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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:35 am 
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... they fly in contract Malaysian labour for the season guaranteeing them hours at the expense of the local, compulsorily casualised workforce.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:48 am 
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Tauranga, Bay of Plenty
$30,000 - $40,000 a year
We have permanent, positions available for orchard hands who are physically fit, enthusiastic, driven and passionate about growing kiwi fruit industry and are keen to be part of a motivated team.

Ideally the successful applicants will have :

Experience in Thinning, Pruning, Tree Planting and Harvesting OR experience in orchard equipment maintenance and repair
Grow safe certification would be an advantage
Have good general knowledge of tractors, sprayers and all other orchard machinery.
Experience is desired but we will offer ongoing development and training, a great company culture and the feel good factor of knowing you’re working for a company that genuinely cares for the environment, its community and its people.

We also welcome applications from candidates who want to take their first step into the Horticulture sector. We can offer ongoing training, which can lead into formal qualifications and a long and rewarding career in this exciting industry.

Applicants for this position should have NZ residency or a valid NZ work visa.

Duties include:

Picking,summer work and winter pruning
Stock management tasks
General warehouse tasks
What you'll have:

No previous experience required as full training will be given prior to your shift
Good numeracy skills
You will need to be physically fit as heavy lifting will be required as part of your duties
Ability to work at a consistently good pace
'Can do' attitude
Job Type: Full-time

Salary: $30,000.00 to $40,000.00 /year


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:55 am 
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Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:56 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


It is more to go on than your opinion on an anonymous internet forum


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:58 am 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


It is more to go on than your opinion on an anonymous internet forum


I worked in a packing shed near Tauranga for laughs this last season.

What would you like to know?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:02 am 
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Dark wrote:
Labour shit themselves, after the Nat's cancer announcement and actually do something, how ever not what they promised.

Pretty funny

One of those things that really annoy me, cancer policy. If there was one thing you would think should be bi-partisan and just get together and formulate an agreed plan rather than playing politics, you would think cancer would be sitting at the toppish.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12255486



You mean poor old Soiman went into a fug when he realised that HE had nothing to counteract the long in the planning cancer policy that was about to be announced, so instead of settling back and picking it off bit by bit, HE shit himself and the bed with a half arsed, hurriedly slapped together, copycat policy. Well done simple.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:04 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


It is more to go on than your opinion on an anonymous internet forum


I worked in a packing shed near Tauranga for laughs this last season.

What would you like to know?



Not a lot. I did fruit picking when I was young. Pay was pretty crap, but it was years ago.

Times and needs change when you can't find many kiwis to pull finger.

Wages and conditions tend to go up.

Unless you are saying the Ardern govt is letting people work for less than minimum wage, in shit conditions and aren't doing anything about it?

This is a shocking revelation

And the Greens support them?

What is going on with this lot?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:05 am 
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$30k-$40k per year is f*ck all really. Btw, a "fulltime" job paying only $30k per year is below minimum wage.

But you know, it's a fact of a primary industry based economy almost entirely reliant on exports, that if the industry wamts to be price competitive in overseas markets they have to keep costs down.

In kiwifruit for example, NZ is competing against the likes of Chile, a country with more favourable growing climate and lower wages for the pickers.

Getting the balance wrong with commodity prices vs production costs can drive farmers to change to more productive products - hence the epidemic of dairy conversions in the last 20 years. My uncle who used to be a kiwifruit grower ditched it ages ago, now his farm is a free-range pork farm.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am 
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Full time is anything 30 hours a week or over, so it is over the minimum, but just under 20 bucks an hour.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:39 am 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


It is more to go on than your opinion on an anonymous internet forum


I worked in a packing shed near Tauranga for laughs this last season.

What would you like to know?



Not a lot. I did fruit picking when I was young. Pay was pretty crap, but it was years ago.

Times and needs change when you can't find many kiwis to pull finger.

Wages and conditions tend to go up.

Unless you are saying the Ardern govt is letting people work for less than minimum wage, in shit conditions and aren't doing anything about it?

This is a shocking revelation

And the Greens support them?

What is going on with this lot?

Saying you’re a silly cnut is too kind.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:11 pm 
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I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:16 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh, a job ad. That must mean something, then.

Spoken to anyone who has any experience in the industry, at all?


