Planet Rugby Forum

Fat Old Git wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact hydrogen powered vehicles might have on all of this. It has felt like a technology that might be arriving too late to be a serious competitor to EVs, even with the obvious benefits that you just fill up so don't have the recharging down time, but I've started seeing some adverts for them.

Infrastructure will be still be an issue at this stage.

deadduck wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact hydrogen powered vehicles might have on all of this. It has felt like a technology that might be arriving too late to be a serious competitor to EVs, even with the obvious benefits that you just fill up so don't have the recharging down time, but I've started seeing some adverts for them.

Infrastructure will be still be an issue at this stage.

I think in many ways it will be much easier to adapt the existing service station infrastructure to hydrogen compared to electric. The real estate is already established, it would just be a matter of installing the appropriate storage and pumping technologies.

That is where the problem is, those technologies don't really exist yet on a consumer-ready level.

guy smiley wrote:

jambanja wrote:

Wilderbeast wrote:That’s probably why he said “let your tiny mind explode over this”

This is my read anyway

Ahh so he was agreeing with him, fair enough, odd way to do it but there you go

To boil that down, ultimately its about less energy per passenger per kilometer. Currently we have a lot of non renewable energy sources that obscure that simple fact.

Mass transit ultimately requires denser living, as in NZ low load factor makes buses on average at least as bad as private trasport in this regard.

An alternative to mass transit is Transport As A Service. This has the big caveat of requiring robo cars.
It's big advantage us that the vehicle fleet can be matched to the average occupancy.

This is a better solution for real people who want to go door to door, and seldom all want to go to the same place.

If I were in government now, I would not be making grand plans to change to increase city densities or invest massively in mass transport because there is a high chance that better solutions are around the corner.

Not so much agreeing with him as playing on his constant themes attacking the govt over tax, etc. throw him a curve ball sort of thing, but the joke is dead now.


I see EV charging networks as easier to implement than hydrogen because we’re already supplying electricity everywhere now. All we need is hardware at the user point. Hydrogen is a whole new resource to handle and upgrading a standard service station would be expensive to do. Storage tanks would need to be upgraded for a start, unless you fancy the idea of above ground storage with the attendant issues of extra real estate needed and interruptions to sight lines. It’s also unproved tech as DD points out.

There’s a side issue to this that deserves some air... with growing populations, mass transit options become more relevant, even necessary. We will eventually find ourselves needing to address a change in our lifestyles to embrace that. Satellite towns and light rail sort of thing... I’m currently living 1/2 way between Tauranga and KatiKati. SH2 is a traffic nightmare, plans are in place to eventually upgrade the road but no one is talking about utilising the existing rail line into Tauranga that passes along the coast through Omokoroa. That would be a dream commute and even a tourist drawcard given some development and imagination. Same goes for places like West Melton in Canterbury. The volume of single occupant car traffic in places like this is nuts when there are train lines adjacent.

Policy around clean tech cars is a start but it only scratches the surface of future transport issues.

guy smiley wrote:

jambanja wrote:

Wilderbeast wrote:That’s probably why he said “let your tiny mind explode over this”

This is my read anyway

Ahh so he was agreeing with him, fair enough, odd way to do it but there you go

Not so much agreeing with him as playing on his constant themes attacking the govt over tax, etc. throw him a curve ball sort of thing, but the joke is dead now.


I see EV charging networks as easier to implement than hydrogen because we’re already supplying electricity everywhere now. All we need is hardware at the user point. Hydrogen is a whole new resource to handle and upgrading a standard service station would be expensive to do. Storage tanks would need to be upgraded for a start, unless you fancy the idea of above ground storage with the attendant issues of extra real estate needed and interruptions to sight lines. It’s also unproved tech as DD points out.

There’s a side issue to this that deserves some air... with growing populations, mass transit options become more relevant, even necessary. We will eventually find ourselves needing to address a change in our lifestyles to embrace that. Satellite towns and light rail sort of thing... I’m currently living 1/2 way between Tauranga and KatiKati. SH2 is a traffic nightmare, plans are in place to eventually upgrade the road but no one is talking about utilising the existing rail line into Tauranga that passes along the coast through Omokoroa. That would be a dream commute and even a tourist drawcard given some development and imagination. Same goes for places like West Melton in Canterbury. The volume of single occupant car traffic in places like this is nuts when there are train lines adjacent.

Policy around clean tech cars is a start but it only scratches the surface of future transport issues.

merlin the happy pig wrote:Hmmm WTF happened to my response?

Short form, watts/pax/Kim is ultimately what we need to minimize.
Public transit without denser cities doesn't deliver this.

Another solution is Transport As A Service.
Robo taxis (yes not available yet) allow you to have a fleet where the average size is not much bigger than the average occupancy.

Requiring people to cram in or all want to go to/from same place to same destination is unrealistic.

If I were in govt I would not be looking to city density and mass transport to solve this issue when a far more desirable solution is possible.

merlin the happy pig wrote:

deadduck wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact hydrogen powered vehicles might have on all of this. It has felt like a technology that might be arriving too late to be a serious competitor to EVs, even with the obvious benefits that you just fill up so don't have the recharging down time, but I've started seeing some adverts for them.

