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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:48 pm 
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https://www.apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

If you want to read everything that went wrong. "Comedy of errors" is the title.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Flyin Ryan wrote:
https://www.apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

If you want to read everything that went wrong. "Comedy of errors" is the title.

That's an embarassing read. At least they are being open about it.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:12 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
That's got to be the GOAT podium :shock:

RIP Niki. Gentleman and legend.

Swap lauda for Schumacher


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:15 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
That's got to be the GOAT podium :shock:

RIP Niki. Gentleman and legend.

Swap lauda for Schumacher


Image


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:31 am 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
That's got to be the GOAT podium :shock:

RIP Niki. Gentleman and legend.

Swap lauda for Schumacher


Image

Pretty sure that's the only time they were on the podium together right?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:22 am 
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Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm 
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Saint wrote:
Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?



I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:01 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?



I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


There's a lot more to thus than high rake vs low rake - that's just the latest fad to try and explain things. I doubt we'll see a Merc 1-2 as Bottas has never made the podium here, and I have doubts over the long wheelbase issue being overcome by aero


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?



I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


There's a lot more to thus than high rake vs low rake - that's just the latest fad to try and explain things. I doubt we'll see a Merc 1-2 as Bottas has never made the podium here, and I have doubts over the long wheelbase issue being overcome by aero


Not sure it's a fad given its been a glaring difference for 5/6 years. Longer wheelbase means a bigger floor area as well.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:11 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?



I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


There's a lot more to thus than high rake vs low rake - that's just the latest fad to try and explain things. I doubt we'll see a Merc 1-2 as Bottas has never made the podium here, and I have doubts over the long wheelbase issue being overcome by aero


Not sure it's a fad given its been a glaring difference for 5/6 years. Longer wheelbase means a bigger floor area as well.



By fad I mean that;s what everyone is suddenly jumping on to try and explain the performance differential. I've seen more references to high-rake vs low-rake on this thread and elsewhere in the last 3 months than I have in the previous 6 years.

Longer wheelbase gives a bigger floor area, but also brings it's own channels in how to mange the air flow, so that's not a given to automatically be the correct option. The alternative view is that the Red Bull, with the highest rake in the field, was kept sorta kind competitive despite a drastically underpowered engine purely through it's aero design.

Ferrari arguably had the fastest car last season despite being closer to the Red Bull philosophy than the Mercedes - they were longer than previous years, but were still fairly short and high rake. And if there was a takeaway from the last 5 years or so, it was that low rake long wheelbase made the car slow at high downforce circuits - Mercedes have feared Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, and some of the other circuits for years. This year they appear to have figured that out, at least relative to the rest of the field (bear in mind that this is a major aero change this year, so it could just be they've managed to get closer to optimum faster than the others).

It's far too simplistic to pin car performance on one or two single design features - except for when someone comes up with something like the double diffuser, which was rare for an aero part in that you could apply it without giving too much thought to how it affected, and was affected by, the other aero parts on the car.

Edit - for reference, Alfa Romeo and Torro Rosso are only a few mm shorter than Mercedes; the Red Bull is shortest by 79 mm, and Ferrari are around halfway between the two


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 pm 
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Not fun anymore (like most of the F1 races ), last year at the Monaco GP only 6 overtakes occurred ( vs 48 at Paul Ricard )


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
Monaco this weekend then.

At this point, I think the only real question is if the Mercedes platform is genuinely going to keep ahead of the rest of the field when it comes to a tight, slow circuit. Everyone;s been struggling to match the Merc in the slow corners so far, but this will be the first time anyone's put the hard core wings on - will the Mercs generate even more downforce to keep them ahead, or will this help the others narrow the gap? Also, how will the long wheelbase Merc manage getting round much tighter corners than it's seen so far.

Other internest - will Monaco specialist Danny Ric manage to overcome the failings of the Renault? And will Max manage to apply any pressure at all to Mercedes? And finally, what new and exciting way will Ferrari find to screw up this weekend?



I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


There's a lot more to thus than high rake vs low rake - that's just the latest fad to try and explain things. I doubt we'll see a Merc 1-2 as Bottas has never made the podium here, and I have doubts over the long wheelbase issue being overcome by aero


Not sure it's a fad given its been a glaring difference for 5/6 years. Longer wheelbase means a bigger floor area as well.



By fad I mean that;s what everyone is suddenly jumping on to try and explain the performance differential. I've seen more references to high-rake vs low-rake on this thread and elsewhere in the last 3 months than I have in the previous 6 years.

Longer wheelbase gives a bigger floor area, but also brings it's own channels in how to mange the air flow, so that's not a given to automatically be the correct option. The alternative view is that the Red Bull, with the highest rake in the field, was kept sorta kind competitive despite a drastically underpowered engine purely through it's aero design.

