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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:36 am 
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Here's a brief history of MMP governments since 1996:

1996: The first MMP government was formed by National and NZ First. It took six weeks to negotiate and was a full coalition, with cabinet ministers from both parties. Winston Peters was Treasurer, a contrived position, and deputy prime minister. It fell apart after Jim Bolger was ousted as prime minister and replaced by Jenny Shipley, who lost the next election.

1999: Labour, under Helen Clark, formed a coalition with the Alliance but the two parties didn't command a majority in parliament. Clark needed the Greens, who had won seven seats. They agreed to a support arrangement which gave the government sufficient votes on confidence and supply to hold office. The Greens were not part of the government.

2002: National was trounced and Labour went into coalition with the Progressives, a splinter of the Alliance, which held two seats. But they were still short of a majority and Clark had the choice of three support partners - NZ First, the Greens and United Future. She negotiated a support agreement with United Future.

2005: National came back strongly but Labour again won more seats than its rival, 50 to National's 48. By now Clark was accustomed to running a minority government with the support of the smaller parties, and she negotiated agreements with NZ First, United Future and the Greens. Peters became Foreign Minister outside cabinet, and Peter Dunne Minister of Revenue, also outside cabinet. The Greens had no positions.

2008: National, now under John Key, won 58 seats against Labour's 43. Key decided to run a minority government with support agreements from ACT, United Future and later the Maori Party. It was more than he needed and broadened his government. Ministerial positions were given to minor parties but they were not in cabinet.

2011: Key was by now a popular prime minister and brought National back with an increased share of the party vote - 47.3 per cent which gave the party 59 seats. It was a simple matter for Key to again sign up the minor parties in support roles and the minority government was able to maintain its stability.

2014: Labour's turn to be trounced and on election night National held 61 seats, the first outright majority by a single party since MMP was introduced. But it lost a seat on special votes and Key was again running a minority government with support from his old allies ACT, United Future and the Maori Party. In November 2016 Key resigned and left parliament. Bill English was chosen by National's caucus to take over as prime minister.

2017: National, under English, won the most seats - 56 to Labour's 46. But Labour, with the Greens and NZ First, had enough seats for a majority. National could also hold a majority and stay in power, but not without NZ First. Winston Peters was again the kingmaker.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:46 am 
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:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:49 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
More importantly I think, more people voted for opposition parties than those that had formed the previous government.

It was hardly overwhelming though, and it rarely is. Does anyone know the largest majority in government since MMP began? I expect its tiny.


More importantly, how long will the combined bleating from people like Dark go on for and how can we harness that energy for the national grid?


We’ve got wind and gas already. It won’t be long now :nod:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:51 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


There hasn’t been a majority yet, though Key came super close.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:03 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:05 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
Here's a brief history of MMP governments since 1996:

1996: The first MMP government was formed by National and NZ First. It took six weeks to negotiate and was a full coalition, with cabinet ministers from both parties. Winston Peters was Treasurer, a contrived position, and deputy prime minister. It fell apart after Jim Bolger was ousted as prime minister and replaced by Jenny Shipley, who lost the next election.

1999: Labour, under Helen Clark, formed a coalition with the Alliance but the two parties didn't command a majority in parliament. Clark needed the Greens, who had won seven seats. They agreed to a support arrangement which gave the government sufficient votes on confidence and supply to hold office. The Greens were not part of the government.

2002: National was trounced and Labour went into coalition with the Progressives, a splinter of the Alliance, which held two seats. But they were still short of a majority and Clark had the choice of three support partners - NZ First, the Greens and United Future. She negotiated a support agreement with United Future.

2005: National came back strongly but Labour again won more seats than its rival, 50 to National's 48. By now Clark was accustomed to running a minority government with the support of the smaller parties, and she negotiated agreements with NZ First, United Future and the Greens. Peters became Foreign Minister outside cabinet, and Peter Dunne Minister of Revenue, also outside cabinet. The Greens had no positions.

2008: National, now under John Key, won 58 seats against Labour's 43. Key decided to run a minority government with support agreements from ACT, United Future and later the Maori Party. It was more than he needed and broadened his government. Ministerial positions were given to minor parties but they were not in cabinet.

