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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Didn't see a thread on this, pretty crazy stuff. So they're already rich and they use that wealth to scam the system even further. What a load of shit.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/w ... index.html
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(CNN)The biggest college admissions scam ever prosecuted in the US is a harsh reminder that wealthy families can cheat their way to even greater privilege. And some say this scandal is just the tip of the iceberg.

Here's what we know so far in this developing case:
Who's involved?
Federal prosecutors say 50 people took part in a scheme that involved either cheating on standardized tests or bribing college coaches and school officials to accept students as college athletes -- even if the student had never played that sport.
Actresses Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman are among the dozens of parents facing federal charges. Others charged include nine coaches at elite schools; two SAT/ACT administrators; an exam proctor; a college administrator; and a CEO who admitted he wanted to help the wealthiest families get their kids into elite colleges.
How did this scheme work?
How the wealthy and powerful allegedly gamed the system
How the wealthy and powerful allegedly gamed the system
It was all orchestrated by William Rick Singer, CEO of a college admissions prep company called The Key. Singer pleaded guilty to four charges Tuesday and admitted that everything a prosecutor accused him of "is true."
"There were essentially two kinds of fraud that Singer was selling," US Attorney Andrew Lelling said.
"One was to cheat on the SAT or ACT, and the other was to use his connections with Division I coaches and use bribes to get these parents' kids into school with fake athletic credentials."
Here's how the standardized test cheating worked:
Some parents paid between $15,000 and $75,000 per test to help their children get a better score, prosecutors said.
Singer arranged for a third-party -- usually Mark Riddell -- to take the test secretly in the students' place or replace their responses with his own.
Prosecutors explain how big the scam was

Prosecutors explain how big the scam was 02:46
How did Riddell allegedly take the tests without being noticed by the test administrators? Singer bribed those test administrators, prosecutors said.
Igor Dvorskiy, who administered SAT and ACT tests in Los Angeles, and Lisa "Niki" Williams, who administered the tests at a public high school in Houston, are both accused of accepting bribes to allow Riddell to take the tests. Both are charged with conspiracy to commit racketeering.
Here's how the fake athletic credentials worked:
In some cases, parents allegedly took part in Singer's scheme to bribe college coaches and athletic officials.
Who's the CEO and company behind the admissions scam?
Who's the CEO and company behind the admissions scam?
While college coaches don't explicitly decide who gets accepted into their universities, they do make recommendations on which recruited athletes should be accepted.
Loughlin, who played Aunt Becky on "Full House," and her fashion designer husband, Mossimo Giannulli, allegedly agreed to pay bribes totaling $500,000 to have their two daughters designated as recruits to the University of Southern California crew team.
But neither of Loughlin's daughters ever competed in crew, a complaint states. Instead, the parents sent photos of each of their daughters on a rowing machine.
How did Singer conceal these massive payments?
Singer disguised bribe payments as charitable contributions to the Key Worldwide Foundation -- a purported nonprofit that was actually "a front Singer used to launder the money that parents paid him," Lelling said.
How the cheating scandal highlights big inequality
How the cheating scandal highlights big inequality
Ironically, Singer -- who allegedly said his goal was to "help the wealthiest families in the US get their kids into school" -- claimed the KWF nonprofit was aimed at helping poorer students.
In a 2018, Singer called Loughlin's husband, Giannulli, to clarify the cover story on the family's massive payment.
"So I just want to make sure our stories are the same ... and that your $400K was paid to our foundation to help underserved kids," Singer said.
"Uh, perfect," Giannulli allegedly responded.
What's the reaction been?
Across the country, parents are outraged that wealthy families cheated their way to elite universities -- thereby denying spots for less privileged, harder working kids.
What the college cheating scandal says about us
What the college cheating scandal says about us
"For every student admitted through fraud, an honest, genuinely talented student was rejected," Lelling said.
The University of Southern California said it has fired senior athletic director Donna Heinel and water polo coach Jovan Vavic, who are both charged in the scheme.
While the university is not directly accused of wrongdoing, "USC is in the process of identifying any funds received by the university in connection with this alleged scheme," it said in a statement. "Additionally, the university is reviewing its admissions processes broadly to ensure that such actions do not occur going forward."
Stanford University has fired head sailing coach John Vandemoer, who pleaded guilty Tuesday to racketeering conspiracy.
Wake Forest University said it's put head volleyball coach Bill Ferguson on leave. Ferguson faces a charge of conspiracy to commit racketeering.
Does it matter which college you go to?