Ferrari arguably had the fastest car last season despite being closer to the Red Bull philosophy than the Mercedes - they were longer than previous years, but were still fairly short and high rake. And if there was a takeaway from the last 5 years or so, it was that low rake long wheelbase made the car slow at high downforce circuits - Mercedes have feared Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, and some of the other circuits for years. This year they appear to have figured that out, at least relative to the rest of the field (bear in mind that this is a major aero change this year, so it could just be they've managed to get closer to optimum faster than the others).

It's far too simplistic to pin car performance on one or two single design features - except for when someone comes up with something like the double diffuser, which was rare for an aero part in that you could apply it without giving too much thought to how it affected, and was affected by, the other aero parts on the car.

Edit - for reference, Alfa Romeo and Torro Rosso are only a few mm shorter than Mercedes; the Red Bull is shortest by 79 mm, and Ferrari are around halfway between the two




I appreciate the are lots of inter-connected parts and flows that affect downforce, it's just that the floor produces about a half of the total and with the lowest drag penalty so teams will always try to get the floor working before other areas as it offers the highest gains. I think the Mercedes is actually one of the slower cars on the grid through the speed traps on the straights but it's so much quicker through the turns. Looks like a handful to drive as well which is counter-intuitive.

Whatever they're doing it's way too good for the other teams though clearly.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:29 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:


I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package. I think the high-rake philosophy has had its day - this is 5 straight years that Mercedes have gone the other way. When will the others catch on?


There's a lot more to thus than high rake vs low rake - that's just the latest fad to try and explain things. I doubt we'll see a Merc 1-2 as Bottas has never made the podium here, and I have doubts over the long wheelbase issue being overcome by aero


Not sure it's a fad given its been a glaring difference for 5/6 years. Longer wheelbase means a bigger floor area as well.



By fad I mean that;s what everyone is suddenly jumping on to try and explain the performance differential. I've seen more references to high-rake vs low-rake on this thread and elsewhere in the last 3 months than I have in the previous 6 years.

Longer wheelbase gives a bigger floor area, but also brings it's own channels in how to mange the air flow, so that's not a given to automatically be the correct option. The alternative view is that the Red Bull, with the highest rake in the field, was kept sorta kind competitive despite a drastically underpowered engine purely through it's aero design.

Ferrari arguably had the fastest car last season despite being closer to the Red Bull philosophy than the Mercedes - they were longer than previous years, but were still fairly short and high rake. And if there was a takeaway from the last 5 years or so, it was that low rake long wheelbase made the car slow at high downforce circuits - Mercedes have feared Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, and some of the other circuits for years. This year they appear to have figured that out, at least relative to the rest of the field (bear in mind that this is a major aero change this year, so it could just be they've managed to get closer to optimum faster than the others).

It's far too simplistic to pin car performance on one or two single design features - except for when someone comes up with something like the double diffuser, which was rare for an aero part in that you could apply it without giving too much thought to how it affected, and was affected by, the other aero parts on the car.

Edit - for reference, Alfa Romeo and Torro Rosso are only a few mm shorter than Mercedes; the Red Bull is shortest by 79 mm, and Ferrari are around halfway between the two




I appreciate the are lots of inter-connected parts and flows that affect downforce, it's just that the floor produces about a half of the total and with the lowest drag penalty so teams will always try to get the floor working before other areas as it offers the highest gains. I think the Mercedes is actually one of the slower cars on the grid through the speed traps on the straights but it's so much quicker through the turns. Looks like a handful to drive as well which is counter-intuitive.

Whatever they're doing it's way too good for the other teams though clearly.


There's different ways for the floor to produce down force- and a larger floor does not necessarily = more down force. Part of the thing with rake is that it's a very different set of principles at work for high rake vs low rake


As for being a handful - sometimes that's a benefit. It makes it easier to turn, as sometimes the really solid cars can be difficult to turn off straight line, and become inefficient round the bendy stuff.

It's worth noting that the one area where Mercedes really is different from the rest of the field is inwash vs outwash. The new regs were supposed to encourage teams to design cars favouring inwash - funneling the airflow inside the wheels. Every team bar Mercedes went down this route, but Merc rigidly stuck with an outwash approach. It's noticeable that the dev parts coming out from other teams are favouring outwash. The trouble is that it's hard to switch philosophy mid season


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Saint wrote:
As for being a handful - sometimes that's a benefit. It makes it easier to turn, as sometimes the really solid cars can be difficult to turn off straight line, and become inefficient round the bendy stuff.




Not good for the tyres though!


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:51 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
As for being a handful - sometimes that's a benefit. It makes it easier to turn, as sometimes the really solid cars can be difficult to turn off straight line, and become inefficient round the bendy stuff.




Not good for the tyres though!


Even that depends - sometimes you need a little lateral movement to help get them into the right temp zone.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:49 am 
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Monaco should not be called a race. Its a procession. After qualifying, the only reason to watch would be to see any crashes.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:51 am 
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obelixtim wrote:
Monaco should not be called a race. Its a procession. After qualifying, the only reason to watch would be to see any crashes.


