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Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:35 pm
by 6roucho
Bill wrote:6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:6roucho wrote:Yes Bill, the current melt is far beyond those levels.
Pointless I suppose explaining to you that the Arctic has been ice free all year round before?
When?
during inter glacials - bit like the one we are in now
The Arctic hasn't been ice free all year round since the world started having ice and winters.
Edit: that was ~45m years ago when the Arctic ice cap first formed.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:54 pm
by slow wing
Arctic sea ice volume reconstruction for August is out...
It's a record low, of course. It's shocking to compare the current value (red line) with the black line from 2007. The ice volume has fallen to
less than half of what was then the record low in 2007. And 2007 was supposed to have been the really alarming year, where ice extent and area hit record lows by a large margin.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:05 am
by Bindi
Bill wrote:6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:6roucho wrote:Yes Bill, the current melt is far beyond those levels.
Pointless I suppose explaining to you that the Arctic has been ice free all year round before?
When?
during inter glacials - bit like the one we are in now
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:02 am
by Ted.
Billy boy, give yourself a slap.
Meanwhile, apropos to nothing except common sense.
Climate sceptics fail in Niwa case
TREVOR QUINN
Last updated 15:22 07/09/2012
A group of climate change sceptics has failed in its case against the National Institute for Atmospheric and Water Research (NIWA) who they brought to court over what they said was inaccurate temperature recordings.
The New Zealand Climate Education Trust - a branch of the NZ Climate Science Coalition - challenged NIWA figures, in the High Court at Auckland earlier this year, which showed a rise in temperatures in New Zealand of 1degC over the past 100 years.
The group said the temperature increase of 1degC was significantly higher than global warming figures around the world and almost 50 per cent above the global average.
In the High Court judgement, released today, Justice Geoffrey Venning ruled that the New Zealand Climate Science Education Trust had not been successful in any of the challenges they brought against NIWA.
Justice Venning also decided that NIWA's cost should be paid by the trust and he said that if an agreement on the costs could not be reached he would make another ruling at a later stage.
During the hearing in July the trust said they believed there had been no warming or a trivial warming of around 0.2degC. The trust also said that NIWA's calculating procedures were unscientific and unreliable.
In the judgement Justice Venning said he thought the court should be cautious about making judgements based on decisions made and conclusions drawn by a specialist body such as NIWA.
He said NIWA acted "within its own sphere of expertise".
Justice Venning said unless the trust could point to some defect in NIWA's decision-making process or show that the decision was clearly wrong in principle or in law the court could not intervene.
"This Court should not seek to determine or resolve scientific questions demanding the evaluation of contentious expert opinion."
The judge also said that he thought the court should be cautious about making judgements based on decisions made and conclusions drawn by a specialist body, such as NIWA.
- © Fairfax NZ News
BTW, has anyone spotted Fat Bert lately, is he ok?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:05 am
by slow wing
slow wing wrote:Arctic sea ice volume reconstruction for August is out...
It's a record low, of course. It's shocking to compare the current value (red line) with the black line from 2007. The ice volume has fallen to
less than half of what was then the record low in 2007. And 2007 was supposed to have been the really alarming year, where ice extent and area hit record lows by a large margin.
Here's the minimum yearly Arctic sea ice volume corresponding to that...
2012 could potentially go even a little bit lower, of course. We might get a bit more melt over the rest of this month.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:32 am
by Ted.
It's ok, there's no need for concern, I spotted Bert in another thread. Skulking too, he was.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:01 am
by 6roucho
slow wing wrote:
2012 could potentially go even a little bit lower, of course. We might get a bit more melt over the rest of this month.
One thing that's striking in that graph is that the decrease in volume in 2012 isn't particularly great compared to several years in the past, e.g. 2500 cubic kilometers in 2007. That would take us below the ice free threshold if it happened again, so we really are within one large melt of an ice free Arctic summer.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:26 am
by Silver
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/07/f ... more-70619
Not a hoax
Friday Funny – climate change is not a joke
Posted on September 7, 2012 by Anthony Watts
Last night at the DNC, President Obama released a climatic whopper to appease those donors that were threatening to withhold funds if he didn’t say something about climate in his speech. Prior to his speech, Joe Romm had the best line ever about the way Obama has been treating the climate issue:
Why have you and your administration been treating climate change like Voldemort — “The Threat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named.”
So, when Obama said last night ‘please send money’ :
And yes, my plan will continue to reduce the carbon pollution that is heating our planet – because climate change is not a hoax. More droughts and floods and wildfires are not a joke. They’re a threat to our children’s future. And in this election, you can do something about it.
…Josh sharpened his funny pencil:
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:41 am
by 6roucho
Wow, some brutal rhetoric there Silver. Surely that spells the end of Obama and AGW.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:45 am
by towny
6roucho wrote:Wow, some brutal rhetoric there Silver. Surely that spells the end of Obama and AGW.