2011: Key was by now a popular prime minister and brought National back with an increased share of the party vote - 47.3 per cent which gave the party 59 seats. It was a simple matter for Key to again sign up the minor parties in support roles and the minority government was able to maintain its stability.

2014: Labour's turn to be trounced and on election night National held 61 seats, the first outright majority by a single party since MMP was introduced. But it lost a seat on special votes and Key was again running a minority government with support from his old allies ACT, United Future and the Maori Party. In November 2016 Key resigned and left parliament. Bill English was chosen by National's caucus to take over as prime minister.

2017: National, under English, won the most seats - 56 to Labour's 46. But Labour, with the Greens and NZ First, had enough seats for a majority. National could also hold a majority and stay in power, but not without NZ First. Winston Peters was again the kingmaker.


Should probably be also pointed out that at the time of each of Keys elections national didn't need the Maori Party party for numbers and invited them in


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:23 am 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way


The same thing happened 22 years ago in 1996. Where you have you been?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way


The same thing happened 22 years ago in 1996. Where you have you been?


Not being old enough to care about politics 22 years ago


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:32 am 
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Dark wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Here's a brief history of MMP governments since 1996:

1996: The first MMP government was formed by National and NZ First. It took six weeks to negotiate and was a full coalition, with cabinet ministers from both parties. Winston Peters was Treasurer, a contrived position, and deputy prime minister. It fell apart after Jim Bolger was ousted as prime minister and replaced by Jenny Shipley, who lost the next election.

1999: Labour, under Helen Clark, formed a coalition with the Alliance but the two parties didn't command a majority in parliament. Clark needed the Greens, who had won seven seats. They agreed to a support arrangement which gave the government sufficient votes on confidence and supply to hold office. The Greens were not part of the government.

2002: National was trounced and Labour went into coalition with the Progressives, a splinter of the Alliance, which held two seats. But they were still short of a majority and Clark had the choice of three support partners - NZ First, the Greens and United Future. She negotiated a support agreement with United Future.

2005: National came back strongly but Labour again won more seats than its rival, 50 to National's 48. By now Clark was accustomed to running a minority government with the support of the smaller parties, and she negotiated agreements with NZ First, United Future and the Greens. Peters became Foreign Minister outside cabinet, and Peter Dunne Minister of Revenue, also outside cabinet. The Greens had no positions.

2008: National, now under John Key, won 58 seats against Labour's 43. Key decided to run a minority government with support agreements from ACT, United Future and later the Maori Party. It was more than he needed and broadened his government. Ministerial positions were given to minor parties but they were not in cabinet.

2011: Key was by now a popular prime minister and brought National back with an increased share of the party vote - 47.3 per cent which gave the party 59 seats. It was a simple matter for Key to again sign up the minor parties in support roles and the minority government was able to maintain its stability.

2014: Labour's turn to be trounced and on election night National held 61 seats, the first outright majority by a single party since MMP was introduced. But it lost a seat on special votes and Key was again running a minority government with support from his old allies ACT, United Future and the Maori Party. In November 2016 Key resigned and left parliament. Bill English was chosen by National's caucus to take over as prime minister.

2017: National, under English, won the most seats - 56 to Labour's 46. But Labour, with the Greens and NZ First, had enough seats for a majority. National could also hold a majority and stay in power, but not without NZ First. Winston Peters was again the kingmaker.


Should probably be also pointed out that at the time of each of Keys elections national didn't need the Maori Party party for numbers and invited them in

Yes I think they did that so that they could counterbalance the extreme views of ACT where required. National (and I suspect Key in particular) did not want to need ACT to pass legislation.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:40 am 
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dam0 wrote:
Dark wrote:
Should probably be also pointed out that at the time of each of Keys elections national didn't need the Maori Party party for numbers and invited them in

Yes I think they did that so that they could counterbalance the extreme views of ACT where required. National (and I suspect Key in particular) did not want to need ACT to pass legislation.