Infrastructure will be still be an issue at this stage.

I think in many ways it will be much easier to adapt the existing service station infrastructure to hydrogen compared to electric. The real estate is already established, it would just be a matter of installing the appropriate storage and pumping technologies.

That is where the problem is, those technologies don't really exist yet on a consumer-ready level.

EVs destroy the business model for refilling stations.
The vast majority of journeys are commutes.
As such the batteries will still be more than half charged and can be recharged at home.

There will still be the need for supercharging stations, but they will be strategically placed to support people on longer journeys.

Hydrogen might be best suited to shipping given that batteries are nowhere near energy dense enough for long distances.

deadduck wrote:

merlin the happy pig wrote:

deadduck wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact hydrogen powered vehicles might have on all of this. It has felt like a technology that might be arriving too late to be a serious competitor to EVs, even with the obvious benefits that you just fill up so don't have the recharging down time, but I've started seeing some adverts for them.

Infrastructure will be still be an issue at this stage.

I think in many ways it will be much easier to adapt the existing service station infrastructure to hydrogen compared to electric. The real estate is already established, it would just be a matter of installing the appropriate storage and pumping technologies.

That is where the problem is, those technologies don't really exist yet on a consumer-ready level.

EVs destroy the business model for refilling stations.
The vast majority of journeys are commutes.
As such the batteries will still be more than half charged and can be recharged at home.

There will still be the need for supercharging stations, but they will be strategically placed to support people on longer journeys.

Hydrogen might be best suited to shipping given that batteries are nowhere near energy dense enough for long distances.

I get that the idealised model for EVs is greater than one for hydrogen refilling stations, but there are any number of scenarios where having a home-based charging point is perhaps not an option or not practical for people and an offsite fill station is a better model.

For example, what happens if you don't own your own home and your landlord won't install one? You pay? Then what happens when you move? What happens if your property, whether you own it or not, has no off-street parking? Do you have kerbside chargers? Long extension leads? How confident would you be in the security of that? What happens if your neighbour parks in your usual spot outside your place and you have to park half way down the street, how do you charge the car then? What happens in shared accommodation, do you have 4 or 5 separate chargers at the property, or do you all fight over it? I think many people would prefer to be able fill their vehicle once, perhaps twice per week, for half an hour somewhere away from their home and then not have to worry about all that crap. The same applies for anyone who regularly travels long distances.

At the end of the day, if both EVs and hydrogen cars are in the market, the market will decide what's the preferred model and the other one will probably dwindle over time.

BillW wrote:

merlin the happy pig wrote:Hmmm WTF happened to my response?

Short form, watts/pax/Kim is ultimately what we need to minimize.
Public transit without denser cities doesn't deliver this.

Another solution is Transport As A Service.
Robo taxis (yes not available yet) allow you to have a fleet where the average size is not much bigger than the average occupancy.

Requiring people to cram in or all want to go to/from same place to same destination is unrealistic.

If I were in govt I would not be looking to city density and mass transport to solve this issue when a far more desirable solution is possible.

At this point EV's are only suitable for commuting purposes.
So instead of subsidising overpriced EVs and taxing the shit out of those who cannot use EVs, just subsidise Lime scooters.
You know it makes sense.

guy smiley wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Are we in danger of actually having a sensible informative discussion on a politics thread? Yes we are!

I've just been down to Briscoes. They have 4 charging points. On day they'll all have them. The new parking buildings in Christchurch have some as well.

But it wasn't the places we normally park while going about our normal business I was talking about. I was thinking smaller more isolated places enroute to other locations. Halfway to Nelson or Queestown from Christchurch for example. Places that currently get by with a single service station with a fast turn around.

It’s a hurdle for now but not insurmountable and to be honest it’s probably not long until that sort of service is widespread. The Western Australia RAC put a lot of effort into establishing an EV charging network around the southwest of WA over the last few years. The result is that for the last 2-3 years it’s been possible to tour around that corner of the state easily in an EV. If it’s possible across those sorts of distances it’s doable here.

Fat Old Git wrote:Don't most EVs have an adapter that allows them to be charged off a normal socket in the garage?

Fat Old Git wrote: I've just been down to Briscoes.

eugenius wrote:

All good.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion

Even if some opinions potentially lead to disaster ?

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote: I've just been down to Briscoes.

You better not have paid full price for anything or I'm going to fly down to Christchurch and punch you on the nose.

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote: I've just been down to Briscoes.

You better not have paid full price for anything or I'm going to fly down to Christchurch and punch you on the nose.

Dark wrote:

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote: I've just been down to Briscoes.

You better not have paid full price for anything or I'm going to fly down to Christchurch and punch you on the nose.

Amazing place Briscoes. It is like the shop where everything is permanently on sale for a "limited time". They seem to just move the date it ends up every week.

Dark wrote:

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote: I've just been down to Briscoes.

You better not have paid full price for anything or I'm going to fly down to Christchurch and punch you on the nose.

Amazing place Briscoes. It is like the shop where everything is permanently on sale for a "limited time". They seem to just move the date it ends up every week.