Does it matter which college you go to? 01:56
The University of Texas at Austin said men's tennis coach Michael Center was placed on leave "as soon as we learned of the charges against him, which are being fully investigated."
Georgetown University said it was "deeply disappointed" to learn former tennis coach Gordon Ernst is charged in the scheme but said Ernst "has not coached our tennis team since Dec. 2017, following an internal investigation that found he had violated University rules concerning admissions."
Yale University said it will continue cooperating with investigators after former women's soccer coach Rudolph "Rudy" Meredith was charged.
UCLA has put men's soccer head coach Jorge Salcedo on leave as he faces a charge of conspiracy to commit racketeering.
"UCLA is not aware of any current student-athletes who are under suspicion," the university said in a statement.
What don't we know?
We don't know if more people are involved in this scandal, or whether more charges will be filed.
What Lori Loughlin's daughter said about going to USC

What Lori Loughlin's daughter said about going to USC 01:17
"I will say that the investigation remains active," prosecutor Lelling said. "These are not the only parents involved. We suspect these probably aren't the only coaches involved, and so we will be moving ahead to look for additional targets."
It's also not clear whether any of the students in this scandal will face charges.
"We're still considering that," Lelland said. "The parents, the other defendants, are clearly the prime movers of this fraud. It remains to be seen whether we charge any of the students."
Another big unknown: how many other similar cheating schemes might be out there.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:10 pm 
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I personally know Rick Singer. He went to the same gym I did back home (my mom saw him there two weeks ago) and he briefly advised me on college at one point. :shock:

But here's the thing for those unfamiliar with the US education system. You can legally bribe your way into most schools with the right sized donation. Some of these people were paying millions of dollars. They could have donated that amount, probably had their name on some building or project and not ended up in jail. I guess they're as dumb as their kids.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:13 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
I personally know Rick Singer. He went to the same gym I did back home (my mom saw him there two weeks ago) and he briefly advised me on college at one point. :shock:

But here's the thing for those unfamiliar with the US education system. You can legally bribe your way into most schools with the right sized donation. Some of these people were paying millions of dollars. They could have donated that amount, probably had their name on some building or project and not ended up in jail. I guess they're as dumb as their kids.


What's he like? Is this a shock to you or was the guy dodgy?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:18 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:26 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
goeagles wrote:
I personally know Rick Singer. He went to the same gym I did back home (my mom saw him there two weeks ago) and he briefly advised me on college at one point. :shock:

But here's the thing for those unfamiliar with the US education system. You can legally bribe your way into most schools with the right sized donation. Some of these people were paying millions of dollars. They could have donated that amount, probably had their name on some building or project and not ended up in jail. I guess they're as dumb as their kids.


What's he like? Is this a shock to you or was the guy dodgy?


There was definitely something a bit shady about him. He was also a former high school basketball coach (fired for a "personnel matter") and a former college basketball coach (a profession which also inherently seems to attract shady characters). My mom had him push me to do my college essays and look at a couple colleges I hadn't previously considered, including Colorado where I ended up. He clearly didn't do shit for my essays, though, since the admissions adviser at Washington told me I was a lock to get in and then I got waitlisted. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:29 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.

That was a different case, but equally bogus.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Uthikoloshe wrote:
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Not sure how this makes any sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


I saw a stat that Harvard actually accepts more white people through the legacy admissions (given preference due to being related to a former alumni) than it does total POC. But guess which one of those things is routinely brought up when discussing people missing out to others being preferred?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


The real special route that screws people over is legacy status. This only happens at private schools, but basically you get a huge leg up in admissions if one of your parents went to that school. So obviously that screws over POC, but it also screws over pretty much anyone who isn't from an old money WASP family.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:35 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Not sure how this makes any sense?

He wrote tests for money.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:37 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


The real special route that screws people over is legacy status. This only happens at private schools, but basically you get a huge leg up in admissions if one of your parents went to that school. So obviously that screws over POC, but it also screws over pretty much anyone who isn't from an old money WASP family.


