespectful. For me, playing for your country is the pinnacle. It is something that millions of people dream of doing and only a few get a chance to do so.

"You can't come and swear allegiance to the country and then the moment things get a bit bumpy, catch the next flight to the south of France. It doesn't sit well with me at all."

I think the whole of that section on the podcast gives a bit more nuance to Ugo's view, but I can't say I disagree with him. While the World Cup's on, there's a chance of getting back into the squad, take a short term loan deal in the Prem or something. Look at Hask, took a massive paycut to go to Northampton so that he could try and get himself in the frame for the World Cup, Cips could reportedly earn a lot more in Japan or France than at Gloucester (though he's obviously well remunerated there), but he chose to stick around to fight for England contention.

If a play is more mercenary and wants to chase the cash, then fine, but no one can be surprised when supporters of the national team view them with a bit of disdain. Why should we regard someone who doesn't value the national shirt with any warmth.

Danny Care's input was interesting, saying that Te'o had always been quite open about being a merc, but that nobody minded because he's a good bloke.

I would imagine teo knew full well he wasn’t getting called up as injury replacement.

DragsterDriver wrote:I would imagine teo knew full well he wasn’t getting called up as injury replacement.

Would love to know the detail of what went down in Treviso...

pjm1 wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:I would imagine teo knew full well he wasn’t getting called up as injury replacement.

Would love to know the detail of what went down in Treviso...

Yeah me too, I know Angry Mike is a bit of a nutter but I've not heard of him going off on team mates before.

All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

Afaik they’ve historical bad blood but it was teo who started swinging.

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

DragsterDriver wrote:Afaik they’ve historical bad blood but it was teo who started swinging.

There was a previous Twitter spat between the two

eldanielfire wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

Maybe harsh, but he could start a fight in an empty room with his temper

SaintK wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

Maybe harsh, but he could start a fight in an empty room with his temper

Or an empty pitch. By all accounts he's a nice guy off the field. But asking someone to not drink in camp as serious as an Eddie Jones one and in a world cup build-up, he's obviously mostly likely trying to do Teo a favour. Though alternatively I can see it could be Brown getting in Te'o's face doing it the wrong way (insulting him about it and being aggressive).

There is zero evidence that Brown is spikey and confrontational off the pitch.

eldanielfire wrote:

SaintK wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

Maybe harsh, but he could start a fight in an empty room with his temper

Or an empty pitch. By all accounts he's a nice guy off the field. But asking someone to not drink in camp as serious as an Eddie Jones one and in a world cup build-up, he's obviously mostly likely trying to do Teo a favour. Though alternatively I can see it could be Brown getting in Te'o's face doing it the wrong way (insulting him about it and being aggressive).

Begs the question, where was Brown to know that Te'o was drinking hard? If they were BOTH in a bar and a fight started, with whatever provocation or lack of it then both being binned would be wholly explicable

As I understand it:

It was a team social, players were drinking. Brown wasn’t drinking but Te’o was getting loose and out of hand. Brown as senior player intervened and Te’o started swinging.

I *believe* Te’o was binned off for discipline but brown was getting cut anyway and is on standby hence not putting the record straight.

SaintK wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

Maybe harsh, but he could start a fight in an empty room with his temper

Not off the pitch - pretty much everyone who knows him at all describes him as a pretty gentle bloke. Besides, how many actual fights has he had on the pitch? And how often has his "temper" actually gotten him into trouble off the pitch?

Some pisshead Kiwi with a history of poor decisions due to the booze taking a swing at a player he doesn't like is all this is.

Brown was never going to be in the RWC squad so it was no skin off Eddie's nose to bin him.

My England team for Italy:

1. Joe Marler
2. Luke Cowan Dickie
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Joe Launchbury (vc)
6. Lewis Ludlam
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Mark Wilson
9. Ben Youngs (polite and say he needs more game time)
10 George Ford (c)
11. Jonny May
12. Piers Francis
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Ruaridh McConnochie
15. Anthony Watson

Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

And say what you like about Angry Mike he gives everything on the pitch for club and country. I don't think the same can be said of T'eo.

JM2K6 wrote:

SaintK wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:All that's been reported is that Te'o was drinking hard, Brown suggested he shouldn't be hitting it so hard, so Te'o started on him instead.

i.e. no-one really knows except that Te'o was the aggressor, but we have no other context

It seems harsh Mike Brown was sent home over this then if that is the case.

Maybe harsh, but he could start a fight in an empty room with his temper

Not off the pitch - pretty much everyone who knows him at all describes him as a pretty gentle bloke. Besides, how many actual fights has he had on the pitch? And how often has his "temper" actually gotten him into trouble off the pitch?

Some pisshead Kiwi with a history of poor decisions due to the booze taking a swing at a player he doesn't like is all this is.

Brown was never going to be in the RWC squad so it was no skin off Eddie's nose to bin him.

Exactly as I understand it- and concur Browny is a pussy off the pitch.

Brown told a half cut Te'o to go easy and Te'o tee'd off. I believe it was Marler who seperated them and calmed them, which is somewhat ironic...

Wendigo7 wrote:Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

Imo Daly needs all the test time at 15 he can get. Besides, why do back three players need any rest anyway, they hardly do anything.

Rugby2023 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

Imo Daly needs all the test time at 15 he can get. Besides, why do back three players need any rest anyway, they hardly do anything.

I believe, as a fellow forward, that you do not understand the mental stress and hardship that comes with being, potentially, the last line of defence; and how tiring that must be. They need rest. I mean, how easy would you find it to call across the big lugs to make the numbers and tackles in front of you while simultaneously combing your hair?