It is more to go on than your opinion on an anonymous internet forum


I worked in a packing shed near Tauranga for laughs this last season.

What would you like to know?



Not a lot. I did fruit picking when I was young. Pay was pretty crap, but it was years ago.

Times and needs change when you can't find many kiwis to pull finger.

Wages and conditions tend to go up.

Unless you are saying the Ardern govt is letting people work for less than minimum wage, in shit conditions and aren't doing anything about it?

This is a shocking revelation

And the Greens support them?

What is going on with this lot?

Saying you’re a silly cnut is too kind.


I'm not the one making shit up about employee conditions with zero evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:18 pm 
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sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:24 pm 
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He just said he worked in a packhouse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.


Last edited by sonic_attack on Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.
yep. As long as there aren’t artificial import barriers then the market should react logically to reward any comparative advantage places like Chile enjoy to produce kiwi fruit (or other goods and services at a lower opportunity cost) than NZ. As long as you don’t own a farm, work on one or supply goods or services to related markets, then it’s all upside you can enjoy cheaper vitamin C rich Chinese Gooseberries from Chile.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.


No. It means the pay doesn't reflect the work and work conditions to attract labour.

Saying "this is what I'm paying" and having no one show up to accept it doesn't give reason to seek a cheap labour source specifically for your unsustainable business model.

Rob Muldoon isn't prime minister. Its not 1983. There's no price or wage freeze. NZ labour had unions and collective bargaining taken from them in place of a free market economy and individual employment contracts. We either have a free market economy or we don't.

The whole idea is supply and demand. When the demand is there and supply is short, then the price rises. Its the same for wages.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:36 pm 
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sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.

Well, I basically told you that was the case outside Tauranga just a few months ago...

Because I was there and I saw it.

What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:55 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.

Well, I basically told you that was the case outside Tauranga just a few months ago...

Because I was there and I saw it.

What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.


Ok.

I am willing to accept you saw this in one situation. Sounds like a nasty employer.

But unless the govt is ignoring an entire industry screwing workers that is what it was.

Given the govt have done zero with immigration (even though Winston wanted to drop it to 10k and Labour promised to drop it by 30k and neither have ever mentioned it again), I am guessing it isn't an industry wide issue.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12053443
Quote:
The Government's Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme allows the horticulture and viticulture industries to recruit workers from overseas for seasonal work when there are not enough New Zealand workers. The programme caps RSE places each year. Immigration New Zealand reports the cap started at 5000 in 2007 and was increased to 11,100 in December 2017.

Langi Fatanitavake from Tonga is one of the team leaders at Trevelyan's. For the past 11 years, he's spent six months working the apple crop in Hawke's Bay under the RSE programme. Trevelyan's asked his other employer, Mr Apple, if they'd send a crew north for five or six weeks when apple season finished.

This is Fatanitavake's first year working kiwifruit. He says he sends home $500 each week for his wife and child, and makes enough money in New Zealand in seven months to last all year.

"In Tonga, it's very hard, the work in Tonga. I like to help my family and my team. It's a better job and I'm very happy and enjoy the job and the boys is coming to work and the boys are very happy to be here."

Trevelyan's had employees from 42 countries last year, and expects similar numbers this year.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.

Well, I basically told you that was the case outside Tauranga just a few months ago...

Because I was there and I saw it.

What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.


Ok.

I am willing to accept you saw this in one situation. Sounds like a nasty employer.

But unless the govt is ignoring an entire industry screwing workers that is what it was.

Given the govt have done zero with immigration (even though Winston wanted to drop it to 10k and Labour promised to drop it by 30k and neither have ever mentioned it again), I am guessing it isn't an industry wide issue.


Yeah. Because saying you’re a silly cnut would be too kind.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:04 pm 
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sonic_attack wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12053443
Quote:
The Government's Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme allows the horticulture and viticulture industries to recruit workers from overseas for seasonal work when there are not enough New Zealand workers. The programme caps RSE places each year. Immigration New Zealand reports the cap started at 5000 in 2007 and was increased to 11,100 in December 2017.

Langi Fatanitavake from Tonga is one of the team leaders at Trevelyan's. For the past 11 years, he's spent six months working the apple crop in Hawke's Bay under the RSE programme. Trevelyan's asked his other employer, Mr Apple, if they'd send a crew north for five or six weeks when apple season finished.

