Planet Rugby Forum

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:29 am So yesterday Federal Immigration Minister Allan Tudge is found to have broken the law, and not a word from the PM or Tudge himself. Radio silence. And no coverage in any News ltd papers.

Ellafan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:19 am Not happy with Dan Andrews today.

He misfired with his duck-shove on the private security decision - trying to drop blame on his own health minister.

I was starting to like the lad, thought he was showing some spine on responsibility.

I am disappoint.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:46 am

Ellafan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:19 am Not happy with Dan Andrews today.

He misfired with his duck-shove on the private security decision - trying to drop blame on his own health minister.

I was starting to like the lad, thought he was showing some spine on responsibility.

I am disappoint.

What a strange comment. I watched the entire Andrews hearing this afternoon and he did nothing of the sort. He clearly and factually explained what were the Health Minister's responsibilities and what weren't, and took ultimate responsibility for every aspect of the pandemic response as Premier. I can tell from your comment that you didn't watch the hearing and are simply regurgitating talking points from News ltd journalists. How pathetic.

Ellafan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:51 pm I see your tendency to mendacity has not diminshed.

I watched the ABC news, by the way.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:11 pm

Ellafan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:51 pm I see your tendency to mendacity has not diminshed.

I watched the ABC news, by the way.

ABC, News Ltd, whatever. Both are anti-ALP news sites these days, and in bed with the Coalition at state and Federal level.

You made a erroneous comment about a hearing that you clearly didn't watch. Sorry for highlighting the fact that your comment didn't align with reality, regardless of the news soundbite that you watched.

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews tells COVID-19 Hotel Quarantine Inquiry that Jenny Mikakos was responsible for scheme

Ellafan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:56 am You can't spin that as "News Ltd has their political scapegoat". I gave you the link to the part of the hearing where Andrews dumped the bucket on Mikakos.

She was sacrificed by the party to save Dan Andrews. She took one for the team. I predict a bright future as a judge in the Victorian court system.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:02 am

Ellafan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:56 am You can't spin that as "News Ltd has their political scapegoat". I gave you the link to the part of the hearing where Andrews dumped the bucket on Mikakos.

She was sacrificed by the party to save Dan Andrews. She took one for the team. I predict a bright future as a judge in the Victorian court system.

He didn't dump the bucket on Mikakos. He calmly and factually expained that as Health Minister, she had overall responsibility for the hotel quarantine. That seems fair and reasonable to me.

Anyway, conservatives have their scapegoat. Australia has been one of the most successful nations in controlling the spread of covid-19, but a state health minister has resigned because of the relentless pressure from our media for someone to be responsible for any covid-19 deaths. Imagine if ministers in the UK, USA and elsewhere were held to such a lofty standard?

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:09 am There have been 782 deaths in Victoria.
53 in NSW.

I don’t know how many people have to die before you think it’s appropriate but she’s not a scapegoat. She’s the Health Minister of Victoria and she failed in her role - hundreds of deaths were clearly avoidable (using NSW as comparison).

I actually think Andrews should step down as well - given the scale of failure in Victoria- but believe it appropriate he stays focused on resolving issues in Melbourne before leaving his role.

What happens in other counties is irrelevant. Australia should not be afraid to have high standards of accountability, nor doing the right thing.

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:21 am 1. Yes
2. Overseas country’s should set their own standards. Don’t be afraid to have high standards. Victoria government has made mistakes, failed the people of that state, and hurt Australia more broadly. I think the government of Victoria should be accountable for that failure yes.

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:47 am As I said above, no I don’t think so.

55 is a horrible number but given the overall situation, population , and duty of care and consideration shown to the citizens of NSW and Aus I think Gladys has done a good job.

Happy if on review two areas where mistakes occurred - Rugby P and old age homes - is explored further to see if the relevant Minister (state or Federal) should be held to account.

You’ve got such a hard on for the politics you’ve lost sight that over 700 people have died in Victoria. A number directly following mistakes by the Vic government. Not sure on which planet there should not be accountability for this..

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:51 am

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:47 am As I said above, no I don’t think so.

55 is a horrible number but given the overall situation, population , and duty of care and consideration shown to the citizens of NSW and Aus I think Gladys has done a good job.