I thought it was a smart move by National. They acquired the Maori Party's support when the Nats did not need them, in order to acquire the Maori Party's support in the future when / if National did need them. Unfortunately for the Nats, the Maori vote took the Maori Party out of the equation, and threw their votes back at Labour. When 2017 came around, the Nats were alienated and had no allies. They only have themselves to blame for undermining NZF.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:04 am 
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Yeah it was smart for National but debatable for the Maori party. They got a few wins out of it, but at the cost of their existence.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:35 am 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way

You wouldn’t be bleating on about it page after page though - so that’s one positive if Winny went with the Nats.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:40 am 
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I actually think with the way our MMP is structured at the moment we'll see National be the largest most popular party and be in Opposition for many years to come. In the absence of a genuine centrist party to form a coalition with, they can't really get enough seats.

So until Winston retires or dies National will have to be content with what they've got.
The next leader of NZ First won't have anywhere near as much anti-National baggage


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:05 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way

You wouldn’t be bleating on about it page after page though - so that’s one positive if Winny went with the Nats.


I probably wouldn't

Mainly because if Winston had decided to make national our govt they wouldn't have tried to pretend it was some sort of huge move for change, which is utter pants.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:12 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


Yep. Although this is the first time the party with the most votes hasn't ended up in the driving seat so you can see why it might feel wrong to many. But that is MMP for you and it was bound to happen eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:25 am 
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Dark wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way

You wouldn’t be bleating on about it page after page though - so that’s one positive if Winny went with the Nats.


I probably wouldn't

Mainly because my team won.

Fixed


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:31 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I never said the result isnt fair or is wrong

I've just stated facts as they are with the current MMP system

One bloke who hardly anyone voted for picked our govt.

Would be the same if he went the other way

You wouldn’t be bleating on about it page after page though - so that’s one positive if Winny went with the Nats.


I probably wouldn't

Mainly because my team won.

Fixed


If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:00 am 
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Dark wrote:

If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national



Yeah you do, you just don't know it.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:12 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I think the key difference is that the party with the largest share of the vote formed the govt in those previous elections. This is the first time the party with clearly the largest share of the vote is not in govt.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:19 am 
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booji boy wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
:lol: :lol:

So it's nearly always delivered a minority government but this time around Dark doesn't like it?


I think the key difference is that the party with the largest share of the vote formed the govt in those previous elections. This is the first time the party with clearly the largest share of the vote is not in govt.


I understand the distinction but that's just being salty over the same underlying constant... that being we almost always end up with some form of minority government.

I think that's actually a good thing. it means they have to work at being a government, not just a ruling party.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:08 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:

If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national



Yeah you do, you just don't know it.


Not really

I just have never nailed myself to one party. Never actually understood people who do

Depends on the situation at the time and the policys

I've voted in the past for both Labour and National and others.

And locally it's different again


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:

If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national



Yeah you do, you just don't know it.


Not really

I just have never nailed myself to one party. Never actually understood people who do

Depends on the situation at the time and the policys

I've voted in the past for both Labour and National and others.

And locally it's different again

:lol: Next Mike Hoskings is going to claim he doesn't support National.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:35 pm 
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UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:

If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national



Yeah you do, you just don't know it.


Not really

I just have never nailed myself to one party. Never actually understood people who do

Depends on the situation at the time and the policys

I've voted in the past for both Labour and National and others.

And locally it's different again

:lol: Next Mike Hoskings is going to claim he doesn't support National.


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:37 pm 
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UncleFB wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:

If it makes you feel better

But then I don't support national



Yeah you do, you just don't know it.


Not really

I just have never nailed myself to one party. Never actually understood people who do

Depends on the situation at the time and the policys

I've voted in the past for both Labour and National and others.

And locally it's different again

:lol: Next Mike Hoskings is going to claim he doesn't support National.


:lol: :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:40 pm 
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You hear a lot of this from butt hurt Nat voters. That they don't support National and they take each election as it comes depending on the policies.

What a load of bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Thai guy wrote:
You hear a lot of this from butt hurt Nat voters. That they don't support National and they take each election as it comes depending on the policies.

What a load of bullshit.


All good

Don't really care what you think either way

Good luck with your "Labour for life. Cos me dad did!!!!"


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
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More crap. Every single thing you post here is as rigid as mine, but unlike you I don't pretend to be some centrist who changes his values every 5 minutes.

Be brave and own your ideology.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Thai guy wrote:
More crap. Every single thing you post here is as rigid as mine, but unlike you I don't pretend to be some centrist who changes his values every 5 minutes.

Be brave and own your ideology.


