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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:13 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Do you guys think that the showrunners played a cruel joke on the fans by killing Missendei instead of Greyworm? I'm sure everyone had Greyworm as certainty to die and probably one of the first and Missendei as a survivor.


the had 2 black actors on the show and only missandei was a voice of reason fo rDany so killing her was more apt due to teh Mad Queen storyline than Greyworm at that point, that said, its the ONLY reason why greyworm makes it alive in the series... he was the ONLY colored actor left on the show killing him would have pissed off SJW's :P

that said, the episode now has a 4.4/10 rating on IMDb, might go lower lol ( i gave it a 7 due to the drogon scene but thats about it)


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:38 pm 
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I enjoyed how it all panned out. Seemed fitting for what's come before. Some properly decent dialogue and character interactions as they gave themselves the breathing space to let stuff develop at the right pace.

I did chuckle at poor old Edmure. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:41 pm 
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Ed's still pissed.
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Why the Game of Thrones finale was so bad – and everything else that was wrong with the season
Ed Power

21 May 2019 • 6:47pm

Jon Snow mooched into a freezing sunset. Sansa smiled from her throne as her bannermen held aloft their swords (careful M’Lady – all that unsheathed steel is a health and safety hazard). Bran and his Small Council boys pretended they were in an early episode of Seinfeld. And as the credits finally rolled on Game of Thrones, many fans reckoned with the empty pit in their stomachs.

The expectation had been that the final ever episode of the fantasy saga would reduce diehards and casual viewers alike to a puddle of emotion. Sadness, joy, frustration, melancholy, quiet wonder… all running together like the blades from the Iron Throne as Drogon breathed dragonfire.

Instead a huge number of us came away feeling nothing. We had just watched Jon kill Daenerys, Sansa proclaim independence for the North and the Branbot 3000 somehow inveigle his way into ruling what remained of the Seven Kings. Yet so inept and underwhelming was the concluding series of Game of Thrones the impact of all of these supposedly seismic happenings was negligible. We had sat through ad-breaks that landed a heavier punch.

With more than one million fans signing a petition calling for the entire season to be reshot and the internet lurching catatonically from side to side with disappointment, it’s clear Game of Thrones’s big farewell has been a letdown for the ages. The more complicated question is how one of the smartest and most politically astute shows ever could bow out so shoddily.

Some of the reasons are relatively straightforward. Show runners David Benioff and DB Weiss rushed the conclusion, meaning character arcs that might have made sense if teased out – Daenerys’s plunge into madness for instance – felt like cheap manipulations in the moment.

Episode by episode it also became obvious that Benioff and Weiss were not nearly as invested in some of the key mysteries – the origins of the White Walkers, the secret of Jon’s parentage – as we had assumed. And with an influx of new viewers drawn by the spectacle of later seasons, there was also a schism between what veteran fans expected and what satisfied a more mainstream following. Pull up a pew then as, like Tywin gutting a symbolic Baratheon stag, we take a knife to Game of Thrones’ sad fadeout and diagnose what went wrong.

1. It was too rushed

At the end of season six, HBO was prepared to greenlight a further two 10-episode seasons. George RR Martin, author of the original novels, felt the series could run up 15 years to do justice to the story. But Benioff and Weiss were adamant that they needed just 73 episodes – which left two runs of seven and six instalments respectively.

Clearly they were in a hurry. The assumption is they were fed up of Game of Thrones and wanted to move on to their new Star Wars trilogy. Which is perhaps why series eight, in particular, felt so rushed. The war against the White Walkers was truncated into a spectacular yet incoherent single episode. And then Daenerys’s descent into insanity was fast-tracked so that it felt like a betrayal of the character (and of Emilia Clarke, and all of us watching at home).

2. Euron Greyjoy was a terrible character

Despite the noblest efforts of Danish actor Pilou Asbæk, the evil pirate princeling was far too broad for anything other than comic relief. Yet with the Walkers defeated he was expected to stand alongside Cersei as one of the main villains. Alas, he was a lewd bore – albeit one with a space-hopping fleet that could pop up out of the blue and effortlessly shoot a dragon out from the sky.

The crying shame was that, in giving us Euron, the Jack Sparrow ripoff, Benioff and Weiss deprived us of one of the most terrifying characters in the novels. “Book” Euron is a Lovecraftian warlock whose ship is populated with crew who have had their tongues cut and who sacrifices priests in order to cast spells. He also has a magic horn named Dragonbinder. Benioff and Weiss went with “finger up the bum” Euron instead.

3. The show didn’t know what to do with Cersei

Related to the above, ever since recasting her as the Mad Queen, Game of Thrones has lost sight of what made Cersei so compelling to begin with. She was at her finest in early seasons, such as when getting sloshed during the Battle of the Blackwater and outlining to Sansa all the horrible things that would befall them should Stannis prevail.

Having obliterated the Great Sept – apparently nobody cares if you destroy the equivalent of the Vatican – she became a smirking Deus Ex Machina and, in season eight, had just a handful of lines (most of which concerned the Golden Company and its non-existent elephants).

That was a misuse of the fantastic Lena Headey. But it also made for the odd dynamic whereby a wine-sipping scheming Queen was presented as a more daunting foe than the undead Night King. It simply didn’t sit right.

4. The White Walkers were a waste of time

“Winter is coming”. Actually no, Winter was only here for a quick visit and then it had packed up and headed north again. Of all the the season’s letdowns this, surely was the most egregious: killing off the Night King in just one episode.

The Long Night was a visual tour de force – provided you could see make it out (see below). But it also rushed the Others mystery – so central to the books and to earlier seasons – to a hasty end.

Worse yet, after the Big Bad was killed as he strode towards Bran, the show lost all interest in his motives or origins. Craster’s blue-eyed infants, the swirling patterns, the Night King staring down Jon at Hardhome. All was swept beneath the rug as Thrones asked us to forget about the Walkers and move on to the conflict that “really mattered” – between Daenerys and Cersei.

Well, no – this was supposed to be the fight that counted…the struggle for existence against an implacable foe. Turned out the Night King was plenty placable after all.

5. Arya killing the Night King was a cheat too far

An even bigger sin than kicking the Night King into touch at first opportunity having Arya deliver the fatal blow. Benioff and Weiss decided to make her the ultimate heroine three years ago – reportedly because they thought it would be “cool”. But it went against all the earlier foreshadowing of the intertwined fate of Jon and the Walkers. If not to save the realm of men, why had the Lord of Light brought Jon back from the dead? And why did the Night King lock eyes with him and him alone at Hardhome?

Who cares? It all went out the window and Arya was re-programmed by the series into a Jedi ninja warrior who could tiptoe through a phalanx of Walkers and launch herself from mid-air. The real insult, of course, was the attempt to pass off Melisandre’s “brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes,.. eyes you'll shut forever” prophecy to Arya as a prediction the Stark princess would slay the Night King (he has blue eyes …along with half the North). Here was the show treating us all like idiots.

6. The show betrayed its female characters

Daenerys was reduced to an insecure girlfriend with anger-management issues. Sansa became whiny, untrustworthy (how quickly she sold out Jon) and needlessly antagonistic towards other females. Arya, alone among Game of Thrones’s warriors and assassins, was completely dehumanised by the violent acts she had committed. Brienne was reduced to a sobbing spurned lover. And Cersei just stood around drinking wine. Even in its glory years, Game of Thrones could be problematic in its depiction of women (i.e. it wasn’t all that keen on them wearing clothes). But as the final curtain loomed it reduced these previously complex characters to a bundles of cliches, each strung out and rendered irrational by emotion.

7. It was too dark – or too quiet, or both

The Long Night was very long indeed if you had an average television set, with much of the episode swathed in darkness. Later cinematographer Fabian Wagner insisted it wasn’t too dark “because he shot it”. The Iron Throne finale for its part suffered sound issues early on. As Tyrion padded through the blasted King’s Landing it was difficult for many of us to make out what he was saying (subtitles rode to our rescue like Stannis against the Wildlings).

8. Too much Bronn

Yes, we all love Bronn. He swears, doesn’t stand on ceremony, the pace always picks up when he’s on screen. Nonetheless, his race had, from a narrative perspective, run its course by last season. And yet – reportedly because of his popularity with viewers – the character was shoe-horned back in for one last, foul-mouthed hurrah.

So he somehow eluded the entire Northern army to walk in on Jaime and Tyrion at Winterfell and wave a crossbow in their faces. They fobbed him off with the promise to make him Lord of Highgarden – capital of one of the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms. And then, inevitably, he was parachuted into the finale as Master of Coin on the Small Council. Here Game of Thrones entered the outer realms of cringe as Bronn and the rest of the gang discussed the urgent rebuilding of the King’s Landing brothels and Bran the Broken (really?) beamed like an eight year old who’d had too much ice-cream and was about to pass out from a sugar-crash.

9. The “two dragon problem” become insurmountable

Daenerys arrived in Westeros massively overpowered. A single dragon could obliterate an entire army – and she had three. The Night King and his magic javelin took care of Viserion. Yet even with just Drogon and Rhaegal, Daenerys presented an insurmountable obstacle.

That was a headache the series needed to think its way around. And, who knows, had it included “Book” Euron and his Dragonbinding horn, perhaps it could have come up with a convincing method of sidelining one of Daenerys’s troublesome children. But it didn’t so instead we got the instantly notorious scene in which Euron and his magic fleet materialised at Dragonstone and scored three straight hits on Rhaegal – the only occasion in the entirety of GoT a dragon was mortally struck by a crossbow.

10. George RR Martin didn’t provide a clear enough road-map

Furious fans are blaming Benioff and Weiss for fumbling the landing. But it’s been eight years since George RR Martin’s last A Song of Ice and Fire novel, A Dance With Dragons. In a blog post this week, he confirmed he was still working on follow-up The Winds of Winter, while declining to provide a definite release date.

Game of Thrones nosedived in quality once HBO ran out of books to adapt. Surely Martin must bear some of the responsibly for leaving his collaborators high and dry? Yes, he filled them in on crucial late-story plot points. Yet Thrones has always been as much about texture as narrative – and the former was desperately lacking through season eight.

11. Mad Queen Daenerys didn’t work

Daenerys has been a strict, even cruel ruler. But in her long journey from Pentos via the Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay to Westeros, she was always utterly in command of her emotions. So when the series surprised us with the Mad Queen storyline it felt shockingly unearned. Which again comes back to the season being rushed. Game of Thrones needed to set aside at least half a season to do justice to Daenerys’s plunge into madness. Anything less and her arc was doomed to feel cheap and chintzy – as was indeed the case.

12. Jon Snow might as well have taken the season off

“You know nothing Benioff and Weiss” is the best way of summing up the show’s take on the nominal hero of the tale. Jon Snow had across the previous seven season sbeen built up as the one to stop the Night King and complete what his father Rhaegar had begun by bringing peace to the realm.

Yet right at the end, the series sidelined him. He spent most of the year stomping around being useless – his only decisive action being to stab Daenerys. And he only did that because Tyrion essentially ordered him too. Absurdly, he wasn’t even in the running for King of Westeros – despite being the only legitimate heir. Instead, Tyrion, in manacles, suggested Bran because of his fantastic character development and Jon was exiled north to the non-existent Night’s Watch.