Happy if on review two areas where mistakes occurred - Rugby P and old age homes - is explored further to see if the relevant Minister (state or Federal) should be held to account.

You’ve got such a hard on for the politics you’ve lost sight that over 700 people have died in Victoria. A number directly following mistakes by the Vic government. Not sure on which planet there should not be accountability for this..

The Federal govt funds and regulates aged care nationally. I agree that PM Scott Morrison and Aged Care Minister Richard Collbeck should be held accountable tor the deaths in aged care, which account for over 75% of the total deaths in Victoria.

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:00 am Over 95% of care home deaths were in Federally funded and audited homes.

For Profit industries that had their hands deep in the money.

If anyone should be vilified, it's the owners and the Federal politicians.

Small mistakes were made that led to a massive, community-spread infection that wasn't foreseen

Andrews has done ok with a shitty stick handed to him

Farva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:09 am Kiwi Greg, meaning for a reasonable discussion not a politically charged one.

My understanding is that border control is a federally managed thing (managed by border force) that was pushed on to the states.
The failure of the quarantine process was that the companies hired to do the work pushed it down through subcontractor after subcontractor and did not implement the process correctly. There was then poor oversight. This is reinforced by the class action being launched is pursuing the private security companies and not the government.
The failure on the governments behalf was down to poor oversight. They didn’t hold the security company to account. That is why the health minister has lost her job.
I can appreciate that you are calling for Dan Andrews head as he is the premier and so like CEOs is responsible.
Why are you stopping at Dan Andrews? Why not Peter Dutton (who is head if Border Force who is ultimately responsible for quarantine and also failed with the Ruby Princess issue). Or Scott Morrison who is ultimately responsible in the way Dan Andrews is?

Farva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:11 am To be fair, I don’t think Scott Morrison or Peter Dutton should be called to resign. I also don’t think Daniel Andrews should either. And to be honest I don’t think the health minister should have.
The processes they put in place were reasonable - a number states implemented it - but rushed. The rushed is why mistakes were made. They have reacted well however once the issue was spotted.
I should also add, the failure with the Ruby Princess was arguably worse. They didn’t have any process in place, eel whereas Vic did. Both lead to deaths (I appreciate Vic had an order of magnitude more, but any death from mistakes is unacceptable). Should Gladys resign too?
For me, I also don’t think she should. There was a mistake made, people died, but like in Vic it is something new and they acted in what they thought was best for the country.

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:42 am

Farva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:09 am Kiwi Greg, meaning for a reasonable discussion not a politically charged one.

My understanding is that border control is a federally managed thing (managed by border force) that was pushed on to the states.
The failure of the quarantine process was that the companies hired to do the work pushed it down through subcontractor after subcontractor and did not implement the process correctly. There was then poor oversight. This is reinforced by the class action being launched is pursuing the private security companies and not the government.
The failure on the governments behalf was down to poor oversight. They didn’t hold the security company to account. That is why the health minister has lost her job.
I can appreciate that you are calling for Dan Andrews head as he is the premier and so like CEOs is responsible.
Why are you stopping at Dan Andrews? Why not Peter Dutton (who is head if Border Force who is ultimately responsible for quarantine and also failed with the Ruby Princess issue). Or Scott Morrison who is ultimately responsible in the way Dan Andrews is?

Agree the oversight.

I don’t believe borders were responsible- hence not Dutton for this. He’s cock of the highest order but quarantine wasn’t with him (which from a humanitarian point of view is probably good). In the Ruby P I’d need to go back there and look at the outcome - I thought there were failures there but did not believe they were in leadership.

ScoMo is not responsible for Andrews - not by law - hence some of the issues we have. But he is accountable overall and I think overall Aus has done a good job. Victoria is the exception and has not.

The Australian Customs and Border Protection Service’s (Customs) functions include management of border controls at air and sea ports; land-based surveillance of Australia’s coastline, seaports and waterfront; and surveillance, patrol and response in Australia’s maritime domain (through Border Protection Command (BPC)).

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:39 am Farva - just ran a few google searches and nothing clear.