It probably screws Asian kids the most since they test the highest, many have immigrant parents, and they aren’t included under affirmative action.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:40 pm 
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I read some ones daughters got in on athletic ability. Imagine going down to test yourself on the rowing machine against people who are good at it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:41 pm 
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Seat racing for uni places? yikes


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
goeagles wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


The real special route that screws people over is legacy status. This only happens at private schools, but basically you get a huge leg up in admissions if one of your parents went to that school. So obviously that screws over POC, but it also screws over pretty much anyone who isn't from an old money WASP family.


It probably screws Asian kids the most since they test the highest, many have immigrant parents, and they aren’t included under affirmative action.


For sure. Luckily California, which has the largest Asian population in the country, has a great public tertiary education system. A lot of California state schools are either majority or plurality Asian. Having spent a lot of time on Cal's campus as a kid going to sporting events, it was really strange to come out to Colorado and see very few Asians on campus and in my classes.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:00 pm 
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George W Bush went to Yale. :((


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 pm 
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Isn't there a big problem with the way US colleges are now giving everyone really good grades compared to what they used to give despite students doing a lot less work too? Basically that a lot of it is just a scam now


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:26 pm 
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DragonKhan wrote:
Isn't there a big problem with the way US colleges are now giving everyone really good grades compared to what they used to give despite students doing a lot less work too? Basically that a lot of it is just a scam now


I think this happens mostly at private schools. Stanford is notorious for it, but it's nothing new. When I was in college (large public university) a decade ago, professors weren't allowed to do that and if too many people got high grades they were told they either needed to make the class harder or grade on a curve.

But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:37 pm 
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But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


:thumbup:

Agree with all of that. Also it means a lot of people end up starting families later than they would want to because they are focused on paying off debts.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 pm 
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POLITICS
Remember That Time When Jared Kushner’s Dad Donated $2.5M to Harvard and Then His Son Got Into Harvard?
Stephen A. Crockett Jr.

Turns out that wealthy people including actresses, actors and business folks have been involved in a scandal that includes all kinds of crazy allegations to get their children into prestigious institutions.

But it looks like the president’s son-in-law, holder of Ivanka’s hand and a security clearance he didn’t earn, was ahead of the curve. Author Daniel Golden put Jared Kushner’s game on front street in his 2006 book, The Price of Admission, where he questioned how Kushner, a mediocre student at best, was accepted to one of America’s most prestigious institutions: Harvard.

“My book exposed a grubby secret of American higher education: that the rich buy their underachieving children’s way into elite universities with massive, tax-deductible donations,” Golden wrote for the Guardian in 2016.

“It reported that New Jersey real estate developer Charles Kushner had pledged $2.5 million to Harvard University not long before his son Jared was admitted to the prestigious Ivy League school, which at the time accepted about one of every nine applicants. (Nowadays, it only takes one out of 20).”

A former official at the Frisch School in Paramus, N.J., where Kushner attended, told Golden that there was no way that Kushner was going to Harvard on merits alone.

“His GPA [grade point average] did not warrant it, his SAT scores did not warrant it. We thought, for sure, there was no way this was going to happen. Then, lo and behold, Jared was accepted. It was a little bit disappointing because there were at the time other kids we thought should really get in on the merits, and they did not.’’

Golden wasn’t even digging up info on Kushner back in 2006 when his book was published. He was actually looking for a connection between Harvard donors and their children’s admission into the school.

From the Guardian:

My Kushner discoveries were an offshoot of my research for a chapter on Harvard donors. Somebody had slipped me a document I had long coveted: the membership list of Harvard’s Committee on University Resources. The university wooed more than 400 of its biggest givers and most promising prospects by putting them on this committee and inviting them to campus periodically to be wined, dined and subjected to lectures by eminent professors.

My idea was to figure out how many children of these corporate titans, oil barons, money managers, lawyers, high-tech consultants and old-money heirs had gone to Harvard. A disproportionate tally might suggest that the university eased its standards for the offspring of wealthy backers.

I began working through the list, poring over Who’s Who in America and Harvard class reunion reports for family information. Charles and Seryl Kushner were both on the committee. I had never heard of them, but their joint presence struck me as a sign that Harvard’s fundraising machine held the couple in especially fond regard.