Dark wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Don't most EVs have an adapter that allows them to be charged off a normal socket in the garage?

How many rentals have garages or even off street parking?

merlin the happy pig wrote:

Dark wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:Don't most EVs have an adapter that allows them to be charged off a normal socket in the garage?

How many rentals have garages or even off street parking?

About half the ones I was in.

Fat Old Git wrote:4 out of 5 for me in NZ, with the exception being my student flat. Although I think there might have been a larger shared carport underneath the 2 flats at the front of the block.

And now that we are evil landlords our own rental has a large double plus garage.

Dark wrote:Actually

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid theory

Couldn't you just have a battery pack you charge in your house during the day and then put it in the car over night to charge it with an internal plug.

Again

If that is dumb I apologise

BillW wrote:

Dark wrote:Actually

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid theory

Couldn't you just have a battery pack you charge in your house during the day and then put it in the car over night to charge it with an internal plug.

Again

If that is dumb I apologise

Sounds like a good idea but the cost of the batteries is what makes an EV so hellishly expensive.
And they need replacing about every five years I'm told.

The jury is still out on the best way to power EVs and NZ IMHO is better to wait until the EV industry settles on a common technology before throwing money at a system that may be heading down a blind alley.

BillW wrote:

Dark wrote:Actually

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid theory

Couldn't you just have a battery pack you charge in your house during the day and then put it in the car over night to charge it with an internal plug.

Again

If that is dumb I apologise

Sounds like a good idea but the cost of the batteries is what makes an EV so hellishly expensive.
And they need replacing about every five years I'm told.

The jury is still out on the best way to power EVs and NZ IMHO is better to wait until the EV industry settles on a common technology before throwing money at a system that may be heading down a blind alley.

Wilderbeast wrote:

BillW wrote:

Dark wrote:Actually

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid theory

Couldn't you just have a battery pack you charge in your house during the day and then put it in the car over night to charge it with an internal plug.

Again

If that is dumb I apologise

Sounds like a good idea but the cost of the batteries is what makes an EV so hellishly expensive.
And they need replacing about every five years I'm told.

The jury is still out on the best way to power EVs and NZ IMHO is better to wait until the EV industry settles on a common technology before throwing money at a system that may be heading down a blind alley.

Just googled that most manufacturers are offering 8 year/100k mile warranties on their batteries.

Dark wrote:

Wilderbeast wrote:

BillW wrote:

Dark wrote:Actually

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid theory

Couldn't you just have a battery pack you charge in your house during the day and then put it in the car over night to charge it with an internal plug.

Again

If that is dumb I apologise

Sounds like a good idea but the cost of the batteries is what makes an EV so hellishly expensive.
And they need replacing about every five years I'm told.

The jury is still out on the best way to power EVs and NZ IMHO is better to wait until the EV industry settles on a common technology before throwing money at a system that may be heading down a blind alley.

Just googled that most manufacturers are offering 8 year/100k mile warranties on their batteries.

Which probably means we will end up with 6-7 year old EV imports (like current petrol) and we get stuck with working out what to do with the multiple batteries in 1-2 years

This shit is so obvious in happening it is laughable

deadduck wrote:Seems like Julie-Ann Genter has been telling fibs (well strictly speaking, what she said is accurate but it's also hugely disingenuous) by claiming that National's transport policy increased the road toll by 50% since 2013

Why'd she choose that particular year, you might ask? Well it just so happens that year had the lowest road toll since 1950.

Wilderbeast wrote:

deadduck wrote:Seems like Julie-Ann Genter has been telling fibs (well strictly speaking, what she said is accurate but it's also hugely disingenuous) by claiming that National's transport policy increased the road toll by 50% since 2013

Why'd she choose that particular year, you might ask? Well it just so happens that year had the lowest road toll since 1950.

So the road toll had been decreasing but started to increase once Nationals new policies became embedded?

jambanja wrote:

Wilderbeast wrote:

deadduck wrote:Seems like Julie-Ann Genter has been telling fibs (well strictly speaking, what she said is accurate but it's also hugely disingenuous) by claiming that National's transport policy increased the road toll by 50% since 2013

Why'd she choose that particular year, you might ask? Well it just so happens that year had the lowest road toll since 1950.

So the road toll had been decreasing but started to increase once Nationals new policies became embedded?

What policies would increase road tolls, genuinely interested.

Wilderbeast wrote:

deadduck wrote:Seems like Julie-Ann Genter has been telling fibs (well strictly speaking, what she said is accurate but it's also hugely disingenuous) by claiming that National's transport policy increased the road toll by 50% since 2013

Why'd she choose that particular year, you might ask? Well it just so happens that year had the lowest road toll since 1950.

So the road toll had been decreasing but started to increase once Nationals new policies became embedded?

Enzedder wrote:I agree - a bit disingenuous. National spent a shitload on roads and perhaps the only criticism was the heavy spending on 'roads of national significance' and secondary roads got the potholes filled (sort-of) by comparison.

However, without a breakdown of where the deaths were and how that compared, we don't have the info to rebut her. I wonder if she has the info (I doubt it)