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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:40 am 
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booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:

I don't think paying a third of your income in tax is bugger all.

Latecomer to this discussion.

To be a pedant, it's not actually a third is it, it's only a third above $70K - it's probably only about 25% in real terms.

deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's clearly beneficial for those on a low income - unlike a top end tax cut.

Us evil lefties are all about the haves and the have nots benefiting.


Yeah but as I discovered last night in this discussion it's 30% from $48-$70k so no way it's only 25% in real terms. More like 30%.

At $90k it's 75% according to this website (obviously excluding Kiwisaver contributions) - over half the income is taxed at less than 20%. $70k is 78%.

*I assume the website is correct, I haven't done the maths myself.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:42 am 
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booji boy wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's a lot of 60" tellies people will buy for their kids bedrooms


The tax free threshold should be there so low income earners (students, part time workers etc) pay no tax but it should abate as you earn more income. I don't want or need my my first $10k to be tax free but it would be good for low income earners to receive it.



If that's the way it's going to work it would be better off as a claimable means tested rebate rather than part of the PAYE system


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:44 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:

I don't think paying a third of your income in tax is bugger all.

Latecomer to this discussion.

To be a pedant, it's not actually a third is it, it's only a third above $70K - it's probably only about 25% in real terms.

deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's clearly beneficial for those on a low income - unlike a top end tax cut.

Us evil lefties are all about the haves and the have nots benefiting.


Yeah but as I discovered last night in this discussion it's 30% from $48-$70k so no way it's only 25% in real terms. More like 30%.

At $90k it's 75% according to this website (obviously excluding Kiwisaver contributions) - over half the income is taxed at less than 20%. $70k is 78%.

*I assume the website is correct, I haven't done the maths myself.


75% and 78%? :?

Typo? You mean 25% and 28%?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:46 am 
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deadduck wrote:
booji boy wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's a lot of 60" tellies people will buy for their kids bedrooms


The tax free threshold should be there so low income earners (students, part time workers etc) pay no tax but it should abate as you earn more income. I don't want or need my my first $10k to be tax free but it would be good for low income earners to receive it.



If that's the way it's going to work it would be better off as a claimable means tested rebate rather than part of the PAYE system


Why would you want to tax them then force them to claim it back via a rebate?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:49 am 
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booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:

I don't think paying a third of your income in tax is bugger all.

Latecomer to this discussion.

To be a pedant, it's not actually a third is it, it's only a third above $70K - it's probably only about 25% in real terms.

deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's clearly beneficial for those on a low income - unlike a top end tax cut.

Us evil lefties are all about the haves and the have nots benefiting.


Yeah but as I discovered last night in this discussion it's 30% from $48-$70k so no way it's only 25% in real terms. More like 30%.

At $90k it's 75% according to this website (obviously excluding Kiwisaver contributions) - over half the income is taxed at less than 20%. $70k is 78%.

*I assume the website is correct, I haven't done the maths myself.


75% and 78%? :?

Typo? You mean 25% and 28%?

Yeah, the calculator does it the opposite way (take home pay).

Re: the tax free threshold, isn't it easier just to blanket it (like Oz) and then raise the rates at the higher end, rather than fluff around sorting out who does/doesn't receive it?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:50 am 
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booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
booji boy wrote:

I don't think paying a third of your income in tax is bugger all.

Latecomer to this discussion.

To be a pedant, it's not actually a third is it, it's only a third above $70K - it's probably only about 25% in real terms.

deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's clearly beneficial for those on a low income - unlike a top end tax cut.

Us evil lefties are all about the haves and the have nots benefiting.


Yeah but as I discovered last night in this discussion it's 30% from $48-$70k so no way it's only 25% in real terms. More like 30%.

At $90k it's 75% according to this website (obviously excluding Kiwisaver contributions) - over half the income is taxed at less than 20%. $70k is 78%.

*I assume the website is correct, I haven't done the maths myself.


75% and 78%? :?

Typo? You mean 25% and 28%?


I think he means you keep 75% of your income at 90k, and 78% at 70k. So total tax is 25% and 22% respectively.