The clips showed that Charles Kushner’s empire encompassed 25,000 New Jersey apartments, along with extensive office, industrial and retail space and undeveloped land. Unlike most of his fellow committee members, though, Kushner was not a Harvard man. He had graduated from New York University. This eliminated the sentimental tug of the alma mater as a reason for him to give to Harvard, leaving another likely explanation: his children.

Sure enough, his sons Jared and Joshua had both enrolled there.

Golden found that out of the list of 400 donors—excluding those who didn’t have children—half of the list had at least one child who attended the prestigious university. Golden notes that because Big Kushner had received jail time for tax violations, illegal campaign donations and retaliating against a witness in 2004, they weren’t eager to associate with him, but they didn’t have any problem taking his money which was paid in annual installments of $250,000.

So, yes, Jared Kushner is a product of wealthy parents funding his education and marrying up.

Basically, Jared Kushner is a thot.

https://www.theroot.com/remember-that-t ... 1833241931


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:08 pm 
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goeagles wrote:
DragonKhan wrote:
Isn't there a big problem with the way US colleges are now giving everyone really good grades compared to what they used to give despite students doing a lot less work too? Basically that a lot of it is just a scam now


I think this happens mostly at private schools. Stanford is notorious for it, but it's nothing new. When I was in college (large public university) a decade ago, professors weren't allowed to do that and if too many people got high grades they were told they either needed to make the class harder or grade on a curve.

But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


Pretty much. I was gonna say it’s interesting that the bored yanks agree on this one but then again I’m not sure there’s anyone who attended a university in this country that doesn’t have that view. My girlfriend is from the third world and even she scoffs at the standards of our university system.

I don’t know about you guys but I’d say the vast majority of the work I did in undergrad was essentially busywork. Exams coming? Just look at the powerpoints the night before and if you’re not an idiot an A ought to be heading your way. I graduated with a 3.7 and never did shit at home except for study for exams and write papers (which were also done half-assedly the night before due). I’m not saying this because I’m smart.

FWIW I went to a no name private school, Saint Louis University, so maybe this reinforces your point. It felt the same at Mizzou and its satellite UM-St Louis during my brief time there though.

Colorado is one of the better state schools though if I’m not mistaken.

Lastly I’ll just say this is why, like you, I’m totally against free four year college. If anything there should be vastly fewer people going to universities.

University education in this country is primarily a money making venture.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:24 pm 
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Is 'Operation Varsity Blues' of the below story the same as the OP's?


Former CFLer Sidoo charged in alleged U.S. college admissions scheme
By Rick Westhead

Rick Westhead
TSN Senior Correspondent
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Former Canadian Football League player David Sidoo, who in retirement has become a prominent Vancouver businessman and philanthropist, has been accused by the U.S. Justice Department of conspiring to cheat entrance exams to American colleges.
Sidoo, the president and CEO of Advantage Lithium, a Vancouver private investment banking firm, has been charged in a criminal investigation with nearly 50 other people, including coaches, a college administrator, and Hollywood actresses Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin. The investigation was known as ‘Operation Varsity Blues’ by U.S. Department of Justice officials.