14. The production was sloppy

A coffee cup on a table in Winterfell, Samwell Tarly with bottled water under his chair – for all the supposed toil that goes into Game of Thrones this year the series was tellingly slipshod. And, Starbucks-gate aside, so many other details that didn’t add up either.

Why didn't Cersei simply shoot Daenerys and her allies when they turned up at the Gates of King’s Landing within crossbow range? How was it that Euron wasn’t alarmed that Tyrion seemed to know Cersei was pregnant (when Euron believed he was the father and the only one party to the secret)?

What had happened between the entirety of the Red Keep collapsing on Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion retrieving their bodies from beneath a light dusting of bricks? If Winter was coming, why was the outside of King’s Landing transformed into a desert? Again and again, Game of Thrones hand-waved way the inconsistencies with an insouciance disrespectful to the material and our investment in it.

15. The episode pacing was terrible

Episode one and two were devoted to our favourite characters hanging out at Winterfell, not really saying or doing much. Then the Long Night was dispensed with in a single episode – as was Daenerys’s transformation into Queen Cray Cray. Even allowing for the truncated series length, the last ever Game of Thrones season was all over the place in its pacing, which made it harder for viewers to lose themselves in the story.

16. Jaime was horribly betrayed

Across the previous seven seasons our heart had skipped several beats as Jaime progressed from floppy-haired cad to misunderstood anti-hero. Central to his journey was his friendship with Brienne, by which two damaged individuals were drawn to one another.

Thrones then threw all that out the window (sorry Bran, too soon). First Jaime and Brienne became a couple when it was always obvious theirs’s wasn’t that sort of relationship. And then, just for the heck of it, Jaime decided he was loyal to toxic twin Cersei after all. So he clopped back to King’s Landing, ending his journey right where it had begun.

17. The show had become addicted to spectacle

Early Game of Thrones seasons operated on a relative shoe-string. It didn’t matter because the story was multi-faceted, the dialogue gripping. But as audiences and budgets have soared, so Game of Thrones has become the very thing it was supposed to critique: the brainless genre blockbuster. Dragons twirled, CGI cities burned – and you yearned for the simple days of Cersei and Tyrion trading jabs over cups of wine.

18. Benioff and Weiss cannot write “smart” characters

“She’s the smartest person I know,” was how Arya describes Sansa to Jon. We don’t know the precise width of Arya’s social circle but it can’t be massive. Sansa’s political acumen, lest we forget, extended to alienating her ally Daenerys and immediately breaking her word to Jon to keep his parentage secret. If that’s Benioff and Weiss’s idea of clever, heaven knows what they consider stupid.

Tyrion and Varys meanwhile emerged as Westeros’s very own dumb and dumber. Tyrion refused to believe Daenerys was unstable until she was literally blitzing a city. Varys, to his credit, recognised her madness. But his response was to strut around informing people, animals and inanimate objects that he planned to betray her. George RR Martin can write “smart” – see Tywin Lannister. Benioff and Weiss, by contrast, think an intelligent character is someone who goes around telling everyone how clever they are.

19. Too much fan service

Cleganebowl shot in the FX-saturated style of a Star Wars prequel. Jokes about elephants. Bronn of the Bloody Blackwater. Benioff and Weiss were so eager to doff their hats to the internet mob they forget to also give us a memorable story.

21. Drogon stopped acting like a dragon

Jon killed Daenerys and Drogon responds by…melting the Iron Throne? As metaphor for the futility of Daenerys’s long struggle for power the spiky settee fit the bill perfectly. But Drogon is a dragon and if he thought Jon had killed Daenerys he was going to scorch him for it (regardless of Jon’s Targaryen blood).

22. There was no significance to Jon flying Rhaegal

Dragon-riding is the stuff of legend and in the books at least one character will come a-cropper daring to sit aside a great flaming beast. Not Jon Snow, who hopped on Rhaegal, wobbled around a bit and was suddenly a fully-qualified dragon-pilot. And this struck nobody as even slightly unusual. The only exception was Tormund, who brought it up at the post-Long Night feast. But even here the script’s laziness intruded. Who would dare ride a dragon wondered the Wildling, who rode a dragon escaping from the Night King the previous season.

23. The Dothraki and Unsullied were reduced to magical chess pieces

Daenerys’s warrior armies were sent to their death in the battle against the Walkers. But despite being slaughtered before our eyes they were back and ready for duty in time for the assault on King’s Landing. Moreover, following their Khaleesi’s shock assassination via mopey boyfriend, the Dothraki were happy to lark about doing nothing. Would these savage steppe warriors really have just sat on their hands after their queen had been butchered? At the very least they might have squeezed in a spot of recreational pillaging.

24. The dialogue was appalling

“I’m not questioning your honour, I'm denying its existence,” Tyrion told Janos Slynt in season two. By season eighth the Royal Imp was reduced to trading knob gags with Varys. All across Westeros, the standard of dialogue had plunged as Benioff and Weiss left Martin’s writing behind and were forced to make it up themselves. “I know a killer when I see one,” Arya told Jon in the finale as Daenerys walked away. As well you might Arya, considering Daenerys had just torched an entire city.

25. Westeros felt too small

Remember how long it took Robert, Ned and their retinues to journey from Winterfell to King’s Landing in series one? It feels so very long ago. Thrones had by the end shrunk the Seven Kingdoms down to just the Sansa and Jon in the North, Cersei in the South and Daenerys at Dragonstone. This vast realm had collapsed in on itself, so that Daenerys could grant Gendry lordship of Storm’s End without any thought as to who might actually be ruling Storm’s End at that moment. It didn’t matter because Storm’s End no longer felt like a real place. It was simply just another plot device to be manipulated by Benioff and Weiss.

26. Not enough people died at the right time, and in the right way

In the moment season eight’s second episode, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, was regarded as a high-point for Game of Thrones. How quickly its lustre faded as the characters with whom we spent time on the eve of their apparent deaths walked away from the conflict with the Walkers with nary a scratch. Weedy Sam, foolishly fearless Brienne, one-armed Jaime – all these and more were overrun by wights and Walkers only to come through it all unharmed.

Conversely, it would have been a real surprise had Jaime or Cersei made it through the sacking of King’s Landing. And we would at least have been spared their appalling death-by-falling masonry. From noble Ned on the chopping block to the Red Wedding, Game of Thrones was past master of the perfectly-timed bumping off. Yet at the end it botched the job of giving many of its most significant players the appropriate send-off.

27. Benioff and Weiss relied too much on themselves.

With the show-runners maintaining a tight grip on the series– they wrote four of the final six episodes – their flaws became its flaws. There were criticisms that they offed Missandei, one of the few none-white protagonists, too enthusiastically. And, as pointed out, their take on female characters was tone deaf. Most big American TV shows draw on expansive writers’s rooms. Benioff and Weiss might have benefitted from more collaborators off of whom they could bounce ideas.

28. The foreshadowing felt incredibly clumsy

In their post-broadcast interviews Benioff and Weiss trotted out prior events such as Daenerys’s cool response to the death of her loathsome brother, Viserys, as proof her madness had been there, glimmering in plain view all along. It didn’t convince.

Nor did Melisandre’s “blue eyes” prophecy to Arya – clearly intended to refer to her future as a killer of men, not of White Walkers. Meanwhile the genuine foreshadowing – especially of Jon as the Prince what was Promised – was revealed to be nothing other than misdirection. Game of Thrones left us feeling manipulated and short-changed. The show had ripped up all its earlier groundwork and was making it up as it went.

29. The tone was all over the place

One moment Jon was snogging/stabbing Daenerys and sobbing his big, puppy-dog eyes out. The next we had Edmure Tully clattering into objects and then Tyrion and Bronn trading whack-a-mole jibes at the Small Council. Tone is crucial in a heightened universe such as Westeros. This year Game of Thrones couldn’t decide to be a tragedy or a comedy.

30. Bran as King was the worst possible ending

Bran is barely human – yet alone fit for governance. And it hadn’t even occurred to anyone to nominate him until Tyrion, a prisoner pleading for his life, suggested it.

More worrying yet, if Bran, aka the Three-Eyed Raven, is as omnipotent as the show seems to believe, did he actually foresee all this coming to pass? Were the countless deaths and betrayals that went before, in other words, merely groundwork for his glorious ascent to power?

Also what happens when everyone else works out that, as the Three-Eyed Raven is essentially immortal, he’s going to be in the job a long, long time? Perhaps the lords of the Seven Kingdoms should have spent longer than five minutes deliberating who would rule them for the foreseeable future.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Someone needs a girlfriend.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:00 am 
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When I was 11 we had to write a story for English class. To cut a long story short the correct answer was WRITE THE END FIRST.



Everyone else is an idiot


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:13 am 
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MrJonno wrote:
When I was 11 we had to write a story for English class. To cut a long story short the correct answer was WRITE THE END FIRST.



Everyone else is an idiot


They had the end first (in that GRRM gave it to them). If anything the problem with this series was writing backwards too much.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:14 am 
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For those that missed the post credits scene, it went like this:

Davos stumbles through a frozen wilderness during a blizzard and arrives outside a tent

Davos: Jon! JON!
Jon: Ser Davos what are you doin ehre?
Davos: You have to go back!
Jon: I dunt want it
Davos: It's not that, you have to go back to Kings Landing, Drogon's returned, and he's brought company... *cocks shotgun*

Boom

"GAME OF THRONES 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
COMING 2020"


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 am 
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comets wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Do you guys think that the showrunners played a cruel joke on the fans by killing Missendei instead of Greyworm? I'm sure everyone had Greyworm as certainty to die and probably one of the first and Missendei as a survivor.


the had 2 black actors on the show and only missandei was a voice of reason fo rDany so killing her was more apt due to teh Mad Queen storyline than Greyworm at that point, that said, its the ONLY reason why greyworm makes it alive in the series... he was the ONLY colored actor left on the show killing him would have pissed off SJW's :P

that said, the episode now has a 4.4/10 rating on IMDb, might go lower lol ( i gave it a 7 due to the drogon scene but thats about it)


Yeah dany would be more prepared to lose grey worm because of his dangerous role, missendei would of caught her off guard as well, plus yeah she is more likely to be the voice of reason and mercy than greyworm.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
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Jon Snow really did become quite unlikeable in the last couple of seasons. Totally inept general on top of that. He was useless, didn't even seem much point to revive him.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:21 am 
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True Blue wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
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Jon Snow really did become quite unlikeable in the last couple of seasons. Totally inept general on top of that. He was useless, didn't even seem much point to revive him.


Comes back from the dead, still knows nothing, actually even less.

Gets saved by sansa and Ayra again.


Honestly by the end of the last two seasons I would not of minded at all if they killed off more characters. Kill Grey worm, kill Jon, have them both kill easy other, or be the cause of each others death, Kill Tyrion, Kill Ayra, Kill Sansa, sansa suddently becomes annoying again in the last season after growing on you, she starts off being really irritating has this character developement, grows on you then becomes irritating again. Kill Bran, hes all knowing yet does jack all, unless somehow his doctor strange act lets him know that in most cases if he tries to interfere makes things worse? The only time I think he does anything is being a jerk to meera which maybe saves her life by getting her out of winterfel unlikely to survive, and that being bait for the NK. Thats it, thats what Hordor held the door for.