*doesnt visit website just guesses instead.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:05 am 
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re: a rebate

I was speaking specifically to the method proposed where the tax free threshold diminishes as income scales up.

That seems like it would be massively complicated to get right in the PAYE system because individual income tax rates goes up and down all the time especially for waged workers close to bracket threshold changes. I reckon you'd either end up with a big bill you'd have to pay back ,or you'd get overtaxed throughout the year so you'd have to make a claim for it back.
If earners will have to claim a tax refund they may as well make it into a rebate to avoid the situation of some getting stung with a bill to the IRD.


If it's just a simple threshold, same for all incomes, then it doesn't need any special or complicated administration to get right.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:11 am 
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deadduck wrote:
re: a rebate

I was speaking specifically to the method proposed where the tax free threshold diminishes as income scales up.

That seems like it would be massively complicated to get right in the PAYE system because individual income tax rates goes up and down all the time especially for waged workers close to bracket threshold changes. I reckon you'd either end up with a big bill you'd have to pay back ,or you'd get overtaxed throughout the year so you'd have to make a claim for it back.
If earners will have to claim a tax refund they may as well make it into a rebate to avoid the situation of some getting stung with a bill to the IRD.


If it's just a simple threshold, same for all incomes, then it doesn't need any special or complicated administration to get right.



We had this conversation last year. A threshold such as Australia uses is simple... no one pays tax on the first 18K. Then you pay x percentage up to y amount etc etc through the brackets... so everyone pays the same tax per bracket and it’s only the top wedge of total income that attracts the high tax rate.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:16 am 
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I wonder, what’s the minimum wage these days? And what’s the living wage a lot of people are quite a fan of? Could the govt effectively provide the living wage through a tax free bracket? How does gross minimum wage compare to living wage net of tax?

Can anyone be bothered to calculate this? I’m guessing it’s not that easy, due to uncertain hours and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:21 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
I wonder, what’s the minimum wage these days? And what’s the living wage a lot of people are quite a fan of? Could the govt effectively provide the living wage through a tax free bracket? How does gross minimum wage compare to living wage net of tax?

Can anyone be bothered to calculate this? I’m guessing it’s not that easy, due to uncertain hours and the like.

Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020, so making that a tax free threshold makes a certain sense and would enrage some ardent Tory bastards who would see it as some sort of free hit.

So let’s do it :nod:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:26 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
Quote:
I agree with this. The first $10-15k should be tax free.


That'll be in the package for the next election - and you rich bastards will pay more at the top - and CGT


I think the term you are looking for is rich prick. ;)

Wait a minute what am I saying? Cullen was referring to multi millionaire John Key when he called him a rich prick. I'm nothing of the sort.

Please accept my apology Enz for being middle class and earning more than the minimum wage. :uhoh:



In 2 years I will be totally retired so pay those taxes to keep me in the manner that I am accustomed, please sir.

Quote:
What constitutes a rich bastard, give us a figure salary wise


Gidday Mugabe - you well?

Happy for the axe to fall on $100k+ wages and all investments and more than one property after the family home (CGT)


All good thanks, it’s interesting that you pick that figure because there was an article in one of either Stuff or the Herald saying that people earning $100k were struggling to make ends meet, I’ll try and dig it up

Here you go

Quote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11794078


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:04 am 
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jambanja wrote:
All good thanks, it’s interesting that you pick that figure because there was an article in one of either Stuff or the Herald saying that people earning $100k were struggling to make ends meet, I’ll try and dig it up

Here you go

Quote:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11794078


I shake my head at people who struggle financially despite earning a good amount as that.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:08 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 am 
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Don’t be too quick to judge Tehui. If you’re the single breadwinner for a family with 4+ children, that will go pretty quickly. A friend of mine is over 100k but has a large family and all the costs that entails. He’s doing ok and he certainly could drop some expenses but he’d never call himself rich and I’d agree with him. Bear in mind a single person on 100k earns less for their family than two parents on 50k each. I still think that’s wrong.

