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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
tc27 wrote:
The implication that Corbyn will not use military force if someone at the UN security council veto's it means the UK effectively drops out of the Atlantic alliance and France is left as the USA's only capable European partner.

In this case how likely is it that the US will continue to think its worthwhile being part of NATO? The alliances and security guarantees that have given us the unparalleled period of peace and security in Western Europe are in danger of falling to pieces.

We are entering seriously dangerous times - I think Corbyn and his inner circle are dangerous and despicable but 40% of the country supports him.

Islington’s bedsit pseudo-Leninists seem to have convinced a large swathe of the UK that the biggest threat to world peace is Western intervention.


It's part of the problem of the anti-imperialist/anti-colonialist mindset that's taken over the left and become the entire intellectual grounding of all 'progressive' politics. It's well and good being anti-colonialist, but once it becomes a justification for non-intervention in all circumstances, it's in effect a way of excusing dictators and tyrants.

Look at the attitude of the left to China or Russia, because they're anti-Western, which means anti-colonial, they can't be all bad. Putin making efforts to draw the Baltic states back into the Russian sphere and away from Russia, can't be imperialism because the west is the source of imperialism. China's suppression of free speech and one party state can't be real tyranny because it's against western imperialist forms of government. And places like Syria, Iraq, Serbia etc, etc, can't just be brutal dictatorships suppressing their own citizens and engaging in race or religion based genocides, because they're against the Western powers.

Chomsky has a lot to answer for.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:31 pm 
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The loony left played a long game seizing institutional control of education and academia in the 70 and 80's and now its paying off. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:11 pm 
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It's almost as if being a pacifist is a cover for attacking the real enemy which are western democracies.


I also have enjoyed the Labour Party speakers totally ignoring France's role in the action as that would legitimise a coalition of three security council members and then the support from 5 eyes and EU governments for the action.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:53 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
The loony left played a long game seizing institutional control of education and academia in the 70 and 80's and now its paying off. :?



"The looney left" - welcome to 1985 folks


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:22 pm 
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People seem to have forgotten all about the faked WOMDs in Iraq.
#

There were no fake WOMD in Iraq. That's kinda the point.

A number of Govts (probably all in truth) made an intelligence assessment that proved to be wrong. The interesting point is when faced with this error, at significant political cost, they told everyone the truth rather than quietly park a few tons of anthrax somewhere remote for later discovery.

From this infertile territory, those of a tinfoil disposition have concluded the Us and UK Govt can't be trusted on WOMD.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:19 pm 
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They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.

I suspect he may be alluding to the Countries that waged an illegal war on the basis of seemingly fabricated evidence and bullshit.
Oh and devine providence and Godly intervention.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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c69 wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.

I suspect he may be alluding to the Countries that waged an illegal war on the basis of seemingly fabricated evidence and bullshit.
Oh and devine providence and Godly intervention.



Is this the war you claim didn't have parliament approval ?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:09 pm 
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c69 wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.

I suspect he may be alluding to the Countries that waged an illegal war on the basis of seemingly fabricated evidence and bullshit.
Oh and devine providence and Godly intervention.


That's quite some long list you're alluding to there


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:11 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.

I suspect he may be alluding to the Countries that waged an illegal war on the basis of seemingly fabricated evidence and bullshit.
Oh and devine providence and Godly intervention.



Is this the war you claim didn't have parliament approval ?

:lol: I should have put a smile or an irony emoji just for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:27 pm 
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So yes then.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.



Excellent spot - both sides (or is it all sides) are bullshitting, agenda driven assholes and I don't believe for a second that they are doing this to save people.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:07 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Enzedder wrote:
They cannot be trusted - full stop. They have been proven to make shit up to suit their agenda.


You're going to need to be more specific. At the moment you're describing humanity and i believe some of the other more intelligent species.


Corbyn and the momentum thugs?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:13 pm 
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crash 669 wrote:
Gospel wrote:
tc27 wrote:
The implication that Corbyn will not use military force if someone at the UN security council veto's it means the UK effectively drops out of the Atlantic alliance and France is left as the USA's only capable European partner.

In this case how likely is it that the US will continue to think its worthwhile being part of NATO? The alliances and security guarantees that have given us the unparalleled period of peace and security in Western Europe are in danger of falling to pieces.

We are entering seriously dangerous times - I think Corbyn and his inner circle are dangerous and despicable but 40% of the country supports him.

