Chat Forum
It is currently Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:01 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2592 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 65  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
Quote:
The gloves are off in the immunisation debate. Prime Minister Tony Abbott has announced that parents who are "conscientious objectors" to childhood vaccination will lose their childcare and family tax payments, worth up to $15,000 per child. That's a big price to pay for the families of the 39,000 unvaccinated children registered by their objecting parents.

But this announcement is about more than putting conditions on government benefits – it reframes the fight for immunisation. In easy-going Australia, vaccination has long been an "individual choice", where apparently informed parents could politely decline the jabs for their precious progeny. Individual choice works for haircuts and handbags, but not for preventing infectious diseases that kill kids.

This is not an "individual choice" but is what economists call a free-rider problem, where the hippy children who benefit from herd immunity don't run the very small risk of receiving the needles.

Herd immunity requires a large proportion of the population to be immunised to protect the children who can't be immunised – the newborns, the kids on chemo, and the truly allergic. In northern NSW, where I work as an emergency doctor, high rates of conscientious objection mean herd immunity is dropping. These typically affluent and educated parents weigh the risks and benefits of vaccinating their little darlings, and in a community with high-quality medical care and low rates of infectious diseases, the objecting parents rationally conclude that not vaccinating is the better option.

The decision-making becomes clear when self-described "alternative" and "hippy" parents request vaccination against tetanus but not the other diseases. Why the difference? It's not because the hippy kids run around barefoot. Acceptance of the science of immunisation doesn't depend on the contents of the needle. The difference is that the tetanus-causing bacteria live in the soil and are not transmitted between children, whereas the other vaccine-preventable diseases live in people and are transmitted between children. This means that there is no herd immunity for tetanus, but there is herd immunity for every other vaccine-preventable disease. Many objecting parents know this, and ask for tetanus vaccination alone. They're basking in the benefits of an immunised community.


This is not an "individual choice" but is what economists call a free-rider problem, where the hippy children who benefit from herd immunity don't run the very small risk of receiving the needles. The traditional "informed choice" debate overlooks the free-rider problem, and assumes that objecting parents are somehow not weighing the risks for their children. Of course parents want to do the best for their children, as do conscientious objectors. But parents who vaccinate their kids are also protecting other parents' vulnerable children, shouldering some of the shared burden that helps make us a community.

Easy-going Australia accepts compulsion, such as taxation and third-party insurance, to solve other free-rider problems. Protecting our children should be no different. The conscientious objectors can view the $15,000 being removed from their pockets as a token of the disapproval of the community, supported by both sides of politics.

Childhood vaccination has never been about one child and one needle, about a parent's right to decide in isolation. It is a community responsibility, a responsibility that objecting parents shirk. Vaccination is about keeping all our children safe.

Dr Dean Robertson is an emergency doctor in northern NSW.



Scum bags.

Kudos for the Federal Govt taking away benefits from anti-vaxer parasites; however they need to do more imo. Ban un-vaccinated children from all public schools and withdraw Govt funding to private schools who allow un-vaccinated children.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 2795
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 50002
And here we go again!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 11479
Location: STRAYA CUNT
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.

Yeah.

The leaders of the anti-vax movement are scum who the world would be better off without. The sheep who follow them are welcome to fudge off to the desert and live in communes if they want to do it their way. Excellent step by the government. Hopefully they keep pushing forward and remove the religious exemption, and ban the non-vaccinated children from kindergartens, public schools, and similar until the parents decide to behave.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 18082
CM11 wrote:
And here we go again!


Woo hoo!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Parent intuition? What about sexual offenders whom find their own children sexually attractive and take action on it. That cool too? After all, who should the parent listen to, the Govt law of their own intuition?

Parents don't have to take the dictates from a Govt about anything. They are free to do what they want. If the parent wants, they can murder their child and eat them. They can refuse to give them food and can keep them in a hole in the ground. However, there are consequences.

If you allow your child to get and spread preventable diseases, the Govt will punish you. Like child molestation and infanticide is condemned, risking your child's health and the health of others is wrong and the Govt will take action. These are the rules of our society. If you don't like it, f*ck off to another country and suck my dick at the airport you f*ckhead, dangerous plums.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 16852
Isn't Couch just doing (what I thought) a fairly obvious troll?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
Raggs wrote:
Isn't Couch just doing (what I thought) a fairly obvious troll?