Sidoo was charged on March 5, according to a copy of the indictment, filed in U.S. District Court in Massachusetts and unsealed on Tuesday.
The indictment says Sidoo has been charged with conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud in connection with U.S. college entrance exams purportedly taken by his two sons. The allegations against Sidoo have not been proven. He did not respond to a voice mail left at his office on Tuesday morning.
“David Sidoo has been repeatedly recognized for his philanthropic endeavours, which is the true testament to his character,” Sidoo’s lawyer, Richard A. Schonfeld, wrote in a statement to TSN. “The charge that has been lodged against David is an allegation that carries with it the presumption that he is innocent. We look forward to presenting our case in court, and ask that people don’t rush to judgment in the meantime.”
The indictment alleges that Sidoo, in the fall of 2011, agreed to pay someone $100,000 (U.S.) to fly from Tampa to Vancouver to secretly take a U.S. university entrance exam for his older son. The identity of the person who took the exam is redacted.
“In or about September 2011, Sidoo emailed [name redacted] copies of his older son’s driver’s license and student identification card for the purpose of creating a falsified identification card,” according to the indictment.
On or about Dec. 3, 2011, the person posed as Sidoo’s older son and took the U.S. SAT college entrance exam.
According to the indictment, the person was instructed, “not to obtain too high a score, because Sidoo’s older son had previously taken the exam himself and obtained a score of 1,460 out of a possible 2,400.”
The person earned a total score of 1,670.
On or about Jan. 24, 2012, Sidoo’s older son was accepted to Chapman University, a private university in California, the indictment says.
Months later, on June 9, 2012, an unidentified person flew from Tampa to Vancouver and “took the Canadian high school graduation exam” in Sidoo’s older son’s place, the indictment alleges.
In the fall of 2012, Sidoo allegedly agreed to pay $100,000 to have someone take the SAT entrance exam in place of his younger son.
After receiving the younger son’s identification papers, a person flew from Tampa to Los Angeles and took the SAT exam on Dec. 1 on his behalf at a high school in Orange County, Calif., the indictment alleges, earning a score of 2,280 out of a possible 2,400.
On Jan. 21, 2013, Sidoo allegedly emailed an unidentified person asking for instructions to send a wire transfer.
“On or about Jan. 23, 2013, Sidoo wired $100,000 to the account, as agreed, for having [name redacted] take the SAT for Sidoo’s younger son,” the indictment says.
That SAT score was used in 2013 and 2014 as part of Sidoo’s younger son’s applications to schools including Yale University, Georgetown University, and the University of California - Berkeley.
In March 2014, Sidoo’s younger son was accepted to the University of California - Berkeley and later enrolled at that school.
The indictment also alleges that on or about Oct. 25, 2018, an unidentified person called Sidoo from Boston.
“In that call, Sidoo noted that his older son was applying to business school, adding ‘I thought you were gonna call me and say I got a 2,100 on my GMAT’ – a reference to a standardized test that is widely used as part of the business school admissions process, which is scored on a scale of 200 to 800. [Name redacted] responded, ‘They don’t have a 2,100 for the GMAT. But I would do my best to get it for ya.’ Sidoo replied, ‘I know.’”
A defensive back at the University of British Columbia, Sidoo helped lead the Thunderbirds to an undefeated season and UBC’s first Vanier Cup national championship in 1982. He later played six seasons in the CFL with the Saskatchewan Roughriders and BC Lions before moving into the investment banking industry with Yorkton Securities.
In a February 2017 profile story in B.C. Business magazine, Sidoo was credited with helping to save the UBC football program, and helping to form the 13th Man Foundation, a group of UBC football alumni who helped to raise money for the school’s football program. The Sidoo Field at Thunderbird Stadium is named in his honour.
Kurt Heinrich, senior director of UBC’s media relations department, wrote in a statement that the school is aware of the allegations against Sidoo.
“It would be inappropriate for the university to comment any further as the case is before the courts,” Heinrich wrote. “The university will continue to monitor the situation.”
Sidoo was a 2016 recipient of the Order of British Columbia, the Province’s highest form of recognition. He has also been honoured by the Government of Canada with the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:31 pm 
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fonzeee wrote:
goeagles wrote:
DragonKhan wrote:
Isn't there a big problem with the way US colleges are now giving everyone really good grades compared to what they used to give despite students doing a lot less work too? Basically that a lot of it is just a scam now


I think this happens mostly at private schools. Stanford is notorious for it, but it's nothing new. When I was in college (large public university) a decade ago, professors weren't allowed to do that and if too many people got high grades they were told they either needed to make the class harder or grade on a curve.

But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


Pretty much. I was gonna say it’s interesting that the bored yanks agree on this one but then again I’m not sure there’s anyone who attended a university in this country that doesn’t have that view. My girlfriend is from the third world and even she scoffs at the standards of our university system.

I don’t know about you guys but I’d say the vast majority of the work I did in undergrad was essentially busywork. Exams coming? Just look at the powerpoints the night before and if you’re not an idiot an A ought to be heading your way. I graduated with a 3.7 and never did shit at home except for study for exams and write papers (which were also done half-assedly the night before due). I’m not saying this because I’m smart.

FWIW I went to a no name private school, Saint Louis University, so maybe this reinforces your point. It felt the same at Mizzou and its satellite UM-St Louis during my brief time there though.

Colorado is one of the better state schools though if I’m not mistaken.

Lastly I’ll just say this is why, like you, I’m totally against free four year college. If anything there should be vastly fewer people going to universities.