Personally, I think being rich has less to do with your income and more to do with your assets. The top 1% didn’t get there working 9-5 in high paying jobs. It’s all done through investments.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:16 am 
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Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.

The living wage is currently $20.55/hr
The minimum wage is about to go to $17.70 in April which is a big jump from where it is now, this is to try and get the minimum up to the current Govts promised target of $20 by 2021


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:18 am 
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jambanja wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.

The living wage is currently $20.55/hr
The minimum wage is about to go to $17.70 in April which is a big jump from where it is now, this is to try and get the minimum up to the current Govts promised target of $20 by 2021


I'm aware of that. A full-time living wage isn't equal to 20K a year though, is it?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:22 am 
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Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
jambanja wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.

The living wage is currently $20.55/hr
The minimum wage is about to go to $17.70 in April which is a big jump from where it is now, this is to try and get the minimum up to the current Govts promised target of $20 by 2021


I'm aware of that. A full-time living wage isn't equal to 20K a year though, is it?


Sorry I wasn’t saying it was just providing Mr smiley with some figures, pretty sure he can work the rest out himself


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:26 am 
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Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
jambanja wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.

The living wage is currently $20.55/hr
The minimum wage is about to go to $17.70 in April which is a big jump from where it is now, this is to try and get the minimum up to the current Govts promised target of $20 by 2021


I'm aware of that. A full-time living wage isn't equal to 20K a year though, is it?


No, and it’s my error there in remembering the 20 and wrongly attributing that to annual earnings. So I made a dumb mistake. He’s not stupid and I’m not deaf... but the attention is flattering, as always.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:30 am 
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booji boy wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's a lot of 60" tellies people will buy for their kids bedrooms


The tax free threshold should be there so low income earners (students, part time workers etc) pay no tax but it should abate as you earn more income. I don't want or need my my first $10k to be tax free but it would be good for low income earners to receive it.


Nah. Keep it simple. Increase the tax at the top end, bring in a tax free threshold at the bottom. Those lower earners pay less tax, middle income earners pay slightly less or about the same tax and those at the top end pay more tax.

Let's say:

$0k to $20k - Tax Free
$20k to $40k - 20%
$40k to $80k - 30%
$80k+ - 39%

If you're on $20k, you'd pay $0k tax (currently $2.5k)
If you're on $50k, you'd pay $7k tax (currently $8k)
If you're on $100k, you'd pay $23.8k tax (currently $24k)
And if you're on $200k, you'd pay $62.8k tax (currently $57k)

Or something like that, but with the macroeconomics considered as well to make the overall tax take relatively similar to now.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:31 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
jambanja wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Had a chat with the BiL about that a while back, I think he said the living wage is 20K... which is where the govt want the minimum wage at by 2020,


Either your BiL is stupid, or you're deaf.

The living wage is currently $20.55/hr
The minimum wage is about to go to $17.70 in April which is a big jump from where it is now, this is to try and get the minimum up to the current Govts promised target of $20 by 2021


I'm aware of that. A full-time living wage isn't equal to 20K a year though, is it?


No, and it’s my error there in remembering the 20 and wrongly attributing that to annual earnings. So I made a dumb mistake. He’s not stupid and I’m not deaf... but the attention is flattering, as always.


I'm calling this one Ghost-of-Nepia-splaining. I'm a fair man.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:31 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Don’t be too quick to judge Tehui. If you’re the single breadwinner for a family with 4+ children, that will go pretty quickly. A friend of mine is over 100k but has a large family and all the costs that entails. He’s doing ok and he certainly could drop some expenses but he’d never call himself rich and I’d agree with him. Bear in mind a single person on 100k earns less for their family than two parents on 50k each. I still think that’s wrong.

Personally, I think being rich has less to do with your income and more to do with your assets. The top 1% didn’t get there working 9-5 in high paying jobs. It’s all done through investments.