Probably.

if he is, it's just going to rain more spiteful shit on the real anti-vaxers. As long as some ignorant wanker gets his sensibilities ruffled, I'm cool with it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 3110
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 16852
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


Why? They opt out of society, society opts out of them. Seems fair.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 16852
towny wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


That I would like to see in terms of protecting the other children, but it also punishes the childs future for a decision they didn't make.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 2795
At the end of the day, Ebola will get the pro vaccers anyway.

But hey at least they'll be able to scan your John doe body through that microchip you received at the tender age of four


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
Raggs wrote:
towny wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


That I would like to see in terms of protecting the other children, but it also punishes the childs future for a decision they didn't make.



1. The parents have the choice to enter their child in school or home school them. It's the parent's responsibility and so the kid should know who to blame
2. I couldn't give a shit.

Last week a baby boy died in my city due to a preventable disease which is making a come-back due to anti-vaxers. If it was my kid, I'd now own a gun and anti-vaxers would be finding life very dangerous.

fudge them all! Their kids can f*cking rot.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 18082
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though

Nah, it's only money.

TBH, it probably won't have that much of a coercing effect.

The antivaxers are predominantly in the high socio-economic brackets. They don't need the cash.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 am
Posts: 40613
Location: Joint No. 3 to Cyprus
Christ towny, way to outdickhead the dickheads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 4445
Location: Straya c**ts.
Raggs wrote:
towny wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


That I would like to see in terms of protecting the other children, but it also punishes the childs future for a decision they didn't make.

What about the future of the genuinely allergic child who dies because herd immunity has fallen? He or she is also punished for a decision they didn't make.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
kiap wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though

Nah, it's only money.

TBH, it probably won't have that much of a coercing effect.

The antivaxers are predominantly in the high socio-economic brackets. They don't need the cash.


Yeah. Ban their kids from school and they'll come around though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 11479
Location: STRAYA CUNT
towny wrote:
kiap wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though

Nah, it's only money.

TBH, it probably won't have that much of a coercing effect.

The antivaxers are predominantly in the high socio-economic brackets. They don't need the cash.


Yeah. Ban their kids from school and they'll come around though.

Probably can't ban their kids from private schools can you? Unless you take government funding away from the school unless they only allow fully vaccinated children to enrol. Could put the money saved into medical research :thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 4445
Location: Straya c**ts.
kiap wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though

Nah, it's only money.

TBH, it probably won't have that much of a coercing effect.

The antivaxers are predominantly in the high socio-economic brackets. They don't need the cash.

Most of the hippies and alternate lifestyles are not in those high brackets. Plus it saves money. 39,000 unvaccinated kids x $15K is over half a billion better spent on research or simply those who deserve it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 3600
Location: STRAYA CUNT!!!
Couch wrote:
At the end of the day, Ebola will get the pro vaccers anyway.

But hey at least they'll be able to scan your John doe body through that microchip you received at the tender age of four


Nah, they're working on a vaccine for that. Not too far off evidently.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
A politician controlled by a big company.

Even in Australia., The world is coming to an end.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 37994
All children deserve vaccination


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 16852
Waratah wrote:
Raggs wrote:
towny wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


That I would like to see in terms of protecting the other children, but it also punishes the childs future for a decision they didn't make.

What about the future of the genuinely allergic child who dies because herd immunity has fallen? He or she is also punished for a decision they didn't make.


Which is why I'd make vaccinations mandatory, except for those with genuine medical concerns. However, if you're going to coerce parents into doing it through other means, denying schooling to the child is not the way forward.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 2795
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Couch wrote:
At the end of the day, Ebola will get the pro vaccers anyway.

But hey at least they'll be able to scan your John doe body through that microchip you received at the tender age of four


Nah, they're working on a vaccine for that. Not too far off evidently.

You do realise vaccinations aren't a cure right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
towny wrote:
Raggs wrote:
towny wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though


agree.

Ban the kids from schools, child care centres and kick them off medicare.


That I would like to see in terms of protecting the other children, but it also punishes the childs future for a decision they didn't make.



1. The parents have the choice to enter their child in school or home school them. It's the parent's responsibility and so the kid should know who to blame
2. I couldn't give a shit.

Last week a baby boy died in my city due to a preventable disease which is making a come-back due to anti-vaxers. If it was my kid, I'd now own a gun and anti-vaxers would be finding life very dangerous.

f**k them all! Their kids can f*cking rot.


