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Malahide Mullet wrote:So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Malahide Mullet wrote:So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Malahide Mullet wrote:So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.

Malahide Mullet wrote:So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.

danthefan wrote:

Malahide Mullet wrote:So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.

FFS, what was he thinking so? How the fudge did he think it didn't look like a rape?

covrich wrote:

Malahide Mullet wrote:So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.

...
Other thing slightly related is I wonder if they will reveal it was Joffrey who actually tried to have Bran murdered after the fall?

tabascoboy wrote:

Malahide Mullet wrote:So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Agreed, the scene in the book is consensual with Cersei only seemingly worried about being discovered in flagrante. Having it as rape changes the dynamic completely. How will they work it later when Cersei sends for help to Jaime when she's arrested by the High Septon?

...
The reason I ask is because many of the people who have read the books are questioning why the scene was changed. As described in the book, told from Jaime’s point of view, Cersei initially resists but quickly gives her consent.
I see, I see. What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

[Update: George R.R. Martin has now weighed in about the debate on his personal blog. Essentially, he says that it’s unclear in the book scene whether Jaime rapes Cersei or not, as the scene is told from Jaime’s point of view, and is therefore only one side of the story; he also says that he’s unsure what Benioff and Weiss’s intentions might have been in their version, as he never discussed it with them.]

One of my colleagues suggested that the tweak, making Jaime the kind of person who might force himself on Cersei, might have happened to remind viewers that he’s not a morally upright guy, pouring out his heart to Brienne notwithstanding. Was that part of the decision to your knowledge?
No. It’s a very, very complicated scene. The thing about it is that Jaime has come home and is trying to convince himself that things are the same: that he and Cersei are a unit, they’re in love, they have sex, everything comes out of that bond. And he’s desperate to reinvigorate that and it has not been working. That’s part of what’s behind him, that lie he’s telling himself, that seasons two and three didn’t happen. So it’s a last act of stupid clinging to what’s been home for him, because it will never be the same. It’s also setting up something that happens in the finale. For Cersei, she is so blindsided and in the middle of the audacious murder of Joffrey at his own wedding, she’s standing there pondering all this with her other son, her sweet son. And her father comes in and basically says, “There is no way you’re going to have control over this kid” and takes him away. So she’s just empty. She’s decimated. What I said is what we just talked about. It’s just fleshing it out.
...

ElementFreak wrote:

tabascoboy wrote:

Malahide Mullet wrote:So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Agreed, the scene in the book is consensual with Cersei only seemingly worried about being discovered in flagrante. Having it as rape changes the dynamic completely. How will they work it later when Cersei sends for help to Jaime when she's arrested by the High Septon?

No, the full passage in the book seems pretty rapey IMO.

JAMIE CHAPTER ASOS
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.
But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this …”

ZappaMan wrote:I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.

Apr. 21st, 2014 04:52 pm (UTC)
Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
Hello Mr Martin,
Ludivan wrote:
Could you tell us what you think about the altar sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in last night episode, please ?
Many readers (and viewers) don't understand what happened and why they changed this sex scene into... a rape scene. Does they consult you before doing it ?

Thank you.

PS : Sorry for the bad english, it's not my language.

Absolute fucker responded:

Re: Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau's author program.

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Now, if you please, I'd appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.

ZappaMan wrote:I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.

ZappaMan wrote:I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.

Cartman wrote:That scene where they shot the arrows at Dany and Co was hilarious. Pew pew

Chuckles1188 wrote:A lot of people involved in the show seem to think it wasn't rape, which is pretty f**king weird. I'm starting to think we might have just seen the shark get jumped.

HighKingLeinster wrote:No spoilers
Changes to Jamie

I love Dany

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany

HighKingLeinster wrote:No spoilers
Changes to Jamie

I love Dany

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany

ZappaMan wrote:I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.

earl the beaver wrote:

HighKingLeinster wrote:No spoilers
Changes to Jamie

I love Dany

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany

She's meant to be 14 you sick fudge