CU is a tier below the top ones like Cal and Michigan, IMO. CU also has a pretty wide open admissions policy, which also probably results in more kids dropping out, but the quality of education is decent, my thoughts on undergraduate education generally notwithstanding. They get such little funding from the state that they've considered going private, which also explains the fairly wide open admissions policy along with a high out of state population. Lots of entitled rich SoCal kids who ended up dropping out. Lots of hot girls from that population though, so not all bad. :lol:

Definitely agree about free 4 year education. Intro level classes at nearly any 4 year university are unlikely to be substantially better than at a JC. At a large state university, you're going to be sitting in a 500 person lecture hall, mostly being taught by a grad student or some research focused professor who thinks teaching the class is beneath him or her but has to do it anyway. No way that's going to be a better than a 30-40 person class at a JC with a professor who might be less accomplished but is actually interested in teaching the material and is much more available for discussion and questions. And that's just 2 year vs 4 year stuff, not even the other stuff we also likely agree on such as fewer people going to universities.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 pm 
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Don Trump Jr. mocks Hollywood cheating scam, invites renewed scrutiny of his own college admission
Donald Trump has a history of pledging millions to elite universities just as his children prepare for college

https://www.salon.com/2019/03/13/don-tr ... admission/


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:37 am 
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Snapper, the donation route is well known, GoE mentioned it at the start. The key difference is this scheme allegedly secretly enriched individuals while the public donations option (while still distasteful) is open and does fund University operations, in part freeing up funds for things like scholarship programs and massive salaries for Football Coaches.

I don’t think you will find many Colleges keen to dissuade paternally motivated big donors, most see it as a cost of doing business.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:55 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
Snapper, the donation route is well known, GoE mentioned it at the start. The key difference is this scheme allegedly secretly enriched individuals while the public donations option (while still distasteful) is open and does fund University operations, in part freeing up funds for things like scholarship programs and massive salaries for Football Coaches.

I don’t think you will find many Colleges keen to dissuade paternally motivated big donors, most see it as a cost of doing business.


I'm more familiar with Colorado's athletic program than others so this may not apply universally, but CU's athletic program is entirely self-funded so donations to the school to get a kid in wouldn't really end up paying the football coach. I'd assume most other large public universities would have similar setups. That doesn't mean I agree with college coaches making so much while the kids playing don't get a dime, of course.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:59 am 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Uthikoloshe wrote:
Image


Not sure how this makes any sense?


South African humour bro, don’t even go there....

:uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:03 am 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
Quote:
Don Trump Jr. mocks Hollywood cheating scam, invites renewed scrutiny of his own college admission
Donald Trump has a history of pledging millions to elite universities just as his children prepare for college

https://www.salon.com/2019/03/13/don-tr ... admission/


You're a bot aren't you. If not, I think I saw you on the shitAdelaide instagram. Old mate rubbing against the post. Yeah?

The main thing to come out of this is who is hotter, Lori Loughlin or her daughter. :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 am 
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goeagles wrote:
But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


This is why I think Bernie's free education for all is stupid. University should be for the top 10 or 15%, not 50 or 75%. Even if its free, whats the point of wasting 4 years to get a BA in [insert waste of time major here].


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:22 am 
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goeagles wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
Snapper, the donation route is well known, GoE mentioned it at the start. The key difference is this scheme allegedly secretly enriched individuals while the public donations option (while still distasteful) is open and does fund University operations, in part freeing up funds for things like scholarship programs and massive salaries for Football Coaches.

I don’t think you will find many Colleges keen to dissuade paternally motivated big donors, most see it as a cost of doing business.


I'm more familiar with Colorado's athletic program than others so this may not apply universally, but CU's athletic program is entirely self-funded so donations to the school to get a kid in wouldn't really end up paying the football coach. I'd assume most other large public universities would have similar setups. That doesn't mean I agree with college coaches making so much while the kids playing don't get a dime, of course.
Quite possibly, I know nothing about athletic programs. I just enjoyed the juxtaposition of overpaid sports coaches with more worthy programs. This was all prompted by NPR and one of their guests explaining why institutions are reluctant to regulate donations more strictly.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:48 am 
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Sensible Stephen wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
Quote:
Don Trump Jr. mocks Hollywood cheating scam, invites renewed scrutiny of his own college admission
Donald Trump has a history of pledging millions to elite universities just as his children prepare for college

https://www.salon.com/2019/03/13/don-tr ... admission/


You're a bot aren't you. If not, I think I saw you on the shitAdelaide instagram. Old mate rubbing against the post. Yeah?