If someone ever wanted to appear intelligent on PR, all they would need to do is oppose Silver on every issue on every thread.
He is seriously f**king stupid.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:48 am
by 6roucho
towny wrote:If someone ever wanted to appear intelligent on PR, all they would need to do is oppose Silver on every issue on every thread.
I admittedly have my snout in the trough.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:51 am
by towny
6roucho wrote:towny wrote:If someone ever wanted to appear intelligent on PR, all they would need to do is oppose Silver on every issue on every thread.
I admittedly have my snout in the trough.
And you are looking SMART!!!
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:32 am
by Silver
towny wrote:6roucho wrote:Wow, some brutal rhetoric there Silver. Surely that spells the end of Obama and AGW.
If someone ever wanted to appear intelligent on PR, all they would need to do is oppose Silver on every issue on every thread.
He is seriously f**king stupid.
I thought we had agreed we would ignore each others posts. Please do so because I do not want someone like you responding to my posts.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:50 am
by slow wing
Wattsup website doing the cartoons but not interested in Arctic sea ice anymore?? Just a quick mention of the 'turning point'. Strange. They used to be right into it. I'm sure they will be back though to cover the record recovery that comes naturally after losing nearly all the ice in the summer melt.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:05 am
by 6roucho
Wattsup has quiet on weather stations as well. Maybe they're pasting, I mean putting together another seminal paper.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:49 pm
by bobbity
What did happen with that paper in the end? Was it so groundbreaking that the earth swallowed it?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:59 pm
by 6roucho
It rose without trace.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:10 pm
by Bill
Anatrctic ice coverage highest EVER recorded for this time of year- since records began no less!
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:26 pm
by 6roucho
Bill, the Antarctic winter sea ice extent and the Arctic summer sea ice extent are different events, with different outcomes.
To begin with, the Arctic summer sea ice extent has a direct effect on European weather: for example it is instrumental in the shape and movement of the polar jet stream, which can lead to long periods of arctic cold or drought for Britain. Also, it plays an important role in the North Atlantic Oscillation sea current, which keeps Britain warm compared to other nations at the same latitude. These historical weather patterns could change very soon with an ice-free summer Arctic.
The Antarctic sea ice extent has none of these effects, firstly because it surrounds a continent rather than being over an open ocean, and secondly because it already melts away completely during summer. It is the relative shortage of ice in summer that is important, not a relative excess of ice in winter, since it is the albedo of the region during times of high radiation that adds energy to the system. The south pole region has a permanent ice cap - Antarctica - that isn't going anywhere soon.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:30 pm
by London Pride
Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:32 pm
by Bill
London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:35 pm
by London Pride
Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
I'll take that as a yes. Is volume in the Antarctic increasing at the same rate also?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:36 pm
by Mahoney
Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
It's almost like they are different things.
There's a drought in Africa, but that's OK because there are floods in the Indian subcontinent. The world just averages out, right? I mean, no-one's dying due to the drought in Africa because there are floods in India. And no-one's dying due to the floods in India because there's a drought in Africa. So long as the global total rainfall remains roughly the same, everyone's happy everywhere.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:38 pm
by 6roucho
London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
Also, summer and winter.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:38 pm
by Bill
London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
I'll take that as a yes. Is volume in the Antarctic increasing at the same rate also?
recent studies have shown its increasing yes - hardly surprising when satellite coverage shows massive unprecedented ice coverage, the highest since records began in fact
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:40 pm
by London Pride
Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
I'll take that as a yes. Is volume in the Antarctic increasing at the same rate also?
recent studies have shown its increasing yes - hardly surprising when satellite coverage shows massive unprecedented ice coverage, the highest since records began in fact
Notwithstanding Mahoney's post, is the volume increasing at the same rate as the increase in area?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:43 pm
by Bill
Mahoney wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
It's almost like they are different things.
There's a drought in Africa, but that's OK because there are floods in the Indian subcontinent. The world just averages out, right? I mean, no-one's dying due to the drought in Africa because there are floods in India. And no-one's dying due to the floods in India because there's a drought in Africa. So long as the global total rainfall remains roughly the same, everyone's happy everywhere.
oddly enough parts of the most arid drought prone areas of africa are actually greening - second india has always flooded always will - if they or anyone else is hoping that putting £100 green surcharges on long haul flight is going to stop them, well they will be in for a long wait
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:47 pm
by 6roucho
Bill wrote:Mahoney wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
It's almost like they are different things.
There's a drought in Africa, but that's OK because there are floods in the Indian subcontinent. The world just averages out, right? I mean, no-one's dying due to the drought in Africa because there are floods in India. And no-one's dying due to the floods in India because there's a drought in Africa. So long as the global total rainfall remains roughly the same, everyone's happy everywhere.
oddly enough parts of the most arid drought prone areas of africa are actually greening - second india has always flooded always will - if they or anyone else is hoping that putting £100 green surcharges on long haul flight is going to stop them, well they will be in for a long wait
Whoosh.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:48 pm
by Bill
London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Does Bill need to be taught the difference between volume and area again?