Islington’s bedsit pseudo-Leninists seem to have convinced a large swathe of the UK that the biggest threat to world peace is Western intervention.


It's part of the problem of the anti-imperialist/anti-colonialist mindset that's taken over the left and become the entire intellectual grounding of all 'progressive' politics. It's well and good being anti-colonialist, but once it becomes a justification for non-intervention in all circumstances, it's in effect a way of excusing dictators and tyrants.

Look at the attitude of the left to China or Russia, because they're anti-Western, which means anti-colonial, they can't be all bad. Putin making efforts to draw the Baltic states back into the Russian sphere and away from Russia, can't be imperialism because the west is the source of imperialism. China's suppression of free speech and one party state can't be real tyranny because it's against western imperialist forms of government. And places like Syria, Iraq, Serbia etc, etc, can't just be brutal dictatorships suppressing their own citizens and engaging in race or religion based genocides, because they're against the Western powers.

Chomsky has a lot to answer for.

Yea, but a bedsit in Islington is bloody expensive tbf.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:37 pm 
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If Corbyn was in power then Russia would have a veto over our foreign policy.

I personally feel that although he is extremely dangerous, Corbyn really had one shot at being PM at the last general election. People didn't think he had a chance of winning and felt they could vote for him as a protest. The Tories were complacent and ran the worst campaign/manifesto in history. Corbyn is being found out with Syria/Russla, the Tories will not run such a poor campaign again and the people will not see Corbyn as a protest vote and will be worried about his weakness when dealing with Russia. Whilst he will do well in the local elections. He will never be prime minister and Labour will never win a general election whilst the hard left has the reins.

P.S. Corbyn is more of a brexiteer than May will ever be.
P.P.S. Labour is a cult now, hard core corbynites will always vote for him but the floating voters won't. Therefore there won't be a labour collapse even with Corbyn. He just wont win a general election


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:02 am 
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This campaign to have another vote on Brexit could come back and bit Corbyn in the arse. He will be asked to support it if he wants to leave, he will fail to support it and will lose a lot of remain voters down the line.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:41 am 
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unseenwork wrote:
Now I do despise him given his position on Brexit, but hey ho, at least there would be some degree of craic if he were put in.

No there f**king wouldn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:43 am 
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tc27 wrote:
The implication that Corbyn will not use military force if someone at the UN security council veto's it means the UK effectively drops out of the Atlantic alliance and France is left as the USA's only capable European partner.

In this case how likely is it that the US will continue to think its worthwhile being part of NATO? The alliances and security guarantees that have given us the unparalleled period of peace and security in Western Europe are in danger of falling to pieces.

We are entering seriously dangerous times - I think Corbyn and his inner circle are dangerous and despicable but 40% of the country supports him.

Good post.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:15 am 
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Willie Falloon wrote:
This campaign to have another vote on Brexit could come back and bit Corbyn in the arse. He will be asked to support it if he wants to leave, he will fail to support it and will lose a lot of remain voters down the line.


He'll do what they have been doing for 18 months, he'll muddy his answers, appease the Labour cult masses and in private push to do the opposite just to confuse people on Labour's position and have his same masses blame the "red-Tories".


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:37 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Willie Falloon wrote:
This campaign to have another vote on Brexit could come back and bit Corbyn in the arse. He will be asked to support it if he wants to leave, he will fail to support it and will lose a lot of remain voters down the line.


He'll do what they have been doing for 18 months, he'll muddy his answers, appease the Labour cult masses and in private push to do the opposite just to confuse people on Labour's position and have his same masses blame the "red-Tories".



Corbyn is one of the original Brexit team. He regularly supported Bill Cash (he who opposed the channel tunnel). JC's views appease the 'kick 'em out brigade' whom many are Labour voters so that's fine. Coupled with the fact he can't do wrong with some then he's good to go to the next GE.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:53 am 
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Frodder wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Willie Falloon wrote:
This campaign to have another vote on Brexit could come back and bit Corbyn in the arse. He will be asked to support it if he wants to leave, he will fail to support it and will lose a lot of remain voters down the line.


He'll do what they have been doing for 18 months, he'll muddy his answers, appease the Labour cult masses and in private push to do the opposite just to confuse people on Labour's position and have his same masses blame the "red-Tories".



Corbyn is one of the original Brexit team. He regularly supported Bill Cash (he who opposed the channel tunnel). JC's views appease the 'kick 'em out brigade' whom many are Labour voters so that's fine. Coupled with the fact he can't do wrong with some then he's good to go to the next GE.