Are people really this brainwashed and this stupid. Hopefully only in Australia

edit and hopefully a company not motivated just by money will develop a vaccine for it


Last edited by Silver on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 3110
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 18082
Waratah wrote:
kiap wrote:
colonel wrote:
Anti vaccine bods are either morons or arseholes. Conditions for receiving child benefit is a bit thin end of the wedgey though

Nah, it's only money.

TBH, it probably won't have that much of a coercing effect.

The antivaxers are predominantly in the high socio-economic brackets. They don't need the cash.

Most of the hippies and alternate lifestyles are not in those high brackets. Plus it saves money. 37,000 unvaccinated kids x $15K is about half a billion better spent on research or simply those who deserve it.

I agree with the policy.

It will pressure the hippies.

But on its own it won't do much in the high-income suburbs where antivax growth is.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 2795
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.

Do you trust a mega Corp drug maker over common sense?

The money is not in the cure but in the vaccination, I bet you trust that NASA landed on the moon too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 14814
Location: STRAYA!
I agree with this but, unfortunately, it will only weed out the poorer morons who rely on family benefits. There are plenty of people who are antivaxx who earn too much and aren't eligible for family benefits.

Funnily enough, it's these middle to upper class loons who are becoming increasingly anti-vaxx.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.


Not science. You trust corporations motivated by nothing but profit.

The problem now is too many people have forgotten how to think for themselves.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 1344
Location: Bondi Centrelink
Thomas wrote:
I agree with this but, unfortunately, it will only weed out the poorer morons who rely on family benefits. There are plenty of people who are antivaxx who earn too much and aren't eligible for family benefits.

Funnily enough, it's these middle to upper class loons who are becoming increasingly anti-vaxx.


Childcare payments aren't means tested.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
Thomas wrote:
I agree with this but, unfortunately, it will only weed out the poorer morons who rely on family benefits. There are plenty of people who are antivaxx who earn too much and aren't eligible for family benefits.

Funnily enough, it's these middle to upper class loons who are becoming increasingly anti-vaxx.


Not loons. People who can still think for themselves. Who the brainwashed mob hate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 6862
Location: Sinkers
Couch wrote:
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.

Do you trust a mega Corp drug maker over common sense?

The money is not in the cure but in the vaccination, I bet you trust that NASA landed on the moon too.





We're through the looking glass here people.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:53 pm
Posts: 16137
Location: Perth
Silver wrote:
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.


Not science. You trust corporations motivated by nothing but profit.

The problem now is too many people have forgotten how to think for themselves.


Australia has the PBS. Do you know what this is? It's the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme: A Govt run initiative which tells pharmaceutical companies how much Australians will pay for drugs. Companies which wish to sell important drugs in Australia, get told what the price will be.

You think Australian politicians are controlled by 'big pharma' when the PBS is their nightmare?


Now, quickly go google 'pbs' and work out what it is and come back to me. There's a good boy. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 5762
Location: Straya cunt
Couch wrote:
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.

Do you trust a mega Corp drug maker over common sense?

The money is not in the cure but in the vaccination, I bet you trust that NASA landed on the moon too.



I fucking love this guy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
fraz wrote:
Couch wrote:
colonel wrote:
Couch wrote:
Yet nobody can prove what's really inside the vaccination they are proposing to give to our children.

The main issues here is who do you trust. A parents intuition or the dictatorship government making people sick for profit.


Nobody can prove what's in a vaccine? Nobody?

I trust proven science over the intuition of people who's intuition lead them to be wrong.

Do you trust a mega Corp drug maker over common sense?

The money is not in the cure but in the vaccination, I bet you trust that NASA landed on the moon too.



I fucking love this guy.


Controlled opposition maybe?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9983
towny wrote:

You think Australian politicians are controlled by 'big pharma' when the PBS is their nightmare?
)


Abbott clearly is


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 14003
Wow, who is this Couch, he's managing to out moron Silver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 6682
Is toughening up on vaccination laws on any party manifestos at the moment? That will the test of general popularity, and a test of resolve of their proponents.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2592 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 65  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: assfly, backrow, Backwoodsman1, Ballyrandle, BillW, Bing [Bot], Boomslang, CarrotGawks, CrazyIslander, danny_fitz, Ewinkum, fatcat, Fiorsceil, FravBront, Ghost-Of-Nepia, Google Adsense [Bot], Gospel, happyhooker, irishrugbyua, Joost, Leffe, malky, Mog The Almighty, Monk Zombie, mr bungle, PornDog, prop-a-ganda, rabble, Saint, sewa, Taranaki Snapper, Wilderbeast, Yer Man, Zakar and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group