If Federal who from Federal was at quarantine hearing (I looked but couldn’t find) - if Federal they should be accountable.
If federal and they did a two step and on passed then it on then state should be accountable.

I appreciate it is unprecedented - but, and this is kind to Victoria, assuming an equal problem all other states and territories managed it. Victoria did not. And over 700 people died. I would argue that Victoria failed to take reasonable steps (given the actions of others).

I still believe that people should be accountable here. For me including Andrews, but if they find ScoMo was at direct fault all the way to him (I don’t think in totally he should go given the strength of Austalia’s response excluding Vic).

Please note - the Vic health minister hasn’t even lost her job (she’s an Mp first and foremost), she stood down from the post of Health Minister.

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:38 am

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:00 am Over 95% of care home deaths were in Federally funded and audited homes.

For Profit industries that had their hands deep in the money.

If anyone should be vilified, it's the owners and the Federal politicians.

Small mistakes were made that led to a massive, community-spread infection that wasn't foreseen

Andrews has done ok with a shitty stick handed to him

As above happy on the aged care review.

On the shitty stick handed to Andrews what do you think it was?
He and his government made choices and failed to have the necessary oversight of those - they cause their own issues.

All the premiers has the same shitty stick - they have all achieve significantly better outcomes.

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:57 am She will have to now make do as a highly experienced and successful lawyer.

Farva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:24 am Oh, I thought she resigned, was it just as health minister?

As best I can figure, the bio security act - https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... eclaration - which is managed by the health minister (so Greg Hunt not Dutton) is responsible.

The feds appear to have pushed this on to the states. Victoria has then pushed it on to the private sector. If we are chasing Andrews for a lack of oversight then we should also chase Hunt and even Scotty from Marketing for their lack of oversight. If the feds are going to pass the responsibility then they need to put in place processes to make sure the states are doing their job. Ultimately it is the feds that are responsible so they need to manage it. This is akin to company directors being responsible for things they have no direct involvement in - the VW emissions scandal is the first example that comes to my mind.
Of course that doesn’t let the Vics off the hook. They needed to provide oversight for what they are doing. And the private companies are the ones who are the most at fault.

As for none of the other states failing, I don’t agree. I gave the example of the Ruby Princess earlier and I’ll go back to that one. NSW failed to adequately quarantine 2000 people who were let back into the community, some 500 had the virus and 22 died directly and I don’t know how many indirectly.

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:53 am

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:38 am

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:00 am Over 95% of care home deaths were in Federally funded and audited homes.

For Profit industries that had their hands deep in the money.

If anyone should be vilified, it's the owners and the Federal politicians.

Small mistakes were made that led to a massive, community-spread infection that wasn't foreseen

Andrews has done ok with a shitty stick handed to him

As above happy on the aged care review.

On the shitty stick handed to Andrews what do you think it was?
He and his government made choices and failed to have the necessary oversight of those - they cause their own issues.

All the premiers has the same shitty stick - they have all achieve significantly better outcomes.

We're not going to agree on this.

You seem to have a hard-on for accountability, but only for Andrews

Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:25 am

kiwigreg369 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:21 am 1. Yes
2. Overseas country’s should set their own standards. Don’t be afraid to have high standards. Victoria government has made mistakes, failed the people of that state, and hurt Australia more broadly. I think the government of Victoria should be accountable for that failure yes.

QLD has had 6 deaths. In contrast NSW, with 55 deaths, has been the Killing Fields. Gladys should be held accountable?