You don't think his position and that of the party might be exposed ?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:57 am 
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A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:01 am 
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Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.

My friend who lives next door thinks May is a useless twat.
He has no love for Corbyn either.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:06 am 
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Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


He is among a manic demograph. But people will vote Labour if they think it benefits them. At the end of the day even Tory voters can see homelessness has exploded, services are measurably worse, particularly the NHS, home, via rent or buying is ridiculously expensive and the Tories are in power not doing much. Remember his upswing in popularity came with the Labour manifesto and what it offered.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:09 am 
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Amongst my friends there’s been a cooling off on Corbyn, he seems to have lost momentum (I know) with normal people but the cult of Corbyn is still strong. His fans are bonkers on Facebook, any dissent from fellow labour supporters gets attacked as ‘closet Tory’ or ‘fifth columinst’


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:21 am 
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I've never had close friends really be pro-Corbyn. But plenty pro-left wing or pro-liberal in the wet pro-trans/muslim/immigration etc blanket without any nuance. But politics are still a minority of Facebook posts. It's probably less then 10 people and almost none of them are female.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


Remember his upswing in popularity came with the Labour manifesto and what it offered.



Free stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:42 am 
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zzzz wrote:
Quote:
People seem to have forgotten all about the faked WOMDs in Iraq.
#

There were no fake WOMD in Iraq. That's kinda the point.

A number of Govts (probably all in truth) made an intelligence assessment that proved to be wrong. The interesting point is when faced with this error, at significant political cost, they told everyone the truth rather than quietly park a few tons of anthrax somewhere remote for later discovery.

From this infertile territory, those of a tinfoil disposition have concluded the Us and UK Govt can't be trusted on WOMD.


That's a generous view, my understanding, from the UK perspective, is that intelligence that cast doubt on the existence of WMDs was played down or omitted where as any evidence that consolidated the hawkish position for war did not seem to be as rigorously tested. The most famous of this is the '45 minutes' claim, which was pretty weak intelligence when the Mi6/JIC first received it, yet it was allowed to make its way into the final dossier for war. We know that doubts existed at the time for the claim as various intelligence staff flagged their concerns that the intel was based on one not very good source. The lack of any context to the 45 mins claim, like the fact it alluded to battlefield weapons only or that Robin Cook concluding at the time, "It's clear from the private briefing that I have had that Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could strike at strategic cities' was largely suppressed or ignored. While the dossier was not the single document that led the case for war it was a cornerstone one that the tabloids jumped all over with their Armageddon headlines at the time, softening up the public and MPs perception in the process. Blair published the dossier with a nice little forward penned by himself, he was aware of the concerns about the 45 mins claim and the context in which it was being presented, he was being leaned on heavily by Washington who had already decided on military action to present the evidence to fit their policy. The intelligence was not 'wrong', but wilfully manipulated.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:50 am 
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Floppykid wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
Now I do despise him given his position on Brexit, but hey ho, at least there would be some degree of craic if he were put in.

No there f**king wouldn't.

Yes it's a bit rich for Corbyn to have a go at that nice Ms May just because few dusky and ageing malcontents are unhappy about losing their jobs and medical benefits, etc.

What about THE RIVERS OF BLOOD!

Murderous communist swine. :x


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:02 am 
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bimboman wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


Remember his upswing in popularity came with the Labour manifesto and what it offered.



Free stuff.



Some of it was. Plenty of it is stuff people want to see as standard services in society.

A good example is some of the Tories cutting policies are false economies, like cutting nurses bursary's which will mean fewer nurses applying for the job and the NHS has to pay more to agencies to get more foreign nurses. Which has the double cost as 10 agency staff cost twice as much, meaning the bursary basically pays for itself with a British trained nurse working for 2 years and 2) the extra cost on services more foreign workers add.

That isn't free stuff, that is good investment that will help cut the deficit in future years and have a more cost efficient NHS service where resources can go further. A similar case with investing in education.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Some of it was. Plenty of it is stuff people want to see as standard services in society.

A good example is some of the Tories cutting policies are false economies, like cutting nurses bursary's which will mean fewer nurses applying for the job and the NHS has to pay more to agencies to get more foreign nurses. Which has the double cost as 10 agency staff cost twice as much, meaning the bursary basically pays for itself with a British trained nurse working for 2 years and 2) the extra cost on services more foreign workers add.

That isn't free stuff, that is good investment that will help cut the deficit in future years and have a more cost efficient NHS service where resources can go further. A similar case with investing in education.