This is Fatanitavake's first year working kiwifruit. He says he sends home $500 each week for his wife and child, and makes enough money in New Zealand in seven months to last all year.

"In Tonga, it's very hard, the work in Tonga. I like to help my family and my team. It's a better job and I'm very happy and enjoy the job and the boys is coming to work and the boys are very happy to be here."

Trevelyan's had employees from 42 countries last year, and expects similar numbers this year.


Not sure how that shows they were by-passing kiwis wanting the jobs.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:05 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
He just said he worked in a packhorse the season just gone. That gives him at least an insight and probably more knowledge than the average cabbage.

If imported labour with guaranteed hours at the expense of locals who are offered casual employment with no guarantee, it does kind of make a mockery of the system we exist in.

It seems there's a cop-out clause to maintain low wages.



And if you could just provide evidence of these one off contracts to off shore workers guaranteeing hours, while avoiding actual kiwi equivalent workers who you know you can actually keep as a long term employee, I will admit I am wrong in a heart beat.

Well, I basically told you that was the case outside Tauranga just a few months ago...

Because I was there and I saw it.

What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.


Ok.

I am willing to accept you saw this in one situation. Sounds like a nasty employer.

But unless the govt is ignoring an entire industry screwing workers that is what it was.

Given the govt have done zero with immigration (even though Winston wanted to drop it to 10k and Labour promised to drop it by 30k and neither have ever mentioned it again), I am guessing it isn't an industry wide issue.


Yeah. Because saying you’re a silly cnut would be too kind.


You can't have it both ways Sherlock


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:43 pm 
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It's not the government turning a blind eye to an industry. It's the government being complicit and content to allow the path they created 40 years ago to continue without intervention, or driving a path out of it.

Low wages are good for business. Shows better productivity and profitability. That's good for investment when NZ needed it. What it also shows is the gulfing chasm of divide it creates in apportioning the wealth created, and how detrimental that is to society overall.

When a low wage economy is created, the only way out that causes the least harm overall is the competition for labour in an environment where Labour is in short supply.

Allowing cheap labour to be imported just keeps the cycle going. In a higher wage economy obviously business profit is lower overall but more people are happy and healthy.

At the far end of this experiment NZ has been running for 35 years is a violent slum, when people get desperate. We see the transition there already, not visually but it's behind the front door in communities already.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:20 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.
however there is also a supply side discussion concerning the distortion of the labor market resulting from barriers to the free movement of labor.

The questions isn’t whether we will accept distortion of the market, it is simply which ones do we want to accept for a particular “greater good”?

Preservation of some local primary industries has been seen as a compelling rationale for some distortion, both to provide returns for owners and to provide employment for otherwise “uncompetitive” unskilled locals by maintaining labor practices which limit the market for workers to locals or strongly regulated imported labor.

Market purists would want both distortions abandoned.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:56 pm 
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grouch wrote:
Kahu wrote:
Piggymana upping the ante tonight at Ihumātao. Funny how they can send a hundred officers to a peaceful protest but early hours of Sunday morning when my dickhead neighbour is bashing his Mrs they're understaffed and say to lay a complaint in the morning and to call back if the violence escalates


Do you think if Mr dickhead neighbour was posting intent on social media they'd be less 'risk averse' ?

My sympathies for you , mrs dickhead neighbour and the [imo] slightly misguided SOUL protestors

BUT
hopefully the blatant ignore of stated government protocols by the police will result in some serious hatchet work on their over-politicised management and we may actually get to see what is going on behind closed doors in the Royal commission enquiry into the Christchurch Massacre.

IMO the secrecy in which this enquiry is operating is the greatest political scandal in my lifetime.


Hmm I'll reserve judgement for now but I think it is concerning, as is the alleged use of phone blocking equipment at Ihumātao.

Open and most transparent government? Seems like it is anything but


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:49 pm 
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sonic_attack wrote:
It's not the government turning a blind eye to an industry. It's the government being complicit and content to allow the path they created 40 years ago to continue without intervention, or driving a path out of it.

Low wages are good for business. Shows better productivity and profitability. That's good for investment when NZ needed it. What it also shows is the gulfing chasm of divide it creates in apportioning the wealth created, and how detrimental that is to society overall.

When a low wage economy is created, the only way out that causes the least harm overall is the competition for labour in an environment where Labour is in short supply.