I get everything you said, but the key word in the opening statement was struggling to make ends meet. I personally wouldn't describe somebody earning $100k as being rich, but they should still be able to make ends meet comfortably.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:15 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Don’t be too quick to judge Tehui. If you’re the single breadwinner for a family with 4+ children, that will go pretty quickly. A friend of mine is over 100k but has a large family and all the costs that entails. He’s doing ok and he certainly could drop some expenses but he’d never call himself rich and I’d agree with him. Bear in mind a single person on 100k earns less for their family than two parents on 50k each. I still think that’s wrong.

Personally, I think being rich has less to do with your income and more to do with your assets. The top 1% didn’t get there working 9-5 in high paying jobs. It’s all done through investments.


I get everything you said, but the key word in the opening statement was struggling to make ends meet. I personally wouldn't describe somebody earning $100k as being rich, but they should still be able to make ends meet comfortably.


Yeah I’d agree with that.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:53 am 
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Gordon Bennett wrote:
booji boy wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's a lot of 60" tellies people will buy for their kids bedrooms


The tax free threshold should be there so low income earners (students, part time workers etc) pay no tax but it should abate as you earn more income. I don't want or need my my first $10k to be tax free but it would be good for low income earners to receive it.


Nah. Keep it simple. Increase the tax at the top end, bring in a tax free threshold at the bottom. Those lower earners pay less tax, middle income earners pay slightly less or about the same tax and those at the top end pay more tax.

Let's say:

$0k to $20k - Tax Free
$20k to $40k - 20%
$40k to $80k - 30%
$80k+ - 39%

If you're on $20k, you'd pay $0k tax (currently $2.5k)
If you're on $50k, you'd pay $7k tax (currently $8k)
If you're on $100k, you'd pay $23.8k tax (currently $24k)
And if you're on $200k, you'd pay $62.8k tax (currently $57k)

Or something like that, but with the macroeconomics considered as well to make the overall tax take relatively similar to now.


:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:54 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Bear in mind a single person on 100k earns less for their family than two parents on 50k each. I still think that’s wrong.


Are you referring to total tax amount paid, or something else?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:34 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Bear in mind a single person on 100k earns less for their family than two parents on 50k each. I still think that’s wrong.


Are you referring to total tax amount paid, or something else?


Total tax paid. One person on 100k pays more than 2 on 50k. Peter Dunne tried to introduce income splitting between married couples and partners but it was blocked.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:57 am 
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Gordon Bennett wrote:
booji boy wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Surely a tax free threshold is just a tax cut for the rich :twisted: :twisted:

It's a lot of 60" tellies people will buy for their kids bedrooms


The tax free threshold should be there so low income earners (students, part time workers etc) pay no tax but it should abate as you earn more income. I don't want or need my my first $10k to be tax free but it would be good for low income earners to receive it.


Nah. Keep it simple. Increase the tax at the top end, bring in a tax free threshold at the bottom. Those lower earners pay less tax, middle income earners pay slightly less or about the same tax and those at the top end pay more tax.

Let's say:

$0k to $20k - Tax Free
$20k to $40k - 20%
$40k to $80k - 30%
$80k+ - 39%

If you're on $20k, you'd pay $0k tax (currently $2.5k)
If you're on $50k, you'd pay $7k tax (currently $8k)
If you're on $100k, you'd pay $23.8k tax (currently $24k)
And if you're on $200k, you'd pay $62.8k tax (currently $57k)

Or something like that, but with the macroeconomics considered as well to make the overall tax take relatively similar to now.


If they adjust it with inflation, then I don't have an issue with that, even though I'd likely pay a bit more.

If they do bring in a capital gains tax, then I'd suggest excluding Kiwisaver (or having some other tax break on it) to encourage people to save towards retirement (and at least have some mechanism where the NZ businesses actually want to list on the NZ exchange, rather than looking overseas). Otherwise it looks like just getting an increasingly more expensive family home would be the "investment" of choice.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:02 am 
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You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:11 am 
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GS, the power to tax, once conceded, is almost impossible to rein in. I think the fear that most have is that the rates or methods of calculating/paying will be altered once the general idea is accepted - and unfortunately, the past history of every political party is that gut feeling (or fear) should be listened to.

In other words, I don't trust the politicians.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:33 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.