Finally they killed that annoying uncle of the theons, It seemed the king of the dead carried a plague he was infected with himself, the plague of stupidity that swept westeros before he even came south of the wall.


Last edited by Harden up!!! on Wed May 22, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:28 am 
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Jon Snow's tactical school

Battle of the Bastards:

Charge headfirst into a superior force, die horribly except for Sansa saving his arse in the last moment.

Battle of Winterfell:

Have siege weapons in front of your troops. Have bulk of army outside the walls. Use your light calvary to charge headfirst into the unseen army, because that's totally the role of light calvary.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:35 am 
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True Blue wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
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Jon Snow really did become quite unlikeable in the last couple of seasons. Totally inept general on top of that. He was useless, didn't even seem much point to revive him.


The whole north seemed to become unlikable, except for tormund but he is the true north.

You are facing your doom, a fight you are unlikely to survive a whole group of people turn up to help you out at great personal risk to themselves you instantly dislike them, and treat them like shit, start conspiring against them, wtf? The north really is full of plum like the hound would say. Oh no thats because you can read their minds and the future and you know they are going to instantly turn bad!!!, Ok I would get the suspicion of the dothraki a culture that lives to plunder but come on. Things seem forced and rushed, like Danys decent into madbitch, they needed to ramp that up more in the previous seasons.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:53 am 
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When drogon melts the iron throne its really Bran warging into him, because he knows he does not want to sit on that horrid, uncomfortable thing ever, plus saving his cousins ass. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:53 am 
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True Blue wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
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Jon Snow really did become quite unlikeable in the last couple of seasons. Totally inept general on top of that. He was useless, didn't even seem much point to revive him.


He was unlikeable throughout the whole peice. Consistently dumb, only positive attribute was rousing speeches to his men. He was the Cheika of Westeros.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:35 am 
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Meanwhile...

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:45 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Meanwhile...

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I really hate Euron for interrupting her scene with Yara.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 am 
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Boobs not Moobs wrote:
Ed's still pissed.
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Quote:
Why the Game of Thrones finale was so bad – and everything else that was wrong with the season
Ed Power

21 May 2019 • 6:47pm

Jon Snow mooched into a freezing sunset. Sansa smiled from her throne as her bannermen held aloft their swords (careful M’Lady – all that unsheathed steel is a health and safety hazard). Bran and his Small Council boys pretended they were in an early episode of Seinfeld. And as the credits finally rolled on Game of Thrones, many fans reckoned with the empty pit in their stomachs.

The expectation had been that the final ever episode of the fantasy saga would reduce diehards and casual viewers alike to a puddle of emotion. Sadness, joy, frustration, melancholy, quiet wonder… all running together like the blades from the Iron Throne as Drogon breathed dragonfire.

Instead a huge number of us came away feeling nothing. We had just watched Jon kill Daenerys, Sansa proclaim independence for the North and the Branbot 3000 somehow inveigle his way into ruling what remained of the Seven Kings. Yet so inept and underwhelming was the concluding series of Game of Thrones the impact of all of these supposedly seismic happenings was negligible. We had sat through ad-breaks that landed a heavier punch.

With more than one million fans signing a petition calling for the entire season to be reshot and the internet lurching catatonically from side to side with disappointment, it’s clear Game of Thrones’s big farewell has been a letdown for the ages. The more complicated question is how one of the smartest and most politically astute shows ever could bow out so shoddily.

Some of the reasons are relatively straightforward. Show runners David Benioff and DB Weiss rushed the conclusion, meaning character arcs that might have made sense if teased out – Daenerys’s plunge into madness for instance – felt like cheap manipulations in the moment.

Episode by episode it also became obvious that Benioff and Weiss were not nearly as invested in some of the key mysteries – the origins of the White Walkers, the secret of Jon’s parentage – as we had assumed. And with an influx of new viewers drawn by the spectacle of later seasons, there was also a schism between what veteran fans expected and what satisfied a more mainstream following. Pull up a pew then as, like Tywin gutting a symbolic Baratheon stag, we take a knife to Game of Thrones’ sad fadeout and diagnose what went wrong.

1. It was too rushed

At the end of season six, HBO was prepared to greenlight a further two 10-episode seasons. George RR Martin, author of the original novels, felt the series could run up 15 years to do justice to the story. But Benioff and Weiss were adamant that they needed just 73 episodes – which left two runs of seven and six instalments respectively.

Clearly they were in a hurry. The assumption is they were fed up of Game of Thrones and wanted to move on to their new Star Wars trilogy. Which is perhaps why series eight, in particular, felt so rushed. The war against the White Walkers was truncated into a spectacular yet incoherent single episode. And then Daenerys’s descent into insanity was fast-tracked so that it felt like a betrayal of the character (and of Emilia Clarke, and all of us watching at home).

2. Euron Greyjoy was a terrible character

Despite the noblest efforts of Danish actor Pilou Asbæk, the evil pirate princeling was far too broad for anything other than comic relief. Yet with the Walkers defeated he was expected to stand alongside Cersei as one of the main villains. Alas, he was a lewd bore – albeit one with a space-hopping fleet that could pop up out of the blue and effortlessly shoot a dragon out from the sky.

The crying shame was that, in giving us Euron, the Jack Sparrow ripoff, Benioff and Weiss deprived us of one of the most terrifying characters in the novels. “Book” Euron is a Lovecraftian warlock whose ship is populated with crew who have had their tongues cut and who sacrifices priests in order to cast spells. He also has a magic horn named Dragonbinder. Benioff and Weiss went with “finger up the bum” Euron instead.

3. The show didn’t know what to do with Cersei

Related to the above, ever since recasting her as the Mad Queen, Game of Thrones has lost sight of what made Cersei so compelling to begin with. She was at her finest in early seasons, such as when getting sloshed during the Battle of the Blackwater and outlining to Sansa all the horrible things that would befall them should Stannis prevail.

Having obliterated the Great Sept – apparently nobody cares if you destroy the equivalent of the Vatican – she became a smirking Deus Ex Machina and, in season eight, had just a handful of lines (most of which concerned the Golden Company and its non-existent elephants).

That was a misuse of the fantastic Lena Headey. But it also made for the odd dynamic whereby a wine-sipping scheming Queen was presented as a more daunting foe than the undead Night King. It simply didn’t sit right.

4. The White Walkers were a waste of time

“Winter is coming”. Actually no, Winter was only here for a quick visit and then it had packed up and headed north again. Of all the the season’s letdowns this, surely was the most egregious: killing off the Night King in just one episode.

The Long Night was a visual tour de force – provided you could see make it out (see below). But it also rushed the Others mystery – so central to the books and to earlier seasons – to a hasty end.

Worse yet, after the Big Bad was killed as he strode towards Bran, the show lost all interest in his motives or origins. Craster’s blue-eyed infants, the swirling patterns, the Night King staring down Jon at Hardhome. All was swept beneath the rug as Thrones asked us to forget about the Walkers and move on to the conflict that “really mattered” – between Daenerys and Cersei.

Well, no – this was supposed to be the fight that counted…the struggle for existence against an implacable foe. Turned out the Night King was plenty placable after all.

5. Arya killing the Night King was a cheat too far

An even bigger sin than kicking the Night King into touch at first opportunity having Arya deliver the fatal blow. Benioff and Weiss decided to make her the ultimate heroine three years ago – reportedly because they thought it would be “cool”. But it went against all the earlier foreshadowing of the intertwined fate of Jon and the Walkers. If not to save the realm of men, why had the Lord of Light brought Jon back from the dead? And why did the Night King lock eyes with him and him alone at Hardhome?

Who cares? It all went out the window and Arya was re-programmed by the series into a Jedi ninja warrior who could tiptoe through a phalanx of Walkers and launch herself from mid-air. The real insult, of course, was the attempt to pass off Melisandre’s “brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes,.. eyes you'll shut forever” prophecy to Arya as a prediction the Stark princess would slay the Night King (he has blue eyes …along with half the North). Here was the show treating us all like idiots.

6. The show betrayed its female characters

Daenerys was reduced to an insecure girlfriend with anger-management issues. Sansa became whiny, untrustworthy (how quickly she sold out Jon) and needlessly antagonistic towards other females. Arya, alone among Game of Thrones’s warriors and assassins, was completely dehumanised by the violent acts she had committed. Brienne was reduced to a sobbing spurned lover. And Cersei just stood around drinking wine. Even in its glory years, Game of Thrones could be problematic in its depiction of women (i.e. it wasn’t all that keen on them wearing clothes). But as the final curtain loomed it reduced these previously complex characters to a bundles of cliches, each strung out and rendered irrational by emotion.

7. It was too dark – or too quiet, or both

The Long Night was very long indeed if you had an average television set, with much of the episode swathed in darkness. Later cinematographer Fabian Wagner insisted it wasn’t too dark “because he shot it”. The Iron Throne finale for its part suffered sound issues early on. As Tyrion padded through the blasted King’s Landing it was difficult for many of us to make out what he was saying (subtitles rode to our rescue like Stannis against the Wildlings).

8. Too much Bronn

Yes, we all love Bronn. He swears, doesn’t stand on ceremony, the pace always picks up when he’s on screen. Nonetheless, his race had, from a narrative perspective, run its course by last season. And yet – reportedly because of his popularity with viewers – the character was shoe-horned back in for one last, foul-mouthed hurrah.

So he somehow eluded the entire Northern army to walk in on Jaime and Tyrion at Winterfell and wave a crossbow in their faces. They fobbed him off with the promise to make him Lord of Highgarden – capital of one of the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms. And then, inevitably, he was parachuted into the finale as Master of Coin on the Small Council. Here Game of Thrones entered the outer realms of cringe as Bronn and the rest of the gang discussed the urgent rebuilding of the King’s Landing brothels and Bran the Broken (really?) beamed like an eight year old who’d had too much ice-cream and was about to pass out from a sugar-crash.

9. The “two dragon problem” become insurmountable

Daenerys arrived in Westeros massively overpowered. A single dragon could obliterate an entire army – and she had three. The Night King and his magic javelin took care of Viserion. Yet even with just Drogon and Rhaegal, Daenerys presented an insurmountable obstacle.

That was a headache the series needed to think its way around. And, who knows, had it included “Book” Euron and his Dragonbinding horn, perhaps it could have come up with a convincing method of sidelining one of Daenerys’s troublesome children. But it didn’t so instead we got the instantly notorious scene in which Euron and his magic fleet materialised at Dragonstone and scored three straight hits on Rhaegal – the only occasion in the entirety of GoT a dragon was mortally struck by a crossbow.

10. George RR Martin didn’t provide a clear enough road-map

Furious fans are blaming Benioff and Weiss for fumbling the landing. But it’s been eight years since George RR Martin’s last A Song of Ice and Fire novel, A Dance With Dragons. In a blog post this week, he confirmed he was still working on follow-up The Winds of Winter, while declining to provide a definite release date.

Game of Thrones nosedived in quality once HBO ran out of books to adapt. Surely Martin must bear some of the responsibly for leaving his collaborators high and dry? Yes, he filled them in on crucial late-story plot points. Yet Thrones has always been as much about texture as narrative – and the former was desperately lacking through season eight.