Farva wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:20 am In all of this, I think it very important to consider that what is happening is completely unprecedented. There is no basis or playbook to fall back to, to know what does and does not work.
As such, Im quite inclined to cut some slack to the decisions made by our leaders, as long as they are based on expert advice and were done with the national interest at heart. In that I think that the decision to employ private security guards is not the gotcha that it seems to be made out to be. I also think that the Andrew's government might have not paid as much attention to the hotel quarantine when they had that in place, thinking it resolved, and turned their focus to something else. No doubt that is the wrong decision but in the circumstances, an understandable one. Some decisions were no doubt the wrong decision, but like allowing people to leave the Ruby Princess, its a decision made in a tough environment with multiple significant threats showing up. I am sure if Andrews or Berejiklian were to make the decision again would probably would have done something differently.
Where I think we do need to draw the line is when negligence comes in to play. Did someone not do something out of laziness, or out of self interest? If so, then throw the book at that person. I don't know if we have had any demonstration of that yet. To be honest, I agree that accountability is vital, but again, in this scenario of competing priorities that each are unprecedented, completely unknown and whatever decision was made would have massive consequences I am less critical. I can see the parallels to the Rio call, but Rio had years to assess that decision and entered in to the decision knowing the consequences. It was greed. Its the same as the VW diesel issue. In both instances I am far less patience. If the Andrews Govt had years to perfect this response then I would have less sympathy for them too.
I'm interested in hearing the outcome of the review before making decisions on who is at fault. A hearing s vital as we need to know what we did wrong so next time we have a better response. But I am less interested in (e)scapegoats unless someone was genuinely negligent or knowingly acted to further themselves at the cost of society (incidentally, I am pretty sure that is what Tim Smith for instance is actually doing at the moment).

guy smiley wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:58 am I think it’s symptomatic of how we as society view the world that blame is being sought here... a target is desired to absolve the frustration and anger on.

Individuals have made decisions under extreme pressure with no prior knowledge of the situation they’re faced with. Those who disagree for any number of reasons now seem to want to make someone pay for their discomfort. I think the issue is much wider than individual decision making and lies in the way we’ve allowed society to structure itself.

Poorly trained and equipped security was appointed in Victoria because that’s what the economic model prescribed. Minimum cost labour providing the minimal degree of service to maximise profit. Outsourcing is the name of the game for governments... reduce your staffing levels, reduce your superficial spending and pass on both extra costs and most crucially, responsibility to the user. So you have the Victorian police force saying early on that they couldn’t take on the task of managing security... inference is staffing and resources can’t bear it. Federal government likewise outsource responsibilities to State level partially due to legislated division of powers and partly due to political philosophies and the wish to manoeuvre for advantage.

So we live within a social system that drives down the quality of service provision in the name of economic success and we are blinded to the failure of logic inherent in that system until something like COVID-19 rolls along and takes us right out of our comfort zones and reveals our system to be inadequate. We’re not questioning that. We’re stuck in a loop of blame and denial. Talk of accountability is really only a symptom of that dynamic. No one is accountable because outsourcing conveniently obscures responsibilities at various levels of decision making.

We don’t have a governmental structure that could come close to contemplating a shift in this overall dynamic... so we’ll bumble along through this and in all likelihood repeat the same series of mistakes again before the next pandemic rolls around... and it will. The manner in which we are degrading our physical environment and the rate with which we are doing that suggests cross species transmission of virus will be more likely to occur again, not less.

We’ll just continue to pursue a business as usual policy with profit and shareholder dividend thinking ruling the day when what we really could be doing is looking at better resourcing for community services like, for a very obvious example, aged care. Or health. Or education. Or a meaningful minimum wage and protection structure that encourages people to stay home when ill instead of feeling forced to go to work for fear of economic catastrophe.

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:41 am I too fond it ironic that the loudest voices for "Blame" are those would most likely live, and vote in LNP heartlands.

Those responsible for the McJob culture that is the root of so many of our issues (and not just Covid).

But that's ok, they are doing alright

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:41 am I too fond it ironic that the loudest voices for "Blame" are those would most likely live, and vote in LNP heartlands.

Those responsible for the McJob culture that is the root of so many of our issues (and not just Covid).

But that's ok, they are doing alright

Slim 293 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:24 am

Pat the Ex Mat wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:41 am I too fond it ironic that the loudest voices for "Blame" are those would most likely live, and vote in LNP heartlands.

Those responsible for the McJob culture that is the root of so many of our issues (and not just Covid).

But that's ok, they are doing alright

It's just like Chris Lucas, and all of the other large CBD restaurant moguls and all their heavy financial backers and their connections to the LNP, who all systematically underpaid their staff for years and years and then cried foul at the prospect of having to compensate them...

And now they're pretending to be the champion of the workers, lobbying to have the hospital sector reopen sooner for the financial and mental well being of the same staff they refused to provide a minimum wage for.