Yeah because as ussual if you have persevered,saved invested in education or pursued a craft and started a business, employed people,pay your tax and gst ,they, the creepy left have come up with another way to take from you and redistribute to losers


Last edited by jono45 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:34 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
GS, the power to tax, once conceded, is almost impossible to rein in. I think the fear that most have is that the rates or methods of calculating/paying will be altered once the general idea is accepted - and unfortunately, the past history of every political party is that gut feeling (or fear) should be listened to.

In other words, I don't trust the politicians.


That's you then Enz... I understand the sentiment although I do think it is just sentiment. Do all these other naysayers share thesame fear?

Disclaimer here... to pre-empt where this may go, I'm in favour of paying personal tax. I'm not one of those who tries to avoid my share so I don't have a problem with contributing. I reckon that's a defining line in itself. Many don't... popular sentiment is that tax is bad and must be avoided.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:35 am 
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jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.

Yeah because as ussual if you have persevered,saved invested in education or pursued a craft and started a business, employed people,pay your tax and gst ,they, the creepy left have come up with another way to take from you and redistribute to losers



wow :lol:

I forgot you existed. It was great.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:40 am 
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jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.

Yeah because as ussual if you have persevered,saved invested in education or pursued a craft and started a business, employed people,pay your tax and gst ,they, the creepy left have come up with another way to take from you and redistribute to losers

:lol: That's a new one I haven't heard yet.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.

Yeah because as ussual if you have persevered,saved invested in education or pursued a craft and started a business, employed people,pay your tax and gst ,they, the creepy left have come up with another way to take from you and redistribute to losers



wow :lol:

I forgot you existed. It was great.

Yeah well i been lurking abit recently and just couldnt go past your most recent socialist shit


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:11 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
You only pay CGT once, when and if you make a profit...

But the way the discussion is moving you’d think you were paying it every year on every dollar. It’s not going to hurt investments, it’s not going to destroy existing values. Life would go on more or less the same. You have one family home exempt if they do this and follow that model so you’re not being hurt on selling that either.

But the sky seems to be falling.


All the talk suggests that it won't be adjusted for inflation, which in reality means it's not just "profit" getting hit.

It also depends on whether they go with only taxing it when it is sold, or taxing paper profits. If it's the latter (which there is some talk that they may do for shares), and there are no deductions for losses, then you potentially pay capital gains tax on profits you never realise and will likely pay multiple times for the same "profit".

I suspect it will hurt investments, in the share-market at least, as it doesn't take much negativity at all to drive NZers away from any investment other than housing.

I'm not against a well implemented CGT, but I don't think it should exclude the family home, unless there are similar exclusions in other areas. Yes, I understand the family home is being used for a set purpose rather than just for investment, but the profit portion when selling it ARE investment gains (if adjusted for inflation). People aren't losing money by being taxed on their gains for the family home, any more than they are for being taxed on other investments.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:16 am 
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Demilich wrote:

All the talk suggests that it won't be adjusted for inflation, which in reality means it's not just "profit" getting hit.

It also depends on whether they go with only taxing it when it is sold, or taxing paper profits. If it's the latter (which there is some talk that they may do for shares), and there are no deductions for losses, then you potentially pay capital gains tax on profits you never realise and will likely pay multiple times for the same "profit".


Bearing in mind it is just talk for now and most of that seems to be scaremongering... I can't see that they would do this. It's counterproductive, makes no sense. Annual gains should be covered with your annual tax return. They're simply extra income, but trying to tax potential gain as opposed to actual gain is just not a flier.

I think it's rubbish talk from the usual crew of detractors.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:19 am 
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jono45 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:


wow :lol:

I forgot you existed. It was great.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:31 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
GS, the power to tax, once conceded, is almost impossible to rein in. I think the fear that most have is that the rates or methods of calculating/paying will be altered once the general idea is accepted - and unfortunately, the past history of every political party is that gut feeling (or fear) should be listened to.

In other words, I don't trust the politicians.


That's you then Enz... I understand the sentiment although I do think it is just sentiment. Do all these other naysayers share thesame fear?