:?

I don't really follow instagram, just like seeing Junior constantly shit the bed on Twatter...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:57 am 
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Sensible Stephen wrote:
goeagles wrote:
But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


This is why I think Bernie's free education for all is stupid. University should be for the top 10 or 15%, not 50 or 75%. Even if its free, whats the point of wasting 4 years to get a BA in [insert waste of time major here].

Why does it have to mean University only?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:00 am 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Rich privileged parents seek shortcuts and special favours for their rich privileged offspring?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


Then these rich kids and their parents turn around and whine about POC getting to these colleges via a special route.


Not really. That's more the middle and lower class.

The only reason this scandal is even a thing is because universities set lower bars to entering for people that are athletes.

Quote:
For every student admitted through fraud, an honest and genuinely talented student was rejected," Lelling said. 

Lelling said the investigation is continuing and authorities believe other parents were involved. The schools themselves are not targets of the investigation, he said.

No students were charged. Authorities said in many cases the teenagers were not aware of the fraud. 

Authorities said coaches in such sports as soccer, sailing, tennis, water polo and volleyball accepted bribes to put students on lists of recruited athletes, regardless of their ability or experience. That, in turn, boosted the students' chances of admission.


These kids didn't cut the slack but because they were considered to have magically played sports, they became acceptable. Now what other sports does that happen?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:02 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Sensible Stephen wrote:
goeagles wrote:
But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


This is why I think Bernie's free education for all is stupid. University should be for the top 10 or 15%, not 50 or 75%. Even if its free, whats the point of wasting 4 years to get a BA in [insert waste of time major here].

Why does it have to mean University only?


What difference does it make. If university is free, trades are free, tafe is free on and on, what will parents push their kids into?

Need to stop this idea that you need a piece of paper from Universities R Us to get a job as a desk jockey.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 am 
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goeagles wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
goeagles wrote:
DragonKhan wrote:
Isn't there a big problem with the way US colleges are now giving everyone really good grades compared to what they used to give despite students doing a lot less work too? Basically that a lot of it is just a scam now


I think this happens mostly at private schools. Stanford is notorious for it, but it's nothing new. When I was in college (large public university) a decade ago, professors weren't allowed to do that and if too many people got high grades they were told they either needed to make the class harder or grade on a curve.

But college is definitely scammy and especially so in the US. You learn very little that you can actually apply in the real world outside of perhaps a few disciplines. It's mostly an extremely expensive piece of paper that employers use as a filter and little else. It's been sold as the only way to be middle class in the US so a ton of people get into substantial debt to get a degree in a field they'll either never work in or have to be trained for virtually from scratch. People will say that it expands your horizons, but for $100k, and 4+ years of delayed earnings, I'm pretty sure I can find a bunch of better ways to expand my horizons.


Pretty much. I was gonna say it’s interesting that the bored yanks agree on this one but then again I’m not sure there’s anyone who attended a university in this country that doesn’t have that view. My girlfriend is from the third world and even she scoffs at the standards of our university system.

I don’t know about you guys but I’d say the vast majority of the work I did in undergrad was essentially busywork. Exams coming? Just look at the powerpoints the night before and if you’re not an idiot an A ought to be heading your way. I graduated with a 3.7 and never did shit at home except for study for exams and write papers (which were also done half-assedly the night before due). I’m not saying this because I’m smart.

FWIW I went to a no name private school, Saint Louis University, so maybe this reinforces your point. It felt the same at Mizzou and its satellite UM-St Louis during my brief time there though.

Colorado is one of the better state schools though if I’m not mistaken.

Lastly I’ll just say this is why, like you, I’m totally against free four year college. If anything there should be vastly fewer people going to universities.