Allowing cheap labour to be imported just keeps the cycle going. In a higher wage economy obviously business profit is lower overall but more people are happy and healthy.

At the far end of this experiment NZ has been running for 35 years is a violent slum, when people get desperate. We see the transition there already, not visually but it's behind the front door in communities already.


Good bannonesque stuff. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:01 pm 
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Mr Mike wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
What sonic said, by the way. We hear about the ‘market’ all the time but somehow, labour is placed outside that and wages never reflect demand.
however there is also a supply side discussion concerning the distortion of the labor market resulting from barriers to the free movement of labor.

The questions isn’t whether we will accept distortion of the market, it is simply which ones do we want to accept for a particular “greater good”?

Preservation of some local primary industries has been seen as a compelling rationale for some distortion, both to provide returns for owners and to provide employment for otherwise “uncompetitive” unskilled locals by maintaining labor practices which limit the market for workers to locals or strongly regulated imported labor.

Market purists would want both distortions abandoned.


Govt has an obligation to provide low-skilled decent paid employment to the most cognitively challenged members of society, particularly in today's meritocratic free for all. We've come a long way since the 80s. See Tucker.

Didn't phrase that quite right. Govt not to necessarily provide the employment but to ensure the 'distortion' you speak of. This is a serious issue, and dumping gamma dudes on the shit heap just creates el paso incidents.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:13 am 
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Quite happy to pay millions for orchards but the idea of paying a couple of dollars above minimum wage is just plan stupid.
I've worked in the industry and it's very similar to dairy farming, screw the wages down, aim for capital gain as it's tax free. Easy to understand philosophy really. Complete bollocks long term.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:41 am 
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Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.

Who pays $20 /hour?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:11 am 
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grouch wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.

Who pays $20 /hour?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farmin ... 50-an-hour

But the person in the article wouldn't sleep in a tent, so said it wasn't worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:23 am 
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Is this the sort of behaviour we can expect from the "most open and transparent government"?

Ombudsman to investigate Julie Anne Genter's refusal to release letter to Transport Minister Phil Twyford

City councillors claim Green Party agreement used as leverage to get agreement on Let's Get Wellington Moving


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:41 am 
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Dark wrote:
grouch wrote:
Dark wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
I'm talking about the harvest. Not a full time orchard job.

I did it too when I was 16-17 in BOP for a season. Was fine at that age because we just smoked pot and har ested gold tops. As an adult though it's a bit of a stretch to drop whatever you're doing to go chase minimum wage for the work you do in a short time frame of roughly 8-10 weeks if you're able to get work right through.

Not that you would expect to be making millions, but really they can do better than offer minimum for the scale and conditions on offer. Just for that particular industry alone given the scale of it.

If you need labour to bring your product to market, but don't offer a wage that folk find attractive enough to drop what they're doing and help you harvest and your fruit rots on the vine, that's pretty much your own fault and you have an unsustainable business model.


That is fine and I tend to agree, but it means these businesses need off shore labour if kiwis don't think pretty much 20 bucks an hour is worth it.

Who pays $20 /hour?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farmin ... 50-an-hour

But the person in the article wouldn't sleep in a tent, so said it wasn't worth it.


Counter quote
Quote:
While a kiwifruit industry group said its surveying showed an expected average picking rate this season of $23.50 an hour, a worker advocate disputed this, saying that as picking was often at piece rates some slower pickers were falling below minimum wage.


And even this is slanted towards the employer line in the rest of the article.

The truth is , it's poorly paid piece work and has depended on illegal foreign labour who accept living in sub-standard and over-crowded accommodation because it's better than sh*thole they were recruited from or they're eurotrash 'freedom' camping in BS self-contained vans sleeping in public places and using ratepayer provided public amenities or defecating in the shrubbery.

I can cherry pick articles too.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/111000891/kiwifruit-pickers-told-to-shop-around-for-employers-this-season?rm=a


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:50 am 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49238749

The more and more that article gets repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and the longer it gets ignored, and the longer we don't do anything about looking at an escape route with this industry propping up practically the entire country...