11. Mad Queen Daenerys didn’t work

Daenerys has been a strict, even cruel ruler. But in her long journey from Pentos via the Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay to Westeros, she was always utterly in command of her emotions. So when the series surprised us with the Mad Queen storyline it felt shockingly unearned. Which again comes back to the season being rushed. Game of Thrones needed to set aside at least half a season to do justice to Daenerys’s plunge into madness. Anything less and her arc was doomed to feel cheap and chintzy – as was indeed the case.

12. Jon Snow might as well have taken the season off

“You know nothing Benioff and Weiss” is the best way of summing up the show’s take on the nominal hero of the tale. Jon Snow had across the previous seven season sbeen built up as the one to stop the Night King and complete what his father Rhaegar had begun by bringing peace to the realm.

Yet right at the end, the series sidelined him. He spent most of the year stomping around being useless – his only decisive action being to stab Daenerys. And he only did that because Tyrion essentially ordered him too. Absurdly, he wasn’t even in the running for King of Westeros – despite being the only legitimate heir. Instead, Tyrion, in manacles, suggested Bran because of his fantastic character development and Jon was exiled north to the non-existent Night’s Watch.

14. The production was sloppy

A coffee cup on a table in Winterfell, Samwell Tarly with bottled water under his chair – for all the supposed toil that goes into Game of Thrones this year the series was tellingly slipshod. And, Starbucks-gate aside, so many other details that didn’t add up either.

Why didn't Cersei simply shoot Daenerys and her allies when they turned up at the Gates of King’s Landing within crossbow range? How was it that Euron wasn’t alarmed that Tyrion seemed to know Cersei was pregnant (when Euron believed he was the father and the only one party to the secret)?

What had happened between the entirety of the Red Keep collapsing on Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion retrieving their bodies from beneath a light dusting of bricks? If Winter was coming, why was the outside of King’s Landing transformed into a desert? Again and again, Game of Thrones hand-waved way the inconsistencies with an insouciance disrespectful to the material and our investment in it.

15. The episode pacing was terrible

Episode one and two were devoted to our favourite characters hanging out at Winterfell, not really saying or doing much. Then the Long Night was dispensed with in a single episode – as was Daenerys’s transformation into Queen Cray Cray. Even allowing for the truncated series length, the last ever Game of Thrones season was all over the place in its pacing, which made it harder for viewers to lose themselves in the story.

16. Jaime was horribly betrayed

Across the previous seven seasons our heart had skipped several beats as Jaime progressed from floppy-haired cad to misunderstood anti-hero. Central to his journey was his friendship with Brienne, by which two damaged individuals were drawn to one another.

Thrones then threw all that out the window (sorry Bran, too soon). First Jaime and Brienne became a couple when it was always obvious theirs’s wasn’t that sort of relationship. And then, just for the heck of it, Jaime decided he was loyal to toxic twin Cersei after all. So he clopped back to King’s Landing, ending his journey right where it had begun.

17. The show had become addicted to spectacle

Early Game of Thrones seasons operated on a relative shoe-string. It didn’t matter because the story was multi-faceted, the dialogue gripping. But as audiences and budgets have soared, so Game of Thrones has become the very thing it was supposed to critique: the brainless genre blockbuster. Dragons twirled, CGI cities burned – and you yearned for the simple days of Cersei and Tyrion trading jabs over cups of wine.

18. Benioff and Weiss cannot write “smart” characters

“She’s the smartest person I know,” was how Arya describes Sansa to Jon. We don’t know the precise width of Arya’s social circle but it can’t be massive. Sansa’s political acumen, lest we forget, extended to alienating her ally Daenerys and immediately breaking her word to Jon to keep his parentage secret. If that’s Benioff and Weiss’s idea of clever, heaven knows what they consider stupid.

Tyrion and Varys meanwhile emerged as Westeros’s very own dumb and dumber. Tyrion refused to believe Daenerys was unstable until she was literally blitzing a city. Varys, to his credit, recognised her madness. But his response was to strut around informing people, animals and inanimate objects that he planned to betray her. George RR Martin can write “smart” – see Tywin Lannister. Benioff and Weiss, by contrast, think an intelligent character is someone who goes around telling everyone how clever they are.

19. Too much fan service

Cleganebowl shot in the FX-saturated style of a Star Wars prequel. Jokes about elephants. Bronn of the Bloody Blackwater. Benioff and Weiss were so eager to doff their hats to the internet mob they forget to also give us a memorable story.

21. Drogon stopped acting like a dragon

Jon killed Daenerys and Drogon responds by…melting the Iron Throne? As metaphor for the futility of Daenerys’s long struggle for power the spiky settee fit the bill perfectly. But Drogon is a dragon and if he thought Jon had killed Daenerys he was going to scorch him for it (regardless of Jon’s Targaryen blood).

22. There was no significance to Jon flying Rhaegal

Dragon-riding is the stuff of legend and in the books at least one character will come a-cropper daring to sit aside a great flaming beast. Not Jon Snow, who hopped on Rhaegal, wobbled around a bit and was suddenly a fully-qualified dragon-pilot. And this struck nobody as even slightly unusual. The only exception was Tormund, who brought it up at the post-Long Night feast. But even here the script’s laziness intruded. Who would dare ride a dragon wondered the Wildling, who rode a dragon escaping from the Night King the previous season.

23. The Dothraki and Unsullied were reduced to magical chess pieces

Daenerys’s warrior armies were sent to their death in the battle against the Walkers. But despite being slaughtered before our eyes they were back and ready for duty in time for the assault on King’s Landing. Moreover, following their Khaleesi’s shock assassination via mopey boyfriend, the Dothraki were happy to lark about doing nothing. Would these savage steppe warriors really have just sat on their hands after their queen had been butchered? At the very least they might have squeezed in a spot of recreational pillaging.

24. The dialogue was appalling

“I’m not questioning your honour, I'm denying its existence,” Tyrion told Janos Slynt in season two. By season eighth the Royal Imp was reduced to trading knob gags with Varys. All across Westeros, the standard of dialogue had plunged as Benioff and Weiss left Martin’s writing behind and were forced to make it up themselves. “I know a killer when I see one,” Arya told Jon in the finale as Daenerys walked away. As well you might Arya, considering Daenerys had just torched an entire city.

25. Westeros felt too small

Remember how long it took Robert, Ned and their retinues to journey from Winterfell to King’s Landing in series one? It feels so very long ago. Thrones had by the end shrunk the Seven Kingdoms down to just the Sansa and Jon in the North, Cersei in the South and Daenerys at Dragonstone. This vast realm had collapsed in on itself, so that Daenerys could grant Gendry lordship of Storm’s End without any thought as to who might actually be ruling Storm’s End at that moment. It didn’t matter because Storm’s End no longer felt like a real place. It was simply just another plot device to be manipulated by Benioff and Weiss.

26. Not enough people died at the right time, and in the right way

In the moment season eight’s second episode, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, was regarded as a high-point for Game of Thrones. How quickly its lustre faded as the characters with whom we spent time on the eve of their apparent deaths walked away from the conflict with the Walkers with nary a scratch. Weedy Sam, foolishly fearless Brienne, one-armed Jaime – all these and more were overrun by wights and Walkers only to come through it all unharmed.

Conversely, it would have been a real surprise had Jaime or Cersei made it through the sacking of King’s Landing. And we would at least have been spared their appalling death-by-falling masonry. From noble Ned on the chopping block to the Red Wedding, Game of Thrones was past master of the perfectly-timed bumping off. Yet at the end it botched the job of giving many of its most significant players the appropriate send-off.

27. Benioff and Weiss relied too much on themselves.

With the show-runners maintaining a tight grip on the series– they wrote four of the final six episodes – their flaws became its flaws. There were criticisms that they offed Missandei, one of the few none-white protagonists, too enthusiastically. And, as pointed out, their take on female characters was tone deaf. Most big American TV shows draw on expansive writers’s rooms. Benioff and Weiss might have benefitted from more collaborators off of whom they could bounce ideas.

28. The foreshadowing felt incredibly clumsy

In their post-broadcast interviews Benioff and Weiss trotted out prior events such as Daenerys’s cool response to the death of her loathsome brother, Viserys, as proof her madness had been there, glimmering in plain view all along. It didn’t convince.

Nor did Melisandre’s “blue eyes” prophecy to Arya – clearly intended to refer to her future as a killer of men, not of White Walkers. Meanwhile the genuine foreshadowing – especially of Jon as the Prince what was Promised – was revealed to be nothing other than misdirection. Game of Thrones left us feeling manipulated and short-changed. The show had ripped up all its earlier groundwork and was making it up as it went.

29. The tone was all over the place

One moment Jon was snogging/stabbing Daenerys and sobbing his big, puppy-dog eyes out. The next we had Edmure Tully clattering into objects and then Tyrion and Bronn trading whack-a-mole jibes at the Small Council. Tone is crucial in a heightened universe such as Westeros. This year Game of Thrones couldn’t decide to be a tragedy or a comedy.

30. Bran as King was the worst possible ending

Bran is barely human – yet alone fit for governance. And it hadn’t even occurred to anyone to nominate him until Tyrion, a prisoner pleading for his life, suggested it.

More worrying yet, if Bran, aka the Three-Eyed Raven, is as omnipotent as the show seems to believe, did he actually foresee all this coming to pass? Were the countless deaths and betrayals that went before, in other words, merely groundwork for his glorious ascent to power?

Also what happens when everyone else works out that, as the Three-Eyed Raven is essentially immortal, he’s going to be in the job a long, long time? Perhaps the lords of the Seven Kingdoms should have spent longer than five minutes deliberating who would rule them for the foreseeable future.

Good netiquette to provide a link to the original article btw.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2019/05/ ... ng-season/

Broadly in agreement with all of it. His comment about the two writers not taking help is an interesting one.


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Why the Game of Thrones finale was so bad – and everything else that was wrong with the season
Ed Power

21 May 2019 • 6:47pm

Jon Snow mooched into a freezing sunset. Sansa smiled from her throne as her bannermen held aloft their swords (careful M’Lady – all that unsheathed steel is a health and safety hazard). Bran and his Small Council boys pretended they were in an early episode of Seinfeld. And as the credits finally rolled on Game of Thrones, many fans reckoned with the empty pit in their stomachs.

The expectation had been that the final ever episode of the fantasy saga would reduce diehards and casual viewers alike to a puddle of emotion. Sadness, joy, frustration, melancholy, quiet wonder… all running together like the blades from the Iron Throne as Drogon breathed dragonfire.

Instead a huge number of us came away feeling nothing. We had just watched Jon kill Daenerys, Sansa proclaim independence for the North and the Branbot 3000 somehow inveigle his way into ruling what remained of the Seven Kings. Yet so inept and underwhelming was the concluding series of Game of Thrones the impact of all of these supposedly seismic happenings was negligible. We had sat through ad-breaks that landed a heavier punch.

With more than one million fans signing a petition calling for the entire season to be reshot and the internet lurching catatonically from side to side with disappointment, it’s clear Game of Thrones’s big farewell has been a letdown for the ages. The more complicated question is how one of the smartest and most politically astute shows ever could bow out so shoddily.