Didn't they cut the bursaries because they're massively oversubscribed and they could better use the money in actually providing more places?

Edit:

Quote:
In the 2015 Spending Review ministers set out plans that will mean from August 2017, all new nursing, midwifery and allied health professional students will receive their funding and financial support through student loans rather than through the NHS bursary scheme in England.

Philip Dunne, health minister, said: "Currently two thirds of people who apply to university to become a nurse are not offered a place - we are committed to plans to increase the number of training places for home-grown nurses, midwives and allied health professionals, with those in training getting around 25% more financial support while they study.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:57 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
bimboman wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


Remember his upswing in popularity came with the Labour manifesto and what it offered.



Free stuff.



Some of it was. Plenty of it is stuff people want to see as standard services in society.

A good example is some of the Tories cutting policies are false economies, like cutting nurses bursary's which will mean fewer nurses applying for the job and the NHS has to pay more to agencies to get more foreign nurses. Which has the double cost as 10 agency staff cost twice as much, meaning the bursary basically pays for itself with a British trained nurse working for 2 years and 2) the extra cost on services more foreign workers add.

That isn't free stuff, that is good investment that will help cut the deficit in future years and have a more cost efficient NHS service where resources can go further. A similar case with investing in education.



Insert any other policy which has a massive expense / return element. The issue rather with nurses is the insistence that the job is a degree level entrance. You do realise there's bundles of British nurses working via agencies as well as immigrants.its almost impossible to get immigration visas for example for care workers.

And standard services ? Like tuition for everyone with no cost ? The best modern health service provision with no cost, free transport for any particular group (insert group here). Top ups on low pay ?

These have become "standard" but in the majority of the world are nothing of the sort.


Last edited by bimboman on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:00 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
bimboman wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Santa wrote:
A friend of mine is a Labour Counciller in a London borough. Cornyn is not popular on the doorstep.


Remember his upswing in popularity came with the Labour manifesto and what it offered.



Free stuff.



Some of it was. Plenty of it is stuff people want to see as standard services in society.

A good example is some of the Tories cutting policies are false economies, like cutting nurses bursary's which will mean fewer nurses applying for the job and the NHS has to pay more to agencies to get more foreign nurses. Which has the double cost as 10 agency staff cost twice as much, meaning the bursary basically pays for itself with a British trained nurse working for 2 years and 2) the extra cost on services more foreign workers add.

That isn't free stuff, that is good investment that will help cut the deficit in future years and have a more cost efficient NHS service where resources can go further. A similar case with investing in education.



Insert any other policy which has a massive expense / return element. The issue rather with nurses is the insistence that the job is a degree level entrance. You do realise there's bundles of British nurses working via agencies as well as immigrants.its almost impossible to get immigration visas for example for care workers.



That is the problem I highlighted. Agencies cost the NHS massively.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:41 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
That is the problem I highlighted. Agencies cost the NHS massively.

And taking the money from bursaries and putting it into providing more places will mean we create more home-grown nurses and thus rely less on expensive agencies. The reduction in applicants is meaningless when two thirds of applicants can't get a place.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:48 pm 
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https://mobile.twitter.com/PolhomeEdito ... 1051608065

Stunning day in parliament from our PM in waiting.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:13 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/986219791051608065

Stunning day in parliament from our PM in waiting.

He isn't our PM in waiting. Behave


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:23 pm 
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he'll poll at 40% in the next election, I'd imagine - the difference between a hung parliament and him winning outright is how well the Tory vote holds up between now and then


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:36 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
he'll poll at 40% in the next election, I'd imagine - the difference between a hung parliament and him winning outright is how well the Tory vote holds up between now and then

Nah, he is a two faced twat.

Sooner or later he is going to blow a fuse and left himself down.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Willie Falloon wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
he'll poll at 40% in the next election, I'd imagine - the difference between a hung parliament and him winning outright is how well the Tory vote holds up between now and then

Nah, he is a two faced twat.

Sooner or later he is going to blow a fuse and left himself down.


believe me, I wish he would bugger off

but the past few weeks, with the anti-Semitism stuff, the Skripal stuff and now the Syria strikes, have shown him to basically be impervious to losing support. genuinely haven't found a single person who voted Corbyn last year and has changed their minds now - if anything, they're more dug in now than ever before

hence I see him carrying his 40% from 2017 onto the next election (no less, no more), and the final result being determined by the strength of the Tories


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