My fear is, eventually, before we transition or make an attempt to be less reliant on dairy or stock, it's all going to crash in a heap. It's entirely possible that we will walk into a time where beef and lamb aren't as popular as they are now. It's entirely possible that down the track folk will look at these in an entirely different light and it'll all be worth nothing.
I personally reckon it's a slippery slope. Science agree's. I love steak, dairy and lamb, I eat the stuff all the time. I'm convinced though, down the line, the calls to stop will come and they'll come louder and louder, that whole gig of diet V planet is pretty shaky IMO.

When the population of the planet start looking harder and harder, and we have a nation buried neck deep in dairy and dry stock there could be trouble for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 am 
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So now we've got Genter lying about letters and refusing to make them public; Cabinet appearing to ignore TEC advice on the proposed centralisation programme; Winston undermining Little and questioning Labour's good faith; and apparently Labour advising women to not frequent certain parts of Parliament as a response to the bad touching scandal.

This is undoubtedly a shit government. That have achieved nothing other than lurching from one incompetent episode to another. They've got a lot of goodwill to burn since there was such a huge move against National, and boy are they burning it. But I'm starting to wonder if they're doing such a poor job that they're setting themselves for another 3 terms in Opposition when they finally get the boot.

It is a shambles.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 am 
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sonic_attack wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49238749

The more and more that article gets repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and the longer it gets ignored, and the longer we don't do anything about looking at an escape route with this industry propping up practically the entire country...

My fear is, eventually, before we transition or make an attempt to be less reliant on dairy or stock, it's all going to crash in a heap. It's entirely possible that we will walk into a time where beef and lamb aren't as popular as they are now. It's entirely possible that down the track folk will look at these in an entirely different light and it'll all be worth nothing.
I personally reckon it's a slippery slope. Science agree's. I love steak, dairy and lamb, I eat the stuff all the time. I'm convinced though, down the line, the calls to stop will come and they'll come louder and louder, that whole gig of diet V planet is pretty shaky IMO.

When the population of the planet start looking harder and harder, and we have a nation buried neck deep in dairy and dry stock there could be trouble for everyone.



In all the doom and gloom, there is an opportunity to corner the market on low-carbon protein with the right technological breakthroughs. Not that addressing methane emissions will be a panacea for beef and sheep farming, but it will go a long way to mitigating the carbon emissions associated with dairy, beef, and sheep meat. The right cattle genetics will start to be a value-add right through to the checkout if consumers start buying with a preference for low-carbon products.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:17 am 
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deadduck wrote:
sonic_attack wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49238749

The more and more that article gets repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and keeps getting repeated, and the longer it gets ignored, and the longer we don't do anything about looking at an escape route with this industry propping up practically the entire country...

My fear is, eventually, before we transition or make an attempt to be less reliant on dairy or stock, it's all going to crash in a heap. It's entirely possible that we will walk into a time where beef and lamb aren't as popular as they are now. It's entirely possible that down the track folk will look at these in an entirely different light and it'll all be worth nothing.
I personally reckon it's a slippery slope. Science agree's. I love steak, dairy and lamb, I eat the stuff all the time. I'm convinced though, down the line, the calls to stop will come and they'll come louder and louder, that whole gig of diet V planet is pretty shaky IMO.

When the population of the planet start looking harder and harder, and we have a nation buried neck deep in dairy and dry stock there could be trouble for everyone.



In all the doom and gloom, there is an opportunity to corner the market on low-carbon protein with the right technological breakthroughs. Not that addressing methane emissions will be a panacea for beef and sheep farming, but it will go a long way to mitigating the carbon emissions associated with dairy, beef, and sheep meat. The right cattle genetics will start to be a value-add right through to the checkout if consumers start buying with a preference for low-carbon products.


The overall damage that livestock farming causes will likely tip the scales towards plant based protein sources if we do start moving towards market driven type scenarios, surely? The amount of land needed for intensive high yield type cropping is far less than equivalent livestock while there’s no waste run off to contend with. NZ has an opportunity to dive into that type of farming now and set up a more sustainable food production industry... but the dominant voices in the sector can only complain about not having the tools.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:40 am 
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If I have to choose between bacon and the planet, bacon is going to win.

I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:44 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
If I have to choose between bacon and the planet, bacon is going to win.

I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is.


Is that how Muldoon got in?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:47 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
If I have to choose between bacon and the planet, bacon is going to win.

I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is.


Is that how Muldoon got in?


Hard to tell. Was he the bacon or a small planet?


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