Some of the reasons are relatively straightforward. Show runners David Benioff and DB Weiss rushed the conclusion, meaning character arcs that might have made sense if teased out – Daenerys’s plunge into madness for instance – felt like cheap manipulations in the moment.

Episode by episode it also became obvious that Benioff and Weiss were not nearly as invested in some of the key mysteries – the origins of the White Walkers, the secret of Jon’s parentage – as we had assumed. And with an influx of new viewers drawn by the spectacle of later seasons, there was also a schism between what veteran fans expected and what satisfied a more mainstream following. Pull up a pew then as, like Tywin gutting a symbolic Baratheon stag, we take a knife to Game of Thrones’ sad fadeout and diagnose what went wrong.

1. It was too rushed

At the end of season six, HBO was prepared to greenlight a further two 10-episode seasons. George RR Martin, author of the original novels, felt the series could run up 15 years to do justice to the story. But Benioff and Weiss were adamant that they needed just 73 episodes – which left two runs of seven and six instalments respectively.

Clearly they were in a hurry. The assumption is they were fed up of Game of Thrones and wanted to move on to their new Star Wars trilogy. Which is perhaps why series eight, in particular, felt so rushed. The war against the White Walkers was truncated into a spectacular yet incoherent single episode. And then Daenerys’s descent into insanity was fast-tracked so that it felt like a betrayal of the character (and of Emilia Clarke, and all of us watching at home).

2. Euron Greyjoy was a terrible character

Despite the noblest efforts of Danish actor Pilou Asbæk, the evil pirate princeling was far too broad for anything other than comic relief. Yet with the Walkers defeated he was expected to stand alongside Cersei as one of the main villains. Alas, he was a lewd bore – albeit one with a space-hopping fleet that could pop up out of the blue and effortlessly shoot a dragon out from the sky.

The crying shame was that, in giving us Euron, the Jack Sparrow ripoff, Benioff and Weiss deprived us of one of the most terrifying characters in the novels. “Book” Euron is a Lovecraftian warlock whose ship is populated with crew who have had their tongues cut and who sacrifices priests in order to cast spells. He also has a magic horn named Dragonbinder. Benioff and Weiss went with “finger up the bum” Euron instead.

3. The show didn’t know what to do with Cersei

Related to the above, ever since recasting her as the Mad Queen, Game of Thrones has lost sight of what made Cersei so compelling to begin with. She was at her finest in early seasons, such as when getting sloshed during the Battle of the Blackwater and outlining to Sansa all the horrible things that would befall them should Stannis prevail.

Having obliterated the Great Sept – apparently nobody cares if you destroy the equivalent of the Vatican – she became a smirking Deus Ex Machina and, in season eight, had just a handful of lines (most of which concerned the Golden Company and its non-existent elephants).

That was a misuse of the fantastic Lena Headey. But it also made for the odd dynamic whereby a wine-sipping scheming Queen was presented as a more daunting foe than the undead Night King. It simply didn’t sit right.

4. The White Walkers were a waste of time

“Winter is coming”. Actually no, Winter was only here for a quick visit and then it had packed up and headed north again. Of all the the season’s letdowns this, surely was the most egregious: killing off the Night King in just one episode.

The Long Night was a visual tour de force – provided you could see make it out (see below). But it also rushed the Others mystery – so central to the books and to earlier seasons – to a hasty end.

Worse yet, after the Big Bad was killed as he strode towards Bran, the show lost all interest in his motives or origins. Craster’s blue-eyed infants, the swirling patterns, the Night King staring down Jon at Hardhome. All was swept beneath the rug as Thrones asked us to forget about the Walkers and move on to the conflict that “really mattered” – between Daenerys and Cersei.

Well, no – this was supposed to be the fight that counted…the struggle for existence against an implacable foe. Turned out the Night King was plenty placable after all.

5. Arya killing the Night King was a cheat too far

An even bigger sin than kicking the Night King into touch at first opportunity having Arya deliver the fatal blow. Benioff and Weiss decided to make her the ultimate heroine three years ago – reportedly because they thought it would be “cool”. But it went against all the earlier foreshadowing of the intertwined fate of Jon and the Walkers. If not to save the realm of men, why had the Lord of Light brought Jon back from the dead? And why did the Night King lock eyes with him and him alone at Hardhome?

Who cares? It all went out the window and Arya was re-programmed by the series into a Jedi ninja warrior who could tiptoe through a phalanx of Walkers and launch herself from mid-air. The real insult, of course, was the attempt to pass off Melisandre’s “brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes,.. eyes you'll shut forever” prophecy to Arya as a prediction the Stark princess would slay the Night King (he has blue eyes …along with half the North). Here was the show treating us all like idiots.

6. The show betrayed its female characters

Daenerys was reduced to an insecure girlfriend with anger-management issues. Sansa became whiny, untrustworthy (how quickly she sold out Jon) and needlessly antagonistic towards other females. Arya, alone among Game of Thrones’s warriors and assassins, was completely dehumanised by the violent acts she had committed. Brienne was reduced to a sobbing spurned lover. And Cersei just stood around drinking wine. Even in its glory years, Game of Thrones could be problematic in its depiction of women (i.e. it wasn’t all that keen on them wearing clothes). But as the final curtain loomed it reduced these previously complex characters to a bundles of cliches, each strung out and rendered irrational by emotion.

7. It was too dark – or too quiet, or both

The Long Night was very long indeed if you had an average television set, with much of the episode swathed in darkness. Later cinematographer Fabian Wagner insisted it wasn’t too dark “because he shot it”. The Iron Throne finale for its part suffered sound issues early on. As Tyrion padded through the blasted King’s Landing it was difficult for many of us to make out what he was saying (subtitles rode to our rescue like Stannis against the Wildlings).

8. Too much Bronn

Yes, we all love Bronn. He swears, doesn’t stand on ceremony, the pace always picks up when he’s on screen. Nonetheless, his race had, from a narrative perspective, run its course by last season. And yet – reportedly because of his popularity with viewers – the character was shoe-horned back in for one last, foul-mouthed hurrah.

So he somehow eluded the entire Northern army to walk in on Jaime and Tyrion at Winterfell and wave a crossbow in their faces. They fobbed him off with the promise to make him Lord of Highgarden – capital of one of the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms. And then, inevitably, he was parachuted into the finale as Master of Coin on the Small Council. Here Game of Thrones entered the outer realms of cringe as Bronn and the rest of the gang discussed the urgent rebuilding of the King’s Landing brothels and Bran the Broken (really?) beamed like an eight year old who’d had too much ice-cream and was about to pass out from a sugar-crash.

9. The “two dragon problem” become insurmountable

Daenerys arrived in Westeros massively overpowered. A single dragon could obliterate an entire army – and she had three. The Night King and his magic javelin took care of Viserion. Yet even with just Drogon and Rhaegal, Daenerys presented an insurmountable obstacle.

That was a headache the series needed to think its way around. And, who knows, had it included “Book” Euron and his Dragonbinding horn, perhaps it could have come up with a convincing method of sidelining one of Daenerys’s troublesome children. But it didn’t so instead we got the instantly notorious scene in which Euron and his magic fleet materialised at Dragonstone and scored three straight hits on Rhaegal – the only occasion in the entirety of GoT a dragon was mortally struck by a crossbow.

10. George RR Martin didn’t provide a clear enough road-map

Furious fans are blaming Benioff and Weiss for fumbling the landing. But it’s been eight years since George RR Martin’s last A Song of Ice and Fire novel, A Dance With Dragons. In a blog post this week, he confirmed he was still working on follow-up The Winds of Winter, while declining to provide a definite release date.

Game of Thrones nosedived in quality once HBO ran out of books to adapt. Surely Martin must bear some of the responsibly for leaving his collaborators high and dry? Yes, he filled them in on crucial late-story plot points. Yet Thrones has always been as much about texture as narrative – and the former was desperately lacking through season eight.

11. Mad Queen Daenerys didn’t work

Daenerys has been a strict, even cruel ruler. But in her long journey from Pentos via the Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay to Westeros, she was always utterly in command of her emotions. So when the series surprised us with the Mad Queen storyline it felt shockingly unearned. Which again comes back to the season being rushed. Game of Thrones needed to set aside at least half a season to do justice to Daenerys’s plunge into madness. Anything less and her arc was doomed to feel cheap and chintzy – as was indeed the case.

12. Jon Snow might as well have taken the season off

“You know nothing Benioff and Weiss” is the best way of summing up the show’s take on the nominal hero of the tale. Jon Snow had across the previous seven season sbeen built up as the one to stop the Night King and complete what his father Rhaegar had begun by bringing peace to the realm.

Yet right at the end, the series sidelined him. He spent most of the year stomping around being useless – his only decisive action being to stab Daenerys. And he only did that because Tyrion essentially ordered him too. Absurdly, he wasn’t even in the running for King of Westeros – despite being the only legitimate heir. Instead, Tyrion, in manacles, suggested Bran because of his fantastic character development and Jon was exiled north to the non-existent Night’s Watch.

14. The production was sloppy

A coffee cup on a table in Winterfell, Samwell Tarly with bottled water under his chair – for all the supposed toil that goes into Game of Thrones this year the series was tellingly slipshod. And, Starbucks-gate aside, so many other details that didn’t add up either.

Why didn't Cersei simply shoot Daenerys and her allies when they turned up at the Gates of King’s Landing within crossbow range? How was it that Euron wasn’t alarmed that Tyrion seemed to know Cersei was pregnant (when Euron believed he was the father and the only one party to the secret)?

What had happened between the entirety of the Red Keep collapsing on Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion retrieving their bodies from beneath a light dusting of bricks? If Winter was coming, why was the outside of King’s Landing transformed into a desert? Again and again, Game of Thrones hand-waved way the inconsistencies with an insouciance disrespectful to the material and our investment in it.

15. The episode pacing was terrible

Episode one and two were devoted to our favourite characters hanging out at Winterfell, not really saying or doing much. Then the Long Night was dispensed with in a single episode – as was Daenerys’s transformation into Queen Cray Cray. Even allowing for the truncated series length, the last ever Game of Thrones season was all over the place in its pacing, which made it harder for viewers to lose themselves in the story.

16. Jaime was horribly betrayed

Across the previous seven seasons our heart had skipped several beats as Jaime progressed from floppy-haired cad to misunderstood anti-hero. Central to his journey was his friendship with Brienne, by which two damaged individuals were drawn to one another.

Thrones then threw all that out the window (sorry Bran, too soon). First Jaime and Brienne became a couple when it was always obvious theirs’s wasn’t that sort of relationship. And then, just for the heck of it, Jaime decided he was loyal to toxic twin Cersei after all. So he clopped back to King’s Landing, ending his journey right where it had begun.

17. The show had become addicted to spectacle

Early Game of Thrones seasons operated on a relative shoe-string. It didn’t matter because the story was multi-faceted, the dialogue gripping. But as audiences and budgets have soared, so Game of Thrones has become the very thing it was supposed to critique: the brainless genre blockbuster. Dragons twirled, CGI cities burned – and you yearned for the simple days of Cersei and Tyrion trading jabs over cups of wine.