We don't live in the US

I'll pick an idealogy when the two main parties in NZ don't keep switching from center left to center right every other other year it suits them.

There is actually very little difference.between both


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Thai guy wrote:
Be brave and own your ideology.
be like water my friend


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:26 pm 
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Has anyone called Bridges on his trickle down comments? Or are we only looking for fuck-ups by Jacinda?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:30 pm 
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How about that idiot Bridges and his trickle down comments? Even dumber than Pullya Benefits comment about JA not doing any work. National is screwed with these two at the helm. Mind you, that might be part and parcel of the strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:12 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Has anyone called Bridges on his trickle down comments? Or are we only looking for fuck-ups by Jacinda?
There's still a massive number of mainstream journos shilling for the Nats and they are going very easy on Bridges in a way which was totally absent in their treatment of Goff, Cunliffe, and Little.

I think it's partly to do with access. For instance one of them, Stacey Kirk, has her nose so far up National's arse she struggles getting interviews with government people and in order to complete columns for her employer is forced to prop up the only people who will speak to her which is the opposition. She in particular is making a valiant attempt at legitimising Bridges' brain-farts.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:19 am 
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The inequality in Auckland has fudge all to do with incomes and everything to do with the cost of housing sucking away those incomes into the bank accounts of property owners.

Trickle down economics is widely misunderstood and the case in Auckland is something it cannot be applied to as investment in property does not create prosperity.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:30 am 
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deadduck wrote:
The inequality in Auckland has fudge all to do with incomes and everything to do with the cost of housing sucking away those incomes into the bank accounts of property owners.

Trickle down economics is widely misunderstood and the case in Auckland is something it cannot be applied to as investment in property does not create prosperity.


Sorry, are these two comments compatible?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:14 am 
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Until you own a property freehold, it generates next to no wealth. And even when it does, it only generates wealth for the owner and the providers of services they buy to maintain it (insurance companies etc). Still though, this wealth is just a transfer of money from the renters to the owners. The overall level of prosperity in the economy is the same. It's this sort of investment that drives inequality, because as the cost of the investment increases, the rent the owner demands must increase which means the tenants get ever poorer.

If instead the investment was in commercial property, or into a business, that would generate wealth for everyone involved. While the investor would still gain wealth, it would not be at the expense of the poorer end of the economy. The economy instead grows.

Over simplified I realise, economics always is, but the principle is clear and that is the key to trickle down economics - reduced taxation MUST be accompanied by increased investment in wealth generating sectors - otherwise it does not work. And that's why it doesn't really work to its full extent in reality, because people just tend to buy bigger houses or boats etc with the extra money.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:21 am 
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deadduck wrote:

Over simplified I realise, economics always is, but the principle is clear and that is the key to trickle down economics - reduced taxation MUST be accompanied by increased investment in wealth generating sectors - otherwise it does not work. And that's why it doesn't really work to its full extent in reality, because people just tend to buy bigger houses or boats etc with the extra money.


I don't believe trickle down works. There's enough stuff on it floating around Australia currently to convince me it's a fake theory. It's a handly label to justify boosting the wrong end of the economy.

What you seem to be outlining is the problem with the profit available to be made in housing and the only way to counter that, without costing the wider economy more in propping up the lower end, is to limit profit through either tax or some other mechanism.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:02 am 
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Trickle down only works if the ones at the top allow it.

Which kind of screws the whole concept up if the people at the top happen to be greedy.

Unless you have some entity overseeing it and controlling it there are too many things that can stop it. But you can't because that would be even worse for other reasons


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:00 am 
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Un-fecking-believable. Where are The Greens here? Did they not even think of writing this into their agreement with Labour? Why aren't they screaming from the rooftops? And will someone please set up an unaligned green party?

http://norightturn.blogspot.com.au/2018 ... ustry.html

Politically an opportunity for National to get a private members' bill in as a wedge issue for The Greens and Labour.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:10 am 
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The Nats are having a massive hissy-fit at the speaker of the house. Seems they don't like to be probed when one of them insults the Prime Minister and doesn't own up.

Welcome to opposition, Nats. It's hard, get used to it. :lol:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104155890/national-accuses-speaker-of-pushing-the-stupid-little-girl-story


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:14 am 
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I wonder how much is usually picked up on the tapes for the alleged comment not to be audible.


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