This is not just an English thing: see "Arriere" below.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... gM-EhcLD4I

Rugby2023 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

Imo Daly needs all the test time at 15 he can get. Besides, why do back three players need any rest anyway, they hardly do anything.

No, someone other than Daly needs as much time at 15 as they can get. Daly's had at least 15 tests there now and has shown zero sign of improvement in his areas of deficiency.

Wendigo7 wrote:My England team for Italy:

1. Joe Marler
2. Luke Cowan Dickie
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Joe Launchbury (vc)
6. Lewis Ludlam
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Mark Wilson
9. Ben Youngs (polite and say he needs more game time)
10 George Ford (c)
11. Jonny May
12. Piers Francis
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Ruaridh McConnochie
15. Anthony Watson

Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

When is Slade meant to be back in action?

Woddy wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Wendigo7 wrote:Italy have gone full strength this weekend against France so I doubt they’ll play a full team too. Watson at 15 to give Daly a rest. Wilson at 8 to give Billy a rest.

Imo Daly needs all the test time at 15 he can get. Besides, why do back three players need any rest anyway, they hardly do anything.

I believe, as a fellow forward, that you do not understand the mental stress and hardship that comes with being, potentially, the last line of defence; and how tiring that must be. They need rest. I mean, how easy would you find it to call across the big lugs to make the numbers and tackles in front of you while simultaneously combing your hair?

This is not just an English thing: see "Arriere" below.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... gM-EhcLD4I

Daly has repeatedly demonstrated that the last line of defence is the person ahead of him.

Balls Out! wrote:

Pebbles wrote:As for Falcons, one thing you can't knock them for is their academy production line... Stuart Lancaster whilst ultimately unsuccessful with England had a massive role in... the establishment of the successful age-group & academy pathway for RFU.

Not refuting those points per se, but I'd be interested to know which players were Falcons or Leeds (under Lancaster) academy graduates who went on to play in the senior England team, and how their senior careers turned out. I know there were a lot (for Leeds, anyway), but don't know/ can't think who they are:

Falcons

Toby Flood
Mark Wilson?
Who else

Leeds

Danny Care
Jordan Crane
Luther?
Who else

Falcons during Fletcher/Walton era; May, Noon, Walder, Stephenson, Charlton, Parling, Dowson, Woods, Tait, Godman, Visser, Wilson, Flood of the top of my head. I’m sure there are others

Edit Vyvyan, Young, Dickson, Phillips too I think, I’m not counting Jonny tbf even though Steve Bates was his school rugby master I believe.

Hall Charlton

Balls Out! wrote:

Pebbles wrote:As for Falcons, one thing you can't knock them for is their academy production line... Stuart Lancaster whilst ultimately unsuccessful with England had a massive role in... the establishment of the successful age-group & academy pathway for RFU.

Not refuting those points per se, but I'd be interested to know which players were Falcons or Leeds (under Lancaster) academy graduates who went on to play in the senior England team, and how their senior careers turned out. I know there were a lot (for Leeds, anyway), but don't know/ can't think who they are:

Falcons

Toby Flood
Mark Wilson?
Who else

Leeds

Danny Care
Jordan Crane
Luther?
Who else

Rob Webber was another from Leeds

I've been watching a few Irish youtube channel shows in the aftermath of the game last weekend and the majority viewpoint seems to be that England have peaked whilst Ireland are still balls deep in periodisation. So on balance come the RWC England will have shot their bolt and Schmidt will have Ireland exactly where they need to be. It's amazing what a 57-15 scoreline reveals. Thank god it wasn't the other way or we'd really be in the shit.

Gospel wrote:I've been watching a few Irish youtube channel shows in the aftermath of the game last weekend and the majority viewpoint seems to be that England have peaked whilst Ireland are still balls deep in periodisation. So on balance come the RWC England will have shot their bolt and Schmidt will have Ireland exactly where they need to be. It's amazing what a 57-15 scoreline reveals. Thank god it wasn't the other way or we'd really be in the shit.

Hmm, there might be a bit of selective interpretation there - at least versus the ones I've listened to. They start off by acknowledging they were dreadful, England were excellent (and one mentioned we left chances on the field and were unlucky only to win by that margin). They then delve into less interesting detail about Irish players, plays etc., and wrap up by saying they were annihilated. There has certainly been reference to them being at a different place in their training but I haven't heard them claim Joe has it right and Eddie wrong: if anything, I've interpreted it as concern that they're too far behind the pack with only two games left.

If Eddie has lost by that margin fans would be piling into him like a free Buffett

pjm1 wrote:

Gospel wrote:I've been watching a few Irish youtube channel shows in the aftermath of the game last weekend and the majority viewpoint seems to be that England have peaked whilst Ireland are still balls deep in periodisation. So on balance come the RWC England will have shot their bolt and Schmidt will have Ireland exactly where they need to be. It's amazing what a 57-15 scoreline reveals. Thank god it wasn't the other way or we'd really be in the shit.

Hmm, there might be a bit of selective interpretation there - at least versus the ones I've listened to. They start off by acknowledging they were dreadful, England were excellent (and one mentioned we left chances on the field and were unlucky only to win by that margin). They then delve into less interesting detail about Irish players, plays etc., and wrap up by saying they were annihilated. There has certainly been reference to them being at a different place in their training but I haven't heard them claim Joe has it right and Eddie wrong: if anything, I've interpreted it as concern that they're too far behind the pack with only two games left.

I was listening to their Wednesday night rugby show and the Joe one. Now granted I may have sensationalised the conclusions a tad but they very much trust that Joe knows what he's doing and feel that the result was something of an aberration which was mostly down to tired legs and the game coming too soon in their process.