18. Benioff and Weiss cannot write “smart” characters

“She’s the smartest person I know,” was how Arya describes Sansa to Jon. We don’t know the precise width of Arya’s social circle but it can’t be massive. Sansa’s political acumen, lest we forget, extended to alienating her ally Daenerys and immediately breaking her word to Jon to keep his parentage secret. If that’s Benioff and Weiss’s idea of clever, heaven knows what they consider stupid.

Tyrion and Varys meanwhile emerged as Westeros’s very own dumb and dumber. Tyrion refused to believe Daenerys was unstable until she was literally blitzing a city. Varys, to his credit, recognised her madness. But his response was to strut around informing people, animals and inanimate objects that he planned to betray her. George RR Martin can write “smart” – see Tywin Lannister. Benioff and Weiss, by contrast, think an intelligent character is someone who goes around telling everyone how clever they are.

19. Too much fan service

Cleganebowl shot in the FX-saturated style of a Star Wars prequel. Jokes about elephants. Bronn of the Bloody Blackwater. Benioff and Weiss were so eager to doff their hats to the internet mob they forget to also give us a memorable story.

21. Drogon stopped acting like a dragon

Jon killed Daenerys and Drogon responds by…melting the Iron Throne? As metaphor for the futility of Daenerys’s long struggle for power the spiky settee fit the bill perfectly. But Drogon is a dragon and if he thought Jon had killed Daenerys he was going to scorch him for it (regardless of Jon’s Targaryen blood).

22. There was no significance to Jon flying Rhaegal

Dragon-riding is the stuff of legend and in the books at least one character will come a-cropper daring to sit aside a great flaming beast. Not Jon Snow, who hopped on Rhaegal, wobbled around a bit and was suddenly a fully-qualified dragon-pilot. And this struck nobody as even slightly unusual. The only exception was Tormund, who brought it up at the post-Long Night feast. But even here the script’s laziness intruded. Who would dare ride a dragon wondered the Wildling, who rode a dragon escaping from the Night King the previous season.

23. The Dothraki and Unsullied were reduced to magical chess pieces

Daenerys’s warrior armies were sent to their death in the battle against the Walkers. But despite being slaughtered before our eyes they were back and ready for duty in time for the assault on King’s Landing. Moreover, following their Khaleesi’s shock assassination via mopey boyfriend, the Dothraki were happy to lark about doing nothing. Would these savage steppe warriors really have just sat on their hands after their queen had been butchered? At the very least they might have squeezed in a spot of recreational pillaging.

24. The dialogue was appalling

“I’m not questioning your honour, I'm denying its existence,” Tyrion told Janos Slynt in season two. By season eighth the Royal Imp was reduced to trading knob gags with Varys. All across Westeros, the standard of dialogue had plunged as Benioff and Weiss left Martin’s writing behind and were forced to make it up themselves. “I know a killer when I see one,” Arya told Jon in the finale as Daenerys walked away. As well you might Arya, considering Daenerys had just torched an entire city.

25. Westeros felt too small

Remember how long it took Robert, Ned and their retinues to journey from Winterfell to King’s Landing in series one? It feels so very long ago. Thrones had by the end shrunk the Seven Kingdoms down to just the Sansa and Jon in the North, Cersei in the South and Daenerys at Dragonstone. This vast realm had collapsed in on itself, so that Daenerys could grant Gendry lordship of Storm’s End without any thought as to who might actually be ruling Storm’s End at that moment. It didn’t matter because Storm’s End no longer felt like a real place. It was simply just another plot device to be manipulated by Benioff and Weiss.

26. Not enough people died at the right time, and in the right way

In the moment season eight’s second episode, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, was regarded as a high-point for Game of Thrones. How quickly its lustre faded as the characters with whom we spent time on the eve of their apparent deaths walked away from the conflict with the Walkers with nary a scratch. Weedy Sam, foolishly fearless Brienne, one-armed Jaime – all these and more were overrun by wights and Walkers only to come through it all unharmed.

Conversely, it would have been a real surprise had Jaime or Cersei made it through the sacking of King’s Landing. And we would at least have been spared their appalling death-by-falling masonry. From noble Ned on the chopping block to the Red Wedding, Game of Thrones was past master of the perfectly-timed bumping off. Yet at the end it botched the job of giving many of its most significant players the appropriate send-off.

27. Benioff and Weiss relied too much on themselves.

With the show-runners maintaining a tight grip on the series– they wrote four of the final six episodes – their flaws became its flaws. There were criticisms that they offed Missandei, one of the few none-white protagonists, too enthusiastically. And, as pointed out, their take on female characters was tone deaf. Most big American TV shows draw on expansive writers’s rooms. Benioff and Weiss might have benefitted from more collaborators off of whom they could bounce ideas.

28. The foreshadowing felt incredibly clumsy

In their post-broadcast interviews Benioff and Weiss trotted out prior events such as Daenerys’s cool response to the death of her loathsome brother, Viserys, as proof her madness had been there, glimmering in plain view all along. It didn’t convince.

Nor did Melisandre’s “blue eyes” prophecy to Arya – clearly intended to refer to her future as a killer of men, not of White Walkers. Meanwhile the genuine foreshadowing – especially of Jon as the Prince what was Promised – was revealed to be nothing other than misdirection. Game of Thrones left us feeling manipulated and short-changed. The show had ripped up all its earlier groundwork and was making it up as it went.

29. The tone was all over the place

One moment Jon was snogging/stabbing Daenerys and sobbing his big, puppy-dog eyes out. The next we had Edmure Tully clattering into objects and then Tyrion and Bronn trading whack-a-mole jibes at the Small Council. Tone is crucial in a heightened universe such as Westeros. This year Game of Thrones couldn’t decide to be a tragedy or a comedy.

30. Bran as King was the worst possible ending

Bran is barely human – yet alone fit for governance. And it hadn’t even occurred to anyone to nominate him until Tyrion, a prisoner pleading for his life, suggested it.

More worrying yet, if Bran, aka the Three-Eyed Raven, is as omnipotent as the show seems to believe, did he actually foresee all this coming to pass? Were the countless deaths and betrayals that went before, in other words, merely groundwork for his glorious ascent to power?

Also what happens when everyone else works out that, as the Three-Eyed Raven is essentially immortal, he’s going to be in the job a long, long time? Perhaps the lords of the Seven Kingdoms should have spent longer than five minutes deliberating who would rule them for the foreseeable future.

Good netiquette to provide a link to the original article btw.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2019/05/ ... ng-season/

Broadly in agreement with all of it. His comment about the two writers not taking help is an interesting one.



I agree. Also from the various video clips of GRRM and them, they seem to have thought the TVs success was actually down to them because they had a couple of post book successful episodes, ignoring more and more of GRRMs input. They kinda forgot they were TV writers of little note prior to GOTs. I suppose that Disney money also clouded their judgement and inflated their egos.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:52 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Meanwhile...

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I really hate Euron for interrupting her scene with Yara.


:thumbup:

that is where the hatred began


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:00 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
Ed's still pissed.
Spoiler: show
Quote:
Why the Game of Thrones finale was so bad – and everything else that was wrong with the season
Ed Power

21 May 2019 • 6:47pm

Jon Snow mooched into a freezing sunset. Sansa smiled from her throne as her bannermen held aloft their swords (careful M’Lady – all that unsheathed steel is a health and safety hazard). Bran and his Small Council boys pretended they were in an early episode of Seinfeld. And as the credits finally rolled on Game of Thrones, many fans reckoned with the empty pit in their stomachs.

The expectation had been that the final ever episode of the fantasy saga would reduce diehards and casual viewers alike to a puddle of emotion. Sadness, joy, frustration, melancholy, quiet wonder… all running together like the blades from the Iron Throne as Drogon breathed dragonfire.

Instead a huge number of us came away feeling nothing. We had just watched Jon kill Daenerys, Sansa proclaim independence for the North and the Branbot 3000 somehow inveigle his way into ruling what remained of the Seven Kings. Yet so inept and underwhelming was the concluding series of Game of Thrones the impact of all of these supposedly seismic happenings was negligible. We had sat through ad-breaks that landed a heavier punch.

With more than one million fans signing a petition calling for the entire season to be reshot and the internet lurching catatonically from side to side with disappointment, it’s clear Game of Thrones’s big farewell has been a letdown for the ages. The more complicated question is how one of the smartest and most politically astute shows ever could bow out so shoddily.

Some of the reasons are relatively straightforward. Show runners David Benioff and DB Weiss rushed the conclusion, meaning character arcs that might have made sense if teased out – Daenerys’s plunge into madness for instance – felt like cheap manipulations in the moment.

Episode by episode it also became obvious that Benioff and Weiss were not nearly as invested in some of the key mysteries – the origins of the White Walkers, the secret of Jon’s parentage – as we had assumed. And with an influx of new viewers drawn by the spectacle of later seasons, there was also a schism between what veteran fans expected and what satisfied a more mainstream following. Pull up a pew then as, like Tywin gutting a symbolic Baratheon stag, we take a knife to Game of Thrones’ sad fadeout and diagnose what went wrong.

1. It was too rushed

At the end of season six, HBO was prepared to greenlight a further two 10-episode seasons. George RR Martin, author of the original novels, felt the series could run up 15 years to do justice to the story. But Benioff and Weiss were adamant that they needed just 73 episodes – which left two runs of seven and six instalments respectively.

Clearly they were in a hurry. The assumption is they were fed up of Game of Thrones and wanted to move on to their new Star Wars trilogy. Which is perhaps why series eight, in particular, felt so rushed. The war against the White Walkers was truncated into a spectacular yet incoherent single episode. And then Daenerys’s descent into insanity was fast-tracked so that it felt like a betrayal of the character (and of Emilia Clarke, and all of us watching at home).

2. Euron Greyjoy was a terrible character

Despite the noblest efforts of Danish actor Pilou Asbæk, the evil pirate princeling was far too broad for anything other than comic relief. Yet with the Walkers defeated he was expected to stand alongside Cersei as one of the main villains. Alas, he was a lewd bore – albeit one with a space-hopping fleet that could pop up out of the blue and effortlessly shoot a dragon out from the sky.

The crying shame was that, in giving us Euron, the Jack Sparrow ripoff, Benioff and Weiss deprived us of one of the most terrifying characters in the novels. “Book” Euron is a Lovecraftian warlock whose ship is populated with crew who have had their tongues cut and who sacrifices priests in order to cast spells. He also has a magic horn named Dragonbinder. Benioff and Weiss went with “finger up the bum” Euron instead.

3. The show didn’t know what to do with Cersei

Related to the above, ever since recasting her as the Mad Queen, Game of Thrones has lost sight of what made Cersei so compelling to begin with. She was at her finest in early seasons, such as when getting sloshed during the Battle of the Blackwater and outlining to Sansa all the horrible things that would befall them should Stannis prevail.

Having obliterated the Great Sept – apparently nobody cares if you destroy the equivalent of the Vatican – she became a smirking Deus Ex Machina and, in season eight, had just a handful of lines (most of which concerned the Golden Company and its non-existent elephants).

