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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:06 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
Any Tory voters miss dreamy Ed Miliband?

His bro would have been prime minister. I’m still convinced labour didn’t want to win at the time with the shite economy... there’s no other explanation for it.


Ed promised the unions what they wanted, and delivered handsomely. It was all about winning control rather than an election.


Last edited by message #2527204 on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:06 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
Chips wrote:
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Mmmm, the baddies were the National SOCIALISTS really makes you think.



It's irrelevant there's a perfectly good example around the same time a bit further east.

Were they not communists rather than socialists?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:11 pm 
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bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
Chips wrote:
Image

Mmmm, the baddies were the National SOCIALISTS really makes you think.



It's irrelevant there's a perfectly good example around the same time a bit further east.

Were they not communists rather than socialists?


Hair splitting, like saying 10 mill of Stalins victims starved rather than actually being actively gassed eh and then burnt. It was still actual policy for the people to die.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:13 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
Any Tory voters miss dreamy Ed Miliband?

His bro would have been prime minister. I’m still convinced labour didn’t want to win at the time with the shite economy... there’s no other explanation for it.


Ed promised the unions what they wanted, and delivered handsomely. It was all about winning control rather than an election.


I don’t know the actual ins and outs of it, but it was deffo a case of ‘wrong brother’. It would seem their long game to control the party was a success though if that was the case.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:17 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
Any Tory voters miss dreamy Ed Miliband?

His bro would have been prime minister. I’m still convinced labour didn’t want to win at the time with the shite economy... there’s no other explanation for it.


Ed promised the unions what they wanted, and delivered handsomely. It was all about winning control rather than an election.


I don’t know the actual ins and outs of it, but it was deffo a case of ‘wrong brother’. It would seem their long game to control the party was a success though if that was the case.


Another one from momentum guru Goebbels ;)

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We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves - in the arsenal of democracy - with its own weapons. If democracy is so stupid as to give us free tickets and salaries for this bear's work, that is its affair.
We do not come as friends, nor even as neutrals. We come as enemies. As the wolf bursts into the flock, so we come


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:23 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
It's irrelevant there's a perfectly good example around the same time a bit further east.

Were they not communists rather than socialists?

Hair splitting, like saying 10 mill of Stalins victims starved rather than actually being actively gassed eh and then burnt. It was still actual policy for the people to die.

So you believe that meaning of words don't matter. How communist of you comrade.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Splitting Herrs.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:27 pm 
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bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
It's irrelevant there's a perfectly good example around the same time a bit further east.

Were they not communists rather than socialists?

Hair splitting, like saying 10 mill of Stalins victims starved rather than actually being actively gassed eh and then burnt. It was still actual policy for the people to die.

So you believe that meaning of words don't matter. How communist of you comrade.



Your instruction on what another person believes is quite communist of you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:30 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
bessantj wrote:
bimboman wrote:
It's irrelevant there's a perfectly good example around the same time a bit further east.

Were they not communists rather than socialists?

Hair splitting, like saying 10 mill of Stalins victims starved rather than actually being actively gassed eh and then burnt. It was still actual policy for the people to die.

So you believe that meaning of words don't matter. How communist of you comrade.

Your instruction on what another person believes is quite communist of you.

Too late, you've revealed your hand. You kept up the pretense for too long you must have known the mask would slip eventually. Can't say I'm pleased, communists are disagreeable people, but in Britain all are allowed to live and express their views.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Yeah, well done.












(Genuinly no idea what you mean).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Image


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 pm 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Resistance is futile

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Momentum thug leaps in with fake news.


Mine's from an official Labour poster btw :lol: Jermy embracing the internet of things as the Third race to industrial revolution


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:56 pm 
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All things considered, it is remarkable how this pleasant-seeming elderly chap manages to get so many folk so riled up. Remarkable, I say.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:56 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
Momentum thug leaps in with fake news.


Mine's from an official Labour poster btw :lol: Jermy embracing the internet of things as the Third race to industrial revolution


I’m not momentum, I’m just enjoying the thread. I don’t give two shits what happens to U.K. politics.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Plato'sCave wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Momentum thug leaps in with fake news.


Mine's from an official Labour poster btw :lol: Jermy embracing the internet of things as the Third race to industrial revolution


I’m not momentum


That's what they all say.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:59 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Momentum thug leaps in with fake news.


Mine's from an official Labour poster btw :lol: Jermy embracing the internet of things as the Third race to industrial revolution


I’m not momentum


That's what they all say.


Just admit you were wrong.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:20 am 
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message #2527204 wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Momentum thug leaps in with fake news.


Mine's from an official Labour poster btw :lol: Jermy embracing the internet of things as the Third race to industrial revolution


I’m not momentum


That's what they all say.

Really, that's odd, because they are quite vocal.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:46 am 
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I really can't recall anyone on here apart from Iirc Kagamusha supporting Corbyn.
I dont know if he supports Momentum though.
Illegitimi non carborundum Plato


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:49 am 
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c69 wrote:
I really can't recall anyone on here apart from Iirc Kagamusha supporting Corbyn.
I dont know if he supports Momentum though.
Illegitimi non carborundum Plato
You're the centrist's centrist.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:06 am 
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Interesting peice here to give some perspective for some of the reactionary right wingers on here.
From the TLS btw

Quote:
How Marxist are the Corbynistas?
RICHARD SEYMOUR
Labour’s anