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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:08 pm 
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TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
brat wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
Really, to imagine the Greens being in a government with National is fantasy stuff. Hooton and his type always brings this up before every election in the hope of driving a wedge between the Greens and Labour if not directly then in the eyes of the voting public.

Without even getting into the Greens developing social policy, National's very existence is to provide the conditions for Fed Farmers and the dairy industry to make maximum profit no matter the environmental cost. How to you think the Greens would work within that framework? The idea that the Greens would get policy concessions at the expense of farmers is ridiculous.

I can see why National voters get upset by the idea the Greens might develop social policy alongside their core mission of environmental responsibility and move to renewable energy. Another voice on the socially conscious left is too much to bear for some.

As for the Greens achieving nothing in opposition - that's a fallacy. The National Party constantly steals watered down policy from both Labour and the Greens when they think they lose support if they don't. Compulsory insulation for rentals is once such instance and guess what, it's a social policy. Even today Bling and Conehead announced a $600m Auckland infrastructure fund which has been Labour policy since 2015.

Also, Morgan won't get 1.5%. Ironically more than ACT and UF combined in 2014.


Big difference between social conscious and stupidity.. something the greens don't have a grasp of..

Like increasing welfare payments by 20% , scraping obligations and having no issue with long term beneficiaries -yep that's really going to incentivise people into employment
You'll have to point me to where it says they'll scrap obligations and that they don't have an issue with long term beneficiaries.

I think that absolutely mental policy was lost in the fog of MT admitting fraud and blaming it on being much better off than my parents.


Have you compared her story about her upbringing a week or so ago to her earlier story? Even by the lowly standards you'd expect of a politician she's a pathological liar.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:40 pm 
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brat wrote:
I'm sorry but the greens to me are potentially the most damaging of all the parties.. luckily they'll probably be in opposition again

Yup and that's the point. The Greens are harmless because they're impotent because they'll never be in government.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:18 pm 
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A Labour|Green coalition government is a very real possibility at some point soon. The pragmatism, if that's what people terrified of the Greens think they are lacking, will come from Labour.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Location: End of the road, turn right and first house on the left
I think National's main direction of "let's support big business and they will employ the slaves" isn't working now as the slaves are cheaper elsewhere (even the farmers can bring them in from Asia and house them in a toolshed).

We need someone in Government with a heart (unfortunately they also have to have a bit of steel and it is impossible to have both in this country)

Image although I think this graph is total bullshit but I got it from the internet so ...


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:50 pm 
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That graph suggests there is about 40000 homeless in NZ. Seems legit :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:54 pm 
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No it doesn't...


more like 45,000 to 50,000. Hence my disbelief as well...


but I reckon they count all the useless f**king sons out there who haven't left home yet at aged thirty-fucking-five :x :x :x :x :x


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:09 pm 
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They're basically counting anyone with no permanent housing which includes all those the government is paying for emergency housing for and all those who might be sharing a home by living in a garage etc
I wonder if Mexico are using the same definition of "substandard" housing as NZ, waddya reckon?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I would count all those who would like to be able to have their own accommodation but cannot. Not going to bring in the standard of that accommodation as I am not a Mexican so will just use Kiwi standards in a Kiwi politics thread

(You should stand for politics with a sidestep like that)


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:27 pm 
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That kind of broad interpretation of what homelessness is is precisely why NZ ranked 1st in that study


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:28 pm 
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I think the best way is to ask the person whether they consider themselves homeless, rather than a politician or a political supporter.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Successive NZ governments - National & Labour - fell asleep at the wheel when it comes to this nation's housing shortage.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:53 pm 
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harvey wilson wrote:
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
Its a shame the greens aren't an actual greens party but a collection of people who think like Grouch and once every three years pretend to care about global warming and dirty rivers. I'd vote for them if they were.

It's an interesting point. There's deffo room for an actual environment party who like the Maori Party will support any government as long as they get some policy concessions. At the moment people with an environmental interest have nowhere to vote - it's certainly not the Green Party as they refuse to work with National so have nil bargaining power with Labour.

Matthew Hooton made an interesting point on National Radio this week - that National would rather have The Greens than Winston and The Greens therefore could get substantial concessions from them e.g. around clean waterways, irrigation, fisheries, agriculture into the carbon trading scheme, etc. But The Greens will almost certainly refuse to even discuss it and will instead spend another three years achieving nothing but self-satisfied circle-jerking.


I wonder if they had someone more pragmatic like Rod Donald whether they would have been able to do what Hooten suggested? I don't think many people are fooled by the name anymore, this is closer to Jim Andertons various parties than any sort of environmental activist party.

I'm sure the TOP is going to swallow some of their votes , without winning any seats.


They do have someone more pragmatic than Rod Donald, who hasn't been the leader for years. If you're going to continuously post about the greens you might want to learn a bit about them first.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:37 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
I would count all those who would like to be able to have their own accommodation but cannot. Not going to bring in the standard of that accommodation as I am not a Mexican so will just use Kiwi standards in a Kiwi politics thread

(You should stand for politics with a sidestep like that)


While I agree with the sentiment about setting ourselves high standards, an international comparison is meaningless if it doesn't measure and define homelessness the same way for each country.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:25 am 
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What we do learn from the graph though is that having no official strategy leads to less of the associated issue.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:28 am 
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/951181 ... n-auckland

Quote:
Drug users must take responsibility after synthetic cannabis deaths - PM


http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/ ... hs-pm.html

I.e. according to English it's their own fault they died.

I don't get why The Greens and TOP aren't going harder on this. It's reasonably arguable that the government is causing these deaths because drug supply is in the hands of criminals and basically the victims are drinking bathtub gin instead of craft beer.

And more generally I don't get why the opposition inc. Labour are giving English a free pass on his massively conservative social / religious positions, they're well outside the middle ground - opposition to even medical marijuana, anti-abortion, practicing christian, anti-assisted dying, and so on. His wife's a complete religious nutjob and on the record for some ugly positions. He's got a weakness there, don't know why they're not going after it.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:42 am 
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Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:00 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

Yeah but Bill's the leader and if he takes hits so does National. There's not a lot of weakness there, I think it'd be worth a poke, see what the reaction is.

I think Turei's played it pretty well, abeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:05 am 
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harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
TOP will likely eat into the greens vote and maybe ACT if he gets enough votes to oust them in Epsom.

Its a shame the greens aren't an actual greens party but a collection of people who think like Grouch and once every three years pretend to care about global warming and dirty rivers. I'd vote for them if they were.


News to me , I'd like to know more about these like-minded folk .

If you're correct , I may consider voting for them for the first time ever.


Hard left people like you on the fringe of politics. You appear to believe the current National government are fascists , if you were going to find anyone who'd agree with you on that you'd most likely find them in the supporters of the Green Party.

For the benefit of those who haven't reached the conclusion National are fascist can you elaborate on how you came to think that way?


Because of their Legislative program;

Prison privatisation
Mass Surveillance- introduced progressively after illegal surveillance on NZers , for very dubiouss reasons
Modification of the Crimes Act, Evidence Act , Quantum expansion of Warrantless search powers for police
Reduction of the top tax rate and subsequent borrowing to fund the tax deficit , making the taxation take more regressive by increasing GST
Bleeding "Housingcorp" dry to necessitate the sale of "assets" leading directly to the highest homeless rate in the world.
Totally f**king up the recovery & re-construction of ChCh by implementing classic disaster capitalism.
Repealing marginally workable emissions legislation with absolute trash that rewards the largest polluters and enshrines the fiscal responsibilty of inaction onto the taxpayer, not the polluter.
Committing combat troops to the disasters caused by the US and their fascist inspired state terrorism.

etc , etc, etc,etc .................................
this is good place to research NZ fascism in it's entirety
http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11685355

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... -admitted/


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:13 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

What is National's position on legalizing any sort of drugs at the moment? And how reflective is it do you think of the population as a whole?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:14 am 
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TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

Yeah but Bill's the leader and if he takes hits so does National. There's not a lot of weakness there, I think it'd be worth a poke, see what the reaction is.

I think Turei's played it pretty well, albeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


:lol:
The Dirty Tricks machine must have sworn ,as one ,everlasting devotion to Beelzebub when that one turned up.

Managed to get the stench of Todd Barclay off primetime and diffuse the massively the imminent slaughter of Paula Bennett [ Deputy PM] for the same crime.

WRT Winston & Turei , i'd wager he, and his party are a lot more comfortable with her than the likes of Joyce, Bennett and Judith Collins.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:17 am 
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Flockwitt wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

What is National's position on legalizing any sort of drugs at the moment? And how reflective is it do you think of the population as a whole?


Bill "Double Dipton" English - " Drugs are illegal for a reason and they're going to stay that way ."


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am 
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grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
TOP will likely eat into the greens vote and maybe ACT if he gets enough votes to oust them in Epsom.

Its a shame the greens aren't an actual greens party but a collection of people who think like Grouch and once every three years pretend to care about global warming and dirty rivers. I'd vote for them if they were.


News to me , I'd like to know more about these like-minded folk .

If you're correct , I may consider voting for them for the first time ever.


Hard left people like you on the fringe of politics. You appear to believe the current National government are fascists , if you were going to find anyone who'd agree with you on that you'd most likely find them in the supporters of the Green Party.

For the benefit of those who haven't reached the conclusion National are fascist can you elaborate on how you came to think that way?


Because of their Legislative program;

Prison privatisation
Mass Surveillance- introduced progressively after illegal surveillance on NZers , for very dubiouss reasons
Modification of the Crimes Act, Evidence Act , Quantum expansion of Warrantless search powers for police
Reduction of the top tax rate and subsequent borrowing to fund the tax deficit , making the taxation take more regressive by increasing GST
Bleeding "Housingcorp" dry to necessitate the sale of "assets" leading directly to the highest homeless rate in the world.
Totally f**king up the recovery & re-construction of ChCh by implementing classic disaster capitalism.
Repealing marginally workable emissions legislation with absolute trash that rewards the largest polluters and enshrines the fiscal responsibilty of inaction onto the taxpayer, not the polluter.
Committing combat troops to the disasters caused by the US and their fascist inspired state terrorism.

etc , etc, etc,etc .................................
this is good place to research NZ fascism in it's entirety
http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11685355

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... -admitted/


I doubt you'll change your opinion on whether or not they are fascist but you're a very long way from having any sort of real evidence to suggest they are . They are to the left of the conservatives in the UK and the coalition in Australia and to the democrats in the US , its the reach of the century to suggest that New Zealand is living under a fascist government.

Like i said you won't change you're opinion and you'll keep repeating this but bear in mind how its affects your credibility and that you look more than a little ridiculous trying to peddle this nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:23 am 
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grouch wrote:
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

Yeah but Bill's the leader and if he takes hits so does National. There's not a lot of weakness there, I think it'd be worth a poke, see what the reaction is.

I think Turei's played it pretty well, albeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


:lol:
The Dirty Tricks machine must have sworn ,as one ,everlasting devotion to Beelzebub when that one turned up.

Managed to get the stench of Todd Barclay off primetime and diffuse the massively the imminent slaughter of Paula Bennett [ Deputy PM] for the same crime.

WRT Winston & Turei , i'd wager he, and his party are a lot more comfortable with her than the likes of Joyce, Bennett and Judith Collins.


You couldn't be more wrong

Winston hates the greens more than anyone else

Not sure what to make of the waffle preceding that


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:24 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
I think National's main direction of "let's support big business and they will employ the slaves" isn't working now as the slaves are cheaper elsewhere (even the farmers can bring them in from Asia and house them in a toolshed).




Fvck off Enz . You have turned into a sad toxic parody ... why try to be the biggest cvnt ?
This place is full of them


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:06 pm 
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brat wrote:
grouch wrote:
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

Yeah but Bill's the leader and if he takes hits so does National. There's not a lot of weakness there, I think it'd be worth a poke, see what the reaction is.

I think Turei's played it pretty well, albeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


:lol:
The Dirty Tricks machine must have sworn ,as one ,everlasting devotion to Beelzebub when that one turned up.

Managed to get the stench of Todd Barclay off primetime and diffuse the massively the imminent slaughter of Paula Bennett [ Deputy PM] for the same crime.

WRT Winston & Turei , i'd wager he, and his party are a lot more comfortable with her than the likes of Joyce, Bennett and Judith Collins.


You couldn't be more wrong

Winston hates the greens more than anyone else

Not sure what to make of the waffle preceding that


Urban Myth :nod:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=winston+peters+%26+merita+turei&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj497bz5abVAhWHTrwKHZEuDNEQ_AUICigB&biw=1440&bih=683#imgrc=2BBLTqcIX6Vq8M:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:08 pm 
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harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
TOP will likely eat into the greens vote and maybe ACT if he gets enough votes to oust them in Epsom.

Its a shame the greens aren't an actual greens party but a collection of people who think like Grouch and once every three years pretend to care about global warming and dirty rivers. I'd vote for them if they were.


News to me , I'd like to know more about these like-minded folk .

If you're correct , I may consider voting for them for the first time ever.


Hard left people like you on the fringe of politics. You appear to believe the current National government are fascists , if you were going to find anyone who'd agree with you on that you'd most likely find them in the supporters of the Green Party.

For the benefit of those who haven't reached the conclusion National are fascist can you elaborate on how you came to think that way?


Because of their Legislative program;

Prison privatisation
Mass Surveillance- introduced progressively after illegal surveillance on NZers , for very dubiouss reasons
Modification of the Crimes Act, Evidence Act , Quantum expansion of Warrantless search powers for police
Reduction of the top tax rate and subsequent borrowing to fund the tax deficit , making the taxation take more regressive by increasing GST
Bleeding "Housingcorp" dry to necessitate the sale of "assets" leading directly to the highest homeless rate in the world.
Totally f**king up the recovery & re-construction of ChCh by implementing classic disaster capitalism.
Repealing marginally workable emissions legislation with absolute trash that rewards the largest polluters and enshrines the fiscal responsibilty of inaction onto the taxpayer, not the polluter.
Committing combat troops to the disasters caused by the US and their fascist inspired state terrorism.

etc , etc, etc,etc .................................
this is good place to research NZ fascism in it's entirety
http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11685355

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... -admitted/


I doubt you'll change your opinion on whether or not they are fascist but you're a very long way from having any sort of real evidence to suggest they are . They are to the left of the conservatives in the UK and the coalition in Australia and to the democrats in the US , its the reach of the century to suggest that New Zealand is living under a fascist government.

Like i said you won't change you're opinion and you'll keep repeating this but bear in mind how its affects your credibility and that you look more than a little ridiculous trying to peddle this nonsense.


Would you care to justify this opinion with some facts?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:10 pm 
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grouch wrote:
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
I think Turei's played it pretty well, albeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


:lol:
The Dirty Tricks machine must have sworn ,as one ,everlasting devotion to Beelzebub when that one turned up.

Managed to get the stench of Todd Barclay off primetime and diffuse the massively the imminent slaughter of Paula Bennett [ Deputy PM] for the same crime.

WRT Winston & Turei , i'd wager he, and his party are a lot more comfortable with her than the likes of Joyce, Bennett and Judith Collins.

Yeah I thought it stood out like dogs' balls that she didn't attack Turei, and in fact no senior National figure (other than proxies like DPF) have done so. But I think she's subsequently denied it which would be career-ending if she does get outed. Are there sources claiming she did cheat?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:27 pm 
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@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:34 pm 
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harvey wilson wrote:
@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.

I find No Right Turn pretty frustrating. The things he calls out are mostly right but he's hysterical and there's absolutely no sense of balance. It's like he's a furious 15 year old. Not sure he's ever been abroad, and pretty sure he's never seen an actual neo-liberal government in action.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:49 pm 
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grouch wrote:
brat wrote:
grouch wrote:
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bill's position is not national's position. I don't think there's as much to be made there as people think there is.

Besides, everyone is occupied with Turei at the moment and her benefit fraud. I think this could seriously hurt the greens, who have long sought a reputation for being more principled, honest, and transparent than other political parties. James Shaw will be seething.

Yeah but Bill's the leader and if he takes hits so does National. There's not a lot of weakness there, I think it'd be worth a poke, see what the reaction is.

I think Turei's played it pretty well, albeit in a narrow sense. She's polarised the electorate - the 80% that think she's a disgrace (inc. me) were never going to be Green voters, but she might have poached a few leftist Labour voters and a few non-voters. There are actually people out there that actually believe you should get welfare with no obligations. What she has done is made a Labour / Greens / NZ First government less likely - how can Winston put into government a woman that his core constituency will think is a bludger crim? Everything that's wrong with the swamp?


:lol:
The Dirty Tricks machine must have sworn ,as one ,everlasting devotion to Beelzebub when that one turned up.

Managed to get the stench of Todd Barclay off primetime and diffuse the massively the imminent slaughter of Paula Bennett [ Deputy PM] for the same crime.

WRT Winston & Turei , i'd wager he, and his party are a lot more comfortable with her than the likes of Joyce, Bennett and Judith Collins.


You couldn't be more wrong

Winston hates the greens more than anyone else

Not sure what to make of the waffle preceding that


Urban Myth :nod:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=winston+peters+%26+merita+turei&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj497bz5abVAhWHTrwKHZEuDNEQ_AUICigB&biw=1440&bih=683#imgrc=2BBLTqcIX6Vq8M:


Hilarious ..a photo..really scraping the barrel

Wrong again.. he's a friend of our family.has been for years..my parents are in the party..believe me he despises the greens


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:57 am 
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harvey wilson wrote:
@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.


I agree entirely , NRT is unashamedly biased , but no less so than the herald/stuff/tvnz .
He brings a perspective and information to the public arena that just isn't available elsewhere.
Where I can , I cross reference what he prints and we'd being doing a lot better as "an informed society" if more people did the same and questioned what our mainstream media puts out.

As I said above , the NACT legislative record is what marks them as " Fascist"/ neo-con .

The political and social context in which they operate is significantly different to UK /Aus/ US , as is the financial state they inherited when they gained power.
NZ was in a much better financial state in 2009 than the others who had been rorted massively by the Banksters.

In the case of Australia , the current regime is playing catch-up to re-structure into a position where global exploitation is as easy as it is here in NZ.
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world , the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:21 am 
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grouch wrote:
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world, the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .

Yeah but the country was actually bankrupt. Society was more equal but it was a lot, lot poorer. And I'm not sure that the state setting prices and wages is 'democratic', or at all desirable, or sustainable. Not wishing to channel DPF but Venezuela's the latest to try that and it's not going well.

Re 'Aussie corporates... own the economy', who are you meaning - the big four banks? Woolworths? Rio Tinto at Ti Wai Point? How do they 'own' the economy?

Agree re multiple sources of info. I think the maintstream here is pretty luvvie left me'self but we should all be taking different perspectives.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:46 am 
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Posts: 539
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.


I agree entirely , NRT is unashamedly biased , but no less so than the herald/stuff/tvnz .
He brings a perspective and information to the public arena that just isn't available elsewhere.
Where I can , I cross reference what he prints and we'd being doing a lot better as "an informed society" if more people did the same and questioned what our mainstream media puts out.

As I said above , the NACT legislative record is what marks them as " Fascist"/ neo-con .

The political and social context in which they operate is significantly different to UK /Aus/ US , as is the financial state they inherited when they gained power.
NZ was in a much better financial state in 2009 than the others who had been rorted massively by the Banksters.

In the case of Australia , the current regime is playing catch-up to re-structure into a position where global exploitation is as easy as it is here in NZ.
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world , the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .


I'm not sure why you think we were in such good shape economically in 2009 seeing as how we went into recession before the gfc in 2008. Also if you think we could have carried on the way we're going under Muldoons socialist regime ( wage and price freezes, tariffs and subsidies, huge taxes) without going the way of Greece and that we live in a fascist country I can only conclude you have a vague and nodding acquaintance with reality .

I sometimes read the Standard to see what the delusional are thinking and even the posters there don't consider National to be fascist . For a site that has pretences as being the voice of the left here it's an embarrassment., Lynn Prentice as well as apparently having appalling personal hygiene has ridiculously heavy handed moderation standards and the level of commentary in the articles is a childish joke.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:52 am 
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Posts: 539
TheDocForgotHisLogon wrote:
grouch wrote:
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world, the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .

Yeah but the country was actually bankrupt. Society was more equal but it was a lot, lot poorer. And I'm not sure that the state setting prices and wages is 'democratic', or at all desirable, or sustainable. Not wishing to channel DPF but Venezuela's the latest to try that and it's not going well.

Re 'Aussie corporates... own the economy', who are you meaning - the big four banks? Woolworths? Rio Tinto at Ti Wai Point? How do they 'own' the economy?

Agree re multiple sources of info. I think the maintstream here is pretty luvvie left me'self but we should all be taking different perspectives.


It's weird to see people saying the early 80s pre Lange was some sort of halcyon era for New Zealand .

Agree on our media , its pretty lightweight for the most part .


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:03 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
I think National's main direction of "let's support big business and they will employ the slaves" isn't working now as the slaves are cheaper elsewhere (even the farmers can bring them in from Asia and house them in a toolshed).

We need someone in Government with a heart (unfortunately they also have to have a bit of steel and it is impossible to have both in this country)

Image although I think this graph is total bullshit but I got it from the internet so ...

It's fake news. The chart is meant to be titled Hopeless.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:15 am 
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MungoMan wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
I think National's main direction of "let's support big business and they will employ the slaves" isn't working now as the slaves are cheaper elsewhere (even the farmers can bring them in from Asia and house them in a toolshed).

We need someone in Government with a heart (unfortunately they also have to have a bit of steel and it is impossible to have both in this country)

Image although I think this graph is total bullshit but I got it from the internet so ...

It's fake news. The chart is meant to be titled Hopeless.

Hopeless at driving?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:56 am 
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harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.


I agree entirely , NRT is unashamedly biased , but no less so than the herald/stuff/tvnz .
He brings a perspective and information to the public arena that just isn't available elsewhere.
Where I can , I cross reference what he prints and we'd being doing a lot better as "an informed society" if more people did the same and questioned what our mainstream media puts out.

As I said above , the NACT legislative record is what marks them as " Fascist"/ neo-con .

The political and social context in which they operate is significantly different to UK /Aus/ US , as is the financial state they inherited when they gained power.
NZ was in a much better financial state in 2009 than the others who had been rorted massively by the Banksters.

In the case of Australia , the current regime is playing catch-up to re-structure into a position where global exploitation is as easy as it is here in NZ.
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world , the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .


I'm not sure why you think we were in such good shape economically in 2009 seeing as how we went into recession before the gfc in 2008. Also if you think we could have carried on the way we're going under Muldoons socialist regime ( wage and price freezes, tariffs and subsidies, huge taxes) without going the way of Greece and that we live in a fascist country I can only conclude you have a vague and nodding acquaintance with reality .

I sometimes read the Standard to see what the delusional are thinking and even the posters there don't consider National to be fascist . For a site that has pretences as being the voice of the left here it's an embarrassment., Lynn Prentice as well as apparently having appalling personal hygiene has ridiculously heavy handed moderation standards and the level of commentary in the articles is a childish joke.


This https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/government-debt-to-gdp
should explain my assertion re 2009.

I'm not asserting that pre-Douglas things were particularly rosy and something I yearn for .

But the neo-liberal "revolution" has proved to be a complete failure , globally, and the consequences of the rejection of it's basic precepts in all corners of the globe, is a rising tide.

Those that formulated and implemented this failed 19th century philosophy[aka the "fascists"] have benefitted enormously and realise that the old saying ......."but you can't fool all the people ,all the time" is a cold fact but they aren't going to let the masses dictate to them again hence the creeping fascist law imposition under the guise of anti-terrorism and "Free Trade".
None of which actually has any relevance to a peaceful and resource rich country like ours.
Hence my intense dislike of the current regime.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:52 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:46 am
Posts: 539
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
grouch wrote:
harvey wilson wrote:
@ Grouch

You think they are to the right of those parties as well as fascist? The party that increased benefits last year while the aussies and poms are either talking cutting or are cutting theirs? I'll admit its a little hard to compare the democrats to any New Zealand party but take the stance on health care for a start.

This idea that they are fascist is very silly as is quoting No Right Turn as a reference, you might as well have cited The Standard or Whaleoil which are similarly biased in their own politics.


I agree entirely , NRT is unashamedly biased , but no less so than the herald/stuff/tvnz .
He brings a perspective and information to the public arena that just isn't available elsewhere.
Where I can , I cross reference what he prints and we'd being doing a lot better as "an informed society" if more people did the same and questioned what our mainstream media puts out.

As I said above , the NACT legislative record is what marks them as " Fascist"/ neo-con .

The political and social context in which they operate is significantly different to UK /Aus/ US , as is the financial state they inherited when they gained power.
NZ was in a much better financial state in 2009 than the others who had been rorted massively by the Banksters.

In the case of Australia , the current regime is playing catch-up to re-structure into a position where global exploitation is as easy as it is here in NZ.
We lurched radically to the Right in the '80's from possibly the most pronounced Social democracy in the world , the Aussie corporates who essentially own the NZ economy are big fans of small government .


I'm not sure why you think we were in such good shape economically in 2009 seeing as how we went into recession before the gfc in 2008. Also if you think we could have carried on the way we're going under Muldoons socialist regime ( wage and price freezes, tariffs and subsidies, huge taxes) without going the way of Greece and that we live in a fascist country I can only conclude you have a vague and nodding acquaintance with reality .

I sometimes read the Standard to see what the delusional are thinking and even the posters there don't consider National to be fascist . For a site that has pretences as being the voice of the left here it's an embarrassment., Lynn Prentice as well as apparently having appalling personal hygiene has ridiculously heavy handed moderation standards and the level of commentary in the articles is a childish joke.


This https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/government-debt-to-gdp
should explain my assertion re 2009.

I'm not asserting that pre-Douglas things were particularly rosy and something I yearn for .

But the neo-liberal "revolution" has proved to be a complete failure , globally, and the consequences of the rejection of it's basic precepts in all corners of the globe, is a rising tide.

Those that formulated and implemented this failed 19th century philosophy[aka the "fascists"] have benefitted enormously and realise that the old saying ......."but you can't fool all the people ,all the time" is a cold fact but they aren't going to let the masses dictate to them again hence the creeping fascist law imposition under the guise of anti-terrorism and "Free Trade".
None of which actually has any relevance to a peaceful and resource rich country like ours.
Hence my intense dislike of the current regime.


Your feelings about National being fascist are similar to Silvers on vaccination.

We weren't looking particularly good in 2008 before the gfc.
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/ove ... 010/04.htm


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Location: Vandean Coast
grouch wrote:



You need to look at overall debt levels, both public and private, to get a better idea of how the country is going along. Looking at the public debt alone is both misleading and meaningless as it's such a small fraction of the country's overall debt. Here's a good place to start https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/external-debt


The apparent success of Clark and Cullen's Labour budgets are largely due to siphoning off of exploding private debt, via the tax system, that allowed them to keep the government books in the black while the country's debt as a whole more than doubled in the 9 years they were in power. Credit was cheap, NZ borrowed a shit load from overseas, and the taxes flowed into the govt coffers. GDP growth appeared to be good in the 2000s but it's linked to the private debt (and overall national debt) increasing by almost $130 billion in the 9 years Labour were in office.
Clark and Cullen stood back and let that happen, all the while crowing about how good they were at balancing the books. And now a similar thing is happening again the same people that hold Cullen up as a fiscal genius are blaming the government of today for causing NZ's debt problems even though it happened in the 2000s


The household debt-income ratio we have now is not that much higher than it was at the end of Labour's last term. The government took on a lot of debt in the aftermath of the GFC to ensure our economy rode it out with minimal damage and any economic analyst will tell you they were quite successful at that.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Posts: 539
I've noticed that in the last two or three elections labour/green supporters blame landlines for horrific poll results like this one. Every time the polls were right and the landline excuse was proven to be nonsense.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politi ... little-now


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