That was a misuse of the fantastic Lena Headey. But it also made for the odd dynamic whereby a wine-sipping scheming Queen was presented as a more daunting foe than the undead Night King. It simply didn’t sit right.

4. The White Walkers were a waste of time

“Winter is coming”. Actually no, Winter was only here for a quick visit and then it had packed up and headed north again. Of all the the season’s letdowns this, surely was the most egregious: killing off the Night King in just one episode.

The Long Night was a visual tour de force – provided you could see make it out (see below). But it also rushed the Others mystery – so central to the books and to earlier seasons – to a hasty end.

Worse yet, after the Big Bad was killed as he strode towards Bran, the show lost all interest in his motives or origins. Craster’s blue-eyed infants, the swirling patterns, the Night King staring down Jon at Hardhome. All was swept beneath the rug as Thrones asked us to forget about the Walkers and move on to the conflict that “really mattered” – between Daenerys and Cersei.

Well, no – this was supposed to be the fight that counted…the struggle for existence against an implacable foe. Turned out the Night King was plenty placable after all.

5. Arya killing the Night King was a cheat too far

An even bigger sin than kicking the Night King into touch at first opportunity having Arya deliver the fatal blow. Benioff and Weiss decided to make her the ultimate heroine three years ago – reportedly because they thought it would be “cool”. But it went against all the earlier foreshadowing of the intertwined fate of Jon and the Walkers. If not to save the realm of men, why had the Lord of Light brought Jon back from the dead? And why did the Night King lock eyes with him and him alone at Hardhome?

Who cares? It all went out the window and Arya was re-programmed by the series into a Jedi ninja warrior who could tiptoe through a phalanx of Walkers and launch herself from mid-air. The real insult, of course, was the attempt to pass off Melisandre’s “brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes,.. eyes you'll shut forever” prophecy to Arya as a prediction the Stark princess would slay the Night King (he has blue eyes …along with half the North). Here was the show treating us all like idiots.

6. The show betrayed its female characters

Daenerys was reduced to an insecure girlfriend with anger-management issues. Sansa became whiny, untrustworthy (how quickly she sold out Jon) and needlessly antagonistic towards other females. Arya, alone among Game of Thrones’s warriors and assassins, was completely dehumanised by the violent acts she had committed. Brienne was reduced to a sobbing spurned lover. And Cersei just stood around drinking wine. Even in its glory years, Game of Thrones could be problematic in its depiction of women (i.e. it wasn’t all that keen on them wearing clothes). But as the final curtain loomed it reduced these previously complex characters to a bundles of cliches, each strung out and rendered irrational by emotion.

7. It was too dark – or too quiet, or both

The Long Night was very long indeed if you had an average television set, with much of the episode swathed in darkness. Later cinematographer Fabian Wagner insisted it wasn’t too dark “because he shot it”. The Iron Throne finale for its part suffered sound issues early on. As Tyrion padded through the blasted King’s Landing it was difficult for many of us to make out what he was saying (subtitles rode to our rescue like Stannis against the Wildlings).

8. Too much Bronn

Yes, we all love Bronn. He swears, doesn’t stand on ceremony, the pace always picks up when he’s on screen. Nonetheless, his race had, from a narrative perspective, run its course by last season. And yet – reportedly because of his popularity with viewers – the character was shoe-horned back in for one last, foul-mouthed hurrah.

So he somehow eluded the entire Northern army to walk in on Jaime and Tyrion at Winterfell and wave a crossbow in their faces. They fobbed him off with the promise to make him Lord of Highgarden – capital of one of the most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms. And then, inevitably, he was parachuted into the finale as Master of Coin on the Small Council. Here Game of Thrones entered the outer realms of cringe as Bronn and the rest of the gang discussed the urgent rebuilding of the King’s Landing brothels and Bran the Broken (really?) beamed like an eight year old who’d had too much ice-cream and was about to pass out from a sugar-crash.

9. The “two dragon problem” become insurmountable

Daenerys arrived in Westeros massively overpowered. A single dragon could obliterate an entire army – and she had three. The Night King and his magic javelin took care of Viserion. Yet even with just Drogon and Rhaegal, Daenerys presented an insurmountable obstacle.

That was a headache the series needed to think its way around. And, who knows, had it included “Book” Euron and his Dragonbinding horn, perhaps it could have come up with a convincing method of sidelining one of Daenerys’s troublesome children. But it didn’t so instead we got the instantly notorious scene in which Euron and his magic fleet materialised at Dragonstone and scored three straight hits on Rhaegal – the only occasion in the entirety of GoT a dragon was mortally struck by a crossbow.

10. George RR Martin didn’t provide a clear enough road-map

Furious fans are blaming Benioff and Weiss for fumbling the landing. But it’s been eight years since George RR Martin’s last A Song of Ice and Fire novel, A Dance With Dragons. In a blog post this week, he confirmed he was still working on follow-up The Winds of Winter, while declining to provide a definite release date.

Game of Thrones nosedived in quality once HBO ran out of books to adapt. Surely Martin must bear some of the responsibly for leaving his collaborators high and dry? Yes, he filled them in on crucial late-story plot points. Yet Thrones has always been as much about texture as narrative – and the former was desperately lacking through season eight.

11. Mad Queen Daenerys didn’t work

Daenerys has been a strict, even cruel ruler. But in her long journey from Pentos via the Dothraki Sea and Slavers Bay to Westeros, she was always utterly in command of her emotions. So when the series surprised us with the Mad Queen storyline it felt shockingly unearned. Which again comes back to the season being rushed. Game of Thrones needed to set aside at least half a season to do justice to Daenerys’s plunge into madness. Anything less and her arc was doomed to feel cheap and chintzy – as was indeed the case.

12. Jon Snow might as well have taken the season off

“You know nothing Benioff and Weiss” is the best way of summing up the show’s take on the nominal hero of the tale. Jon Snow had across the previous seven season sbeen built up as the one to stop the Night King and complete what his father Rhaegar had begun by bringing peace to the realm.

Yet right at the end, the series sidelined him. He spent most of the year stomping around being useless – his only decisive action being to stab Daenerys. And he only did that because Tyrion essentially ordered him too. Absurdly, he wasn’t even in the running for King of Westeros – despite being the only legitimate heir. Instead, Tyrion, in manacles, suggested Bran because of his fantastic character development and Jon was exiled north to the non-existent Night’s Watch.

14. The production was sloppy

A coffee cup on a table in Winterfell, Samwell Tarly with bottled water under his chair – for all the supposed toil that goes into Game of Thrones this year the series was tellingly slipshod. And, Starbucks-gate aside, so many other details that didn’t add up either.

Why didn't Cersei simply shoot Daenerys and her allies when they turned up at the Gates of King’s Landing within crossbow range? How was it that Euron wasn’t alarmed that Tyrion seemed to know Cersei was pregnant (when Euron believed he was the father and the only one party to the secret)?

What had happened between the entirety of the Red Keep collapsing on Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion retrieving their bodies from beneath a light dusting of bricks? If Winter was coming, why was the outside of King’s Landing transformed into a desert? Again and again, Game of Thrones hand-waved way the inconsistencies with an insouciance disrespectful to the material and our investment in it.

15. The episode pacing was terrible

Episode one and two were devoted to our favourite characters hanging out at Winterfell, not really saying or doing much. Then the Long Night was dispensed with in a single episode – as was Daenerys’s transformation into Queen Cray Cray. Even allowing for the truncated series length, the last ever Game of Thrones season was all over the place in its pacing, which made it harder for viewers to lose themselves in the story.

16. Jaime was horribly betrayed

Across the previous seven seasons our heart had skipped several beats as Jaime progressed from floppy-haired cad to misunderstood anti-hero. Central to his journey was his friendship with Brienne, by which two damaged individuals were drawn to one another.

Thrones then threw all that out the window (sorry Bran, too soon). First Jaime and Brienne became a couple when it was always obvious theirs’s wasn’t that sort of relationship. And then, just for the heck of it, Jaime decided he was loyal to toxic twin Cersei after all. So he clopped back to King’s Landing, ending his journey right where it had begun.

17. The show had become addicted to spectacle

Early Game of Thrones seasons operated on a relative shoe-string. It didn’t matter because the story was multi-faceted, the dialogue gripping. But as audiences and budgets have soared, so Game of Thrones has become the very thing it was supposed to critique: the brainless genre blockbuster. Dragons twirled, CGI cities burned – and you yearned for the simple days of Cersei and Tyrion trading jabs over cups of wine.

18. Benioff and Weiss cannot write “smart” characters

“She’s the smartest person I know,” was how Arya describes Sansa to Jon. We don’t know the precise width of Arya’s social circle but it can’t be massive. Sansa’s political acumen, lest we forget, extended to alienating her ally Daenerys and immediately breaking her word to Jon to keep his parentage secret. If that’s Benioff and Weiss’s idea of clever, heaven knows what they consider stupid.

Tyrion and Varys meanwhile emerged as Westeros’s very own dumb and dumber. Tyrion refused to believe Daenerys was unstable until she was literally blitzing a city. Varys, to his credit, recognised her madness. But his response was to strut around informing people, animals and inanimate objects that he planned to betray her. George RR Martin can write “smart” – see Tywin Lannister. Benioff and Weiss, by contrast, think an intelligent character is someone who goes around telling everyone how clever they are.

19. Too much fan service

Cleganebowl shot in the FX-saturated style of a Star Wars prequel. Jokes about elephants. Bronn of the Bloody Blackwater. Benioff and Weiss were so eager to doff their hats to the internet mob they forget to also give us a memorable story.

21. Drogon stopped acting like a dragon

Jon killed Daenerys and Drogon responds by…melting the Iron Throne? As metaphor for the futility of Daenerys’s long struggle for power the spiky settee fit the bill perfectly. But Drogon is a dragon and if he thought Jon had killed Daenerys he was going to scorch him for it (regardless of Jon’s Targaryen blood).

22. There was no significance to Jon flying Rhaegal

Dragon-riding is the stuff of legend and in the books at least one character will come a-cropper daring to sit aside a great flaming beast. Not Jon Snow, who hopped on Rhaegal, wobbled around a bit and was suddenly a fully-qualified dragon-pilot. And this struck nobody as even slightly unusual. The only exception was Tormund, who brought it up at the post-Long Night feast. But even here the script’s laziness intruded. Who would dare ride a dragon wondered the Wildling, who rode a dragon escaping from the Night King the previous season.

23. The Dothraki and Unsullied were reduced to magical chess pieces

Daenerys’s warrior armies were sent to their death in the battle against the Walkers. But despite being slaughtered before our eyes they were back and ready for duty in time for the assault on King’s Landing. Moreover, following their Khaleesi’s shock assassination via mopey boyfriend, the Dothraki were happy to lark about doing nothing. Would these savage steppe warriors really have just sat on their hands after their queen had been butchered? At the very least they might have squeezed in a spot of recreational pillaging.

24. The dialogue was appalling

“I’m not questioning your honour, I'm denying its existence,” Tyrion told Janos Slynt in season two. By season eighth the Royal Imp was reduced to trading knob gags with Varys. All across Westeros, the standard of dialogue had plunged as Benioff and Weiss left Martin’s writing behind and were forced to make it up themselves. “I know a killer when I see one,” Arya told Jon in the finale as Daenerys walked away. As well you might Arya, considering Daenerys had just torched an entire city.