Disclaimer here... to pre-empt where this may go, I'm in favour of paying personal tax. I'm not one of those who tries to avoid my share so I don't have a problem with contributing. I reckon that's a defining line in itself. Many don't... popular sentiment is that tax is bad and must be avoided.


Law , and particularly Tax Law is ponderous and open to interpretation.

All thinking taxpayers are obliged to avoid paying taxation above and beyond their legal obligations.
Unfortunately , our 30 year obsession with "Market Rules" has led to a festering industry of professional "tax consultants" pushing the boundaries and a dearth of informed and well drafted Law Revision which seeks to minimise unintended tax burden.

Enacting Law to define CGT is only to clarify the existing vague laws in this respect.

If you are a property investor , business developer , share market investor, farmer etc and are in the business of growing your capital base and claiming depreciation, maintenance , travel, plant, entertainment etc in the process , then when you sell any of these assets you are, currently obliged to declare your capital gain and be taxed at your nominal rate.

ie It's deemed to be income.

Many don't declare and the due taxation is not assessed.

The speculation in residential property is the target here and long overdue , IMO.

For 40 years the only viable path to wealth growth in this country has been via this type of investment.
It has distorted and crippled the productive economy and stunted innovation.

As a 'boomer' , who has never indulged in this , I'm now a target of [justifiable] contempt and anger from those born after the onset of Rogernomics who resent the fact that house ownership is no longer the norm it once was .


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:37 am 
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Thank you Grouch, well said.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:43 am 
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Quote:
The speculation in residential property is the target here and long overdue , IMO.

For 40 years the only viable path to wealth growth in this country has been via this type of investment.
It has distorted and crippled the productive economy and stunted innovation.


My initial thoughts were to leave out the family home but I am beginning to think we cannot. My mate in Auckland has said if they do allow that loophole he would only sell the house he is currently living in when he needs to cash up another property.

i.e. Every 5 years he would sell the house he is currently living in, kick out a tenant and move into the next house etc. He'll die well before he gets to the end.

How the heck do we figure out what is past profit and what is taxable though? All get valuations done by the date the law is implemented?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:45 am 
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grouch wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
GS, the power to tax, once conceded, is almost impossible to rein in. I think the fear that most have is that the rates or methods of calculating/paying will be altered once the general idea is accepted - and unfortunately, the past history of every political party is that gut feeling (or fear) should be listened to.

In other words, I don't trust the politicians.


That's you then Enz... I understand the sentiment although I do think it is just sentiment. Do all these other naysayers share thesame fear?

Disclaimer here... to pre-empt where this may go, I'm in favour of paying personal tax. I'm not one of those who tries to avoid my share so I don't have a problem with contributing. I reckon that's a defining line in itself. Many don't... popular sentiment is that tax is bad and must be avoided.


Law , and particularly Tax Law is ponderous and open to interpretation.

All thinking taxpayers are obliged to avoid paying taxation above and beyond their legal obligations.
Unfortunately , our 30 year obsession with "Market Rules" has led to a festering industry of professional "tax consultants" pushing the boundaries and a dearth of informed and well drafted Law Revision which seeks to minimise unintended tax burden.

Enacting Law to define CGT is only to clarify the existing vague laws in this respect.

If you are a property investor , business developer , share market investor, farmer etc and are in the business of growing your capital base and claiming depreciation, maintenance , travel, plant, entertainment etc in the process , then when you sell any of these assets you are, currently obliged to declare your capital gain and be taxed at your nominal rate.

ie It's deemed to be income.

Many don't declare and the due taxation is not assessed.

The speculation in residential property is the target here and long overdue , IMO.

For 40 years the only viable path to wealth growth in this country has been via this type of investment.
It has distorted and crippled the productive economy and stunted innovation.

As a 'boomer' , who has never indulged in this , I'm now a target of [justifiable] contempt and anger from those born after the onset of Rogernomics who resent the fact that house ownership is no longer the norm it once was .


So where does the family bach fit onto this where no 'depreciation, maintenance , travel, plant, entertainment etc' has ever been claimed?


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