In general I agree, but unfortunately the winner still walks off with 25 points


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:06 am 
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Saint wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Monaco should not be called a race. Its a procession. After qualifying, the only reason to watch would be to see any crashes.


In general I agree, but unfortunately Hamilton still walks off with 25 points

Fixed :blush:


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:27 am 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Saint wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Monaco should not be called a race. Its a procession. After qualifying, the only reason to watch would be to see any crashes.


In general I agree, but unfortunately Hamilton still walks off with 25 points

Fixed :blush:


He has only won it twice :?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:55 pm 
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In Q2. Single lap, the Mercedes are around 0.6s faster. More worryingly for the field, at race pace the Mercs look like on the Mediums they may be as fast as everyone else on the softs


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Saint wrote:
In Q2. Single lap, the Mercedes are around 0.6s faster. More worryingly for the field, at race pace the Mercs look like on the Mediums they may be as fast as everyone else on the softs



No surprise here.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:30 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
In Q2. Single lap, the Mercedes are around 0.6s faster. More worryingly for the field, at race pace the Mercs look like on the Mediums they may be as fast as everyone else on the softs



No surprise here.


Given the margin between the mediums and softs, that ought to be a shock for everyone. Depending on how you read it, that would potentially make the Merc around 1 second a lap faster than the next best car. That's enormous, and more reminiscent of Mansell in a Williams Renault back in the 80s


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:51 pm 
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Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
In Q2. Single lap, the Mercedes are around 0.6s faster. More worryingly for the field, at race pace the Mercs look like on the Mediums they may be as fast as everyone else on the softs



No surprise here.


Given the margin between the mediums and softs, that ought to be a shock for everyone. Depending on how you read it, that would potentially make the Merc around 1 second a lap faster than the next best car. That's enormous, and more reminiscent of Mansell in a Williams Renault back in the 80s




ForzaIt wrote:
I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:58 pm 
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ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
ForzaIt wrote:
Saint wrote:
In Q2. Single lap, the Mercedes are around 0.6s faster. More worryingly for the field, at race pace the Mercs look like on the Mediums they may be as fast as everyone else on the softs



No surprise here.


Given the margin between the mediums and softs, that ought to be a shock for everyone. Depending on how you read it, that would potentially make the Merc around 1 second a lap faster than the next best car. That's enormous, and more reminiscent of Mansell in a Williams Renault back in the 80s




ForzaIt wrote:
I can't see anything other than more Mercedes dominance. Barcelona aero is close to Monaco and sector 2 at Baku is very similar where the Mercedes was still quickest with a low downforce aero package.


I'm talking about the margin. There's dominant, there's excessive, and then there's this. If this continues through to race day then the Nercs could finish a minute clear


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Albons P2 lap was absolutely stellar!

0.3 secs off Vettel!


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:53 am 
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Mercedes is the only team able to use tyres the proper way - all other teams are struggling; that’s the issue.
And, as confirmed yesterday by Mario Isola during an interview - he said that with the new tyres spec this year the margin they have (in the use of tyres) is even bigger


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:19 am 
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Vettel walls it into T1 20 mins into FP3.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 am 
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Can't help but be impressed by Merc dominance.

Horrible for the game that is F1


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Check out sky’s paddock walk, Nat is looking splendid.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:20 pm 
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This Ferrari team are a complete joke. They break their necks to get Vettel out for a final lap and leave Leclerc twiddling his thumbs and he gets knocked out in Q1


Last edited by Anonymous. on Sat May 25, 2019 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:21 pm 
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Why do Ferrari hate Le Clerc so much?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:22 pm 
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de_Selby wrote:
Why do Ferrari hate Le Clerc so much?

It's weird


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
de_Selby wrote:
Why do Ferrari hate Le Clerc so much?

It's weird

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence etc.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:25 pm 
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His lifelong dream was the drive for Ferrari wasn't it? I imagine he's re-evaluated that one over the past few months


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:46 pm 
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de_Selby wrote:
His lifelong dream was the drive for Ferrari wasn't it? I imagine he's re-evaluated that one over the past few months

It's a bad start but things will get better.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:48 pm 
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dinsdale wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
de_Selby wrote:
Why do Ferrari hate Le Clerc so much?

It's weird

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence etc.

If mistakes are genuine and many they wont always favour one side of the garage. So he has to hope it turns around.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:04 pm 
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You can set your watch on Ferrari messing up. Their consistency is stunning


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:08 pm 
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I really want to see Max in a championship car.

Simply the best


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:09 pm 
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So that's the answer to this week's new and inventive screwup


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
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Anonymous. wrote:
I really want to see Max in a championship car.

Simply the best



He will win his first championship at Ferrari when he goes there.


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