25. Westeros felt too small

Remember how long it took Robert, Ned and their retinues to journey from Winterfell to King’s Landing in series one? It feels so very long ago. Thrones had by the end shrunk the Seven Kingdoms down to just the Sansa and Jon in the North, Cersei in the South and Daenerys at Dragonstone. This vast realm had collapsed in on itself, so that Daenerys could grant Gendry lordship of Storm’s End without any thought as to who might actually be ruling Storm’s End at that moment. It didn’t matter because Storm’s End no longer felt like a real place. It was simply just another plot device to be manipulated by Benioff and Weiss.

26. Not enough people died at the right time, and in the right way

In the moment season eight’s second episode, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, was regarded as a high-point for Game of Thrones. How quickly its lustre faded as the characters with whom we spent time on the eve of their apparent deaths walked away from the conflict with the Walkers with nary a scratch. Weedy Sam, foolishly fearless Brienne, one-armed Jaime – all these and more were overrun by wights and Walkers only to come through it all unharmed.

Conversely, it would have been a real surprise had Jaime or Cersei made it through the sacking of King’s Landing. And we would at least have been spared their appalling death-by-falling masonry. From noble Ned on the chopping block to the Red Wedding, Game of Thrones was past master of the perfectly-timed bumping off. Yet at the end it botched the job of giving many of its most significant players the appropriate send-off.

27. Benioff and Weiss relied too much on themselves.

With the show-runners maintaining a tight grip on the series– they wrote four of the final six episodes – their flaws became its flaws. There were criticisms that they offed Missandei, one of the few none-white protagonists, too enthusiastically. And, as pointed out, their take on female characters was tone deaf. Most big American TV shows draw on expansive writers’s rooms. Benioff and Weiss might have benefitted from more collaborators off of whom they could bounce ideas.

28. The foreshadowing felt incredibly clumsy

In their post-broadcast interviews Benioff and Weiss trotted out prior events such as Daenerys’s cool response to the death of her loathsome brother, Viserys, as proof her madness had been there, glimmering in plain view all along. It didn’t convince.

Nor did Melisandre’s “blue eyes” prophecy to Arya – clearly intended to refer to her future as a killer of men, not of White Walkers. Meanwhile the genuine foreshadowing – especially of Jon as the Prince what was Promised – was revealed to be nothing other than misdirection. Game of Thrones left us feeling manipulated and short-changed. The show had ripped up all its earlier groundwork and was making it up as it went.

29. The tone was all over the place

One moment Jon was snogging/stabbing Daenerys and sobbing his big, puppy-dog eyes out. The next we had Edmure Tully clattering into objects and then Tyrion and Bronn trading whack-a-mole jibes at the Small Council. Tone is crucial in a heightened universe such as Westeros. This year Game of Thrones couldn’t decide to be a tragedy or a comedy.

30. Bran as King was the worst possible ending

Bran is barely human – yet alone fit for governance. And it hadn’t even occurred to anyone to nominate him until Tyrion, a prisoner pleading for his life, suggested it.

More worrying yet, if Bran, aka the Three-Eyed Raven, is as omnipotent as the show seems to believe, did he actually foresee all this coming to pass? Were the countless deaths and betrayals that went before, in other words, merely groundwork for his glorious ascent to power?

Also what happens when everyone else works out that, as the Three-Eyed Raven is essentially immortal, he’s going to be in the job a long, long time? Perhaps the lords of the Seven Kingdoms should have spent longer than five minutes deliberating who would rule them for the foreseeable future.

Good netiquette to provide a link to the original article btw.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2019/05/ ... ng-season/

Broadly in agreement with all of it. His comment about the two writers not taking help is an interesting one.

Agree. Especially the shiw becoming blockbuster rather than story/dialogue driven.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:56 am 
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Another blog entry from GRRM, is TWoW really coming in the next year? He's got form for disappointing but...

Quote:
As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much. Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce. But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.


Next New Zealand Worldcon is Wednesday, 29 July 2020


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:59 am 
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I wonder will the disappointment by the internet masses spur him on to finish the books and "fix" the ending.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:11 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
I wonder will the disappointment by the internet masses spur him on to finish the books and "fix" the ending.


The only bit of the ending that didn't think worked was the Bran is King. It makes no sense that Lord Bloodraven who spent his career and reputation protecting the true Targaryan kings would then manipulate events to basically make Bran king of Westeros for a single generation. That includes having events that kill and banish the last 2 Targ heirs. It would maybe make sense if say Bran said we'll re-share the lands with the children of the forest again or something. But nothing except.

On the other hand Jon's ending was ideal. It makes even more sense in the books if he gets with Val, the wildling he fancies. Arya's makes more sense from the books, but the TV show it was a literal out of nowhere idea she sails west. Sansa queen of the north makes sense. So there is some aspect of the ending worthwhile, but it needs to be earn't by the journey there.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
= Arya's makes more sense from the books, but the TV show it was a literal out of nowhere idea she sails west.


Didn't she mention she wanted to do this in one of the earlier seasons?


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:27 am 
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I thought the way that most of the threads finished was reasonably fitting, I meant that GRRM might "fix" the journey in how they got to that point. With the time afforded in a novel he can be a bit more deft in getting all the characters to the right places and make the passing of time more obvious.

I thought Arya's ending was pretty good. The sailing West was a bit WTF, but it was right that she fucks off from being involved in the fate of Westeros. The turmoil is mainly over, so her ninja skillz aren't much use, and she has no interest in the normal politics; "That's not for me".

The only really jarring thing from the finale for me was the choice of Bran as king. Raises questions about the role of the 3ER, but then, who else would be king that doesn't cause trouble. He doesn't really give a shit about personal gain and the Small Council will fight amongst themselves, but ultimately get shit done.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:28 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
I thought the way that most of the threads finished was reasonably fitting, I meant that GRRM might "fix" the journey in how they got to that point. With the time afforded in a novel he can be a bit more deft in getting all the characters to the right places and make the passing of time more obvious.

I thought Arya's ending was pretty good. The sailing West was a bit WTF, but it was right that she fucks off from being involved in the fate of Westeros. The turmoil is mainly over, so her ninja skillz aren't much use, and she has no interest in the normal politics; "That's not for me".

The only really jarring thing from the finale for me was the choice of Bran as king. Raises questions about the role of the 3ER, but then, who else would be king that doesn't cause trouble. He doesn't really give a shit about personal gain and the Small Council will fight amongst themselves, but ultimately get shit done.


The last two books would suggest otherwise...


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:30 am 
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I was being charitable in thinking that his ego might make him knuckle down seeing so much online gnashing of teeth. The fat shit will kick it before tWoW is done.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:49 am 
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BokJock wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
= Arya's makes more sense from the books, but the TV show it was a literal out of nowhere idea she sails west.


Didn't she mention she wanted to do this in one of the earlier seasons?

Season 6, she said it to Lady Crane. "What's west of Westeros?"

Quote:
“What’s west of Westeros?” Arya asks. “That’s where all the maps stop.” Lady Crane says it must be the edge of the world, to which Arya responds, “I’d like to see that.”


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:59 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
I thought the way that most of the threads finished was reasonably fitting, I meant that GRRM might "fix" the journey in how they got to that point. With the time afforded in a novel he can be a bit more deft in getting all the characters to the right places and make the passing of time more obvious.

I thought Arya's ending was pretty good. The sailing West was a bit WTF, but it was right that she fucks off from being involved in the fate of Westeros. The turmoil is mainly over, so her ninja skillz aren't much use, and she has no interest in the normal politics; "That's not for me".

The only really jarring thing from the finale for me was the choice of Bran as king. Raises questions about the role of the 3ER, but then, who else would be king that doesn't cause trouble. He doesn't really give a shit about personal gain and the Small Council will fight amongst themselves, but ultimately get shit done.

Sailing off to explore the West is a very Stark thing to do.

One of the previous Brandon Starks fúcked off with the majority of the Northern fleet to explore during the age of heroes and never returned.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:06 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
BokJock wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
= Arya's makes more sense from the books, but the TV show it was a literal out of nowhere idea she sails west.


Didn't she mention she wanted to do this in one of the earlier seasons?

Season 6, she said it to Lady Crane. "What's west of Westeros?"

Quote:
“What’s west of Westeros?” Arya asks. “That’s where all the maps stop.” Lady Crane says it must be the edge of the world, to which Arya responds, “I’d like to see that.”


1 line in 8 seasons doesn't a motivation make.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:09 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
BokJock wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
= Arya's makes more sense from the books, but the TV show it was a literal out of nowhere idea she sails west.


Didn't she mention she wanted to do this in one of the earlier seasons?

Season 6, she said it to Lady Crane. "What's west of Westeros?"

Quote:
“What’s west of Westeros?” Arya asks. “That’s where all the maps stop.” Lady Crane says it must be the edge of the world, to which Arya responds, “I’d like to see that.”

:thumbup:
Don't remember that. Not as out of the blue as I'd thought.

Presumably she'll be allowed into Valinor as the one who killed the Night King.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:15 am 
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So much #nERDrAGE and neckbeardism about GOT.

its not like GRRM is tolstoy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:19 am 
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I stopped watching midway through the last season it turned so poo but I was sad to hear Cersei didn't win the Game of Thrones.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:43 am 
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Watched last night.



I feel betrayed. All the time I invested in the series and the two shitmeisters answer none of the questions except who 'wins' the game of thrones. Even that was answered through a 'several weeks later' scene.
The fuckers just want to cash in on their Disney money. If not that the final episode only served to create several spinoffs

1. Jon king of the real north
2. Arya of the Caribbean
3. (Tyrion) Lannister vs Stark WW 2
4. Black appeasement spin off series with no dicks


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:44 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
When I was 11 we had to write a story for English class. To cut a long story short the correct answer was WRITE THE END FIRST.



Everyone else is an idiot


They had the end first (in that GRRM gave it to them). If anything the problem with this series was writing backwards too much.


GRRM wrote 5 books that started to meander pointlessly all over the place before coming up with the end and then other people filled in the gap, that was the problem.

Another issue was GRRRRRRRRRRM threw a few clever curve balls early on and then seemed to become obsessed with bucking the trend to the point where it became his own personal cliche.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:44 am 
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:lol:

"Betrayed". It's a fucking TV show you absolute softcock.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:48 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
I thought the way that most of the threads finished was reasonably fitting, I meant that GRRM might "fix" the journey in how they got to that point. With the time afforded in a novel he can be a bit more deft in getting all the characters to the right places and make the passing of time more obvious.

I thought Arya's ending was pretty good. The sailing West was a bit WTF, but it was right that she fucks off from being involved in the fate of Westeros. The turmoil is mainly over, so her ninja skillz aren't much use, and she has no interest in the normal politics; "That's not for me".

The only really jarring thing from the finale for me was the choice of Bran as king. Raises questions about the role of the 3ER, but then, who else would be king that doesn't cause trouble. He doesn't really give a shit about personal gain and the Small Council will fight amongst themselves, but ultimately get shit done.



I can't wait for him to finish the books because since the chickens I have no idea what anybody ate


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:09 pm 
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