CU is a tier below the top ones like Cal and Michigan, IMO. CU also has a pretty wide open admissions policy, which also probably results in more kids dropping out, but the quality of education is decent, my thoughts on undergraduate education generally notwithstanding. They get such little funding from the state that they've considered going private, which also explains the fairly wide open admissions policy along with a high out of state population. Lots of entitled rich SoCal kids who ended up dropping out. Lots of hot girls from that population though, so not all bad. :lol:

Definitely agree about free 4 year education. Intro level classes at nearly any 4 year university are unlikely to be substantially better than at a JC. At a large state university, you're going to be sitting in a 500 person lecture hall, mostly being taught by a grad student or some research focused professor who thinks teaching the class is beneath him or her but has to do it anyway. No way that's going to be a better than a 30-40 person class at a JC with a professor who might be less accomplished but is actually interested in teaching the material and is much more available for discussion and questions. And that's just 2 year vs 4 year stuff, not even the other stuff we also likely agree on such as fewer people going to universities.


Everything you guys are saying is true as far as the ease of it...if you went to college and did a mostly bullshit major. It wasn't true for mechanical engineering at North Carolina State University. My wife's cousin one time was complaining a bit too much about how hard her school was going and she was taking organic chemistry which she never really figured out (organic is notoriously a weed out class for majors that have it). I was probably a little too blunt for her but after hearing this spiel again was like "this is a real major, it's going to be hard, you're not taking some bullshit major like Communications." Ended up changing majors but she got selected to be 1 of a class of 33 for radiation therapy (think cancer) and graduates in 2 months from IUPUI. I'm happy for her.

I'm not going to ever be for free university education unless they get rid of all the bullshit majors because philosophically speaking, we shouldn't be funding kids to get educated in something for 4 years of little to no interest to society. Which no one has the balls to take on that fight against entrenched interests.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:42 am 
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Just because university is free does not mean that students will avoid certain things and just go for elite degrees, etc. If you look at countries like Denmark and other Scandinavian countries where education is free, degrees do tend to be spread around the spectrum that mostly fit the requirements of the country's economy. I would say that free education actually make students more free to choose a path to study that they would have been less inclined too if they had to pay a small fortune to do so. If after a couple of years you find that what you are studying is not what you like, it is easy to change to another direction, without having to suffer financially for stupid decisions you made as a teenager. And you cannot study forever in Denmark like Fox news want to make Americans believes, there are limits in how many times you can change a course and still study for free, or how long you can study to get your bachelors degree, or masters, etc. If you reach that limit, then you need to start paying too.
Denmark have one of the percentage of educated people with around 92% of people graduating, whether its a university degree or trade.

I am all for free education and I believe it should be every child's right to have access to higher education or else a trade education if your grades qualify you to do so, without having to be crippled by financial loans,etc. Also when you are from a low income family and are smart enough with the grades to back it up, you should not have to compete against others for the limited amount of scholarships that are available, where the majority of these kids still miss out.

I was lucky enough to received a full study bursary to go to university, if I did not get that, my parents would never have been able to afford for me to go to university. But I had friends in school that achieved very good marks, but never had the money to go and study further. The bursary I got was 1 of 5 available, and there were more than 700 applicants for it. So a host of kids missed out.

So the idea that only a small percentage of people should be allowed to go on to study is crazy, that is how you build a privileged class, repeating the cycle over and over where the majority of the population do not have access to higher education, due to lack of financing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:58 am 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
Quote:
Don Trump Jr. mocks Hollywood cheating scam, invites renewed scrutiny of his own college admission
Donald Trump has a history of pledging millions to elite universities just as his children prepare for college

https://www.salon.com/2019/03/13/don-tr ... admission/


they could not be dumber..


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:06 am 
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I'm not sure how people are surprised by this. I thought it was widely known that rich people buy admissions for their kids. How else would you explain Berkeley and Penn State students.


Also screw everyone who cheats on SATs I had to fudge my brains out for two years to prep for that shit.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 am 
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FullbackAce wrote:
I'm not sure how people are surprised by this. I thought it was widely known that rich people buy admissions for their kids. How else would you explain Berkeley and Penn State students.


Also screw everyone who cheats on SATs I had to fudge my brains out for two years to prep for that shit.


It's kind of news cause it seems like they spent a bunch of money trying to cheat their way in when they could have just donated it and got a tax break instead of breaking the law.

As much as I hate to be on the side of Don Jr, in this case it looks like Trump Sr is smarter than a bunch of Hollywood types.


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