The one where the decrease in the Arctic is absolutely critical while the increase in the massively larger Antarctic is totally irrelevant?
I'll take that as a yes. Is volume in the Antarctic increasing at the same rate also?
recent studies have shown its increasing yes - hardly surprising when satellite coverage shows massive unprecedented ice coverage, the highest since records began in fact
Notwithstanding Mahoney's post, is the volume increasing at the same rate as the increase in area?
one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also - and sea ice coverage in the Antarctic has increased massively its at nigh on unprecedented levels and the highest ever in recorded history
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:56 pm
by 6roucho
Bill wrote:one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:57 pm
by London Pride
Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Notwithstanding Mahoney's post, is the volume increasing at the same rate as the increase in area?
one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also - and sea ice coverage in the Antarctic has increased massively its at nigh on unprecedented levels and the highest ever in recorded history
You don't know, do you? If you did, you'd show us some evidence. As it is, you're just making an assumption that is no more meritorious than assuming that volume is decreasing and area increasing.
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:00 pm
by waguser
6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Think of a melting Ice cream on the ground bill
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:07 pm
by Bill
waguser wrote:6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Think of a melting Ice cream on the ground bill
I have tried to get my head round that one before - you drop an ice cream in the Arctic and it melts/shrinks because of global warming, drop it in the Antarctic and it melts but freezes over an even bigger area again because of warming!
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:09 pm
by Bill
London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Notwithstanding Mahoney's post, is the volume increasing at the same rate as the increase in area?
one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also - and sea ice coverage in the Antarctic has increased massively its at nigh on unprecedented levels and the highest ever in recorded history
You don't know, do you? If you did, you'd show us some evidence. As it is, you're just making an assumption that is no more meritorious than assuming that volume is decreasing and area increasing.
so what you are saying is that ice coverage is increasing massively in the Antarctic because of warming and that as it gets bigger in area it somehow gets thinner like a piece of elastic?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:10 pm
by London Pride
Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Bill wrote:London Pride wrote:Notwithstanding Mahoney's post, is the volume increasing at the same rate as the increase in area?
one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also - and sea ice coverage in the Antarctic has increased massively its at nigh on unprecedented levels and the highest ever in recorded history
You don't know, do you? If you did, you'd show us some evidence. As it is, you're just making an assumption that is no more meritorious than assuming that volume is decreasing and area increasing.
so what you are saying is that ice coverage is increasing massively in the Antarctic because of warming and that as it gets bigger in area it somehow gets thinner like a piece of elastic?
No. Do you need reading lessons?
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:11 pm
by waguser
Bill wrote:waguser wrote:6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Think of a melting Ice cream on the ground bill
I have tried to get my head round that one before - you drop an ice cream in the Arctic and it melts/shrinks because of global warming, drop it in the Antarctic and it melts but freezes over an even bigger area again because of warming!
The antarctic is on land
The arctic is in the sea
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:18 pm
by Bill
waguser wrote:Bill wrote:waguser wrote:6roucho wrote:Bill wrote:one would have to assume that all things being equal as the area of sea ice increased the volume of sea ice would also
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Think of a melting Ice cream on the ground bill
I have tried to get my head round that one before - you drop an ice cream in the Arctic and it melts/shrinks because of global warming, drop it in the Antarctic and it melts but freezes over an even bigger area again because of warming!
The antarctic is on land
The arctic is in the sea
the area of ice coverage that is increasing massively in the antarctic is in the sea too
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:12 pm
by waguser
Bill wrote:waguser wrote:Bill wrote:waguser wrote:6roucho wrote:
Jeez Bill, get a basic science education.
Think of a melting Ice cream on the ground bill
I have tried to get my head round that one before - you drop an ice cream in the Arctic and it melts/shrinks because of global warming, drop it in the Antarctic and it melts but freezes over an even bigger area again because of warming!
The antarctic is on land
The arctic is in the sea
the area of ice coverage that is increasing massively in the antarctic is in the sea too
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/char ... rence.html
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:18 pm
by Bill
great - its still shows that antarctic sea ice forms in the sea though
lots of it - in winter it grows in summer it shrinks same as the arctic
Re: Arctic sea ice coverage back to 'normal' levels
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:25 pm
by 6roucho
Bill wrote:the area of ice coverage that is increasing massively in the antarctic is in the sea too
It's increasing in winter.
You're comparing summer with winter.
The summer extent is what matters for warming because the ice reflects the summer sun, lowering the albedo of the region, reducing warming of the oceans.
Even if you take the combined year round figures for both regions, the total sea ice extent is falling considerably. The winter Arctic loss is approximately 3x the Antarctic winter gain.
You know all this anyway. You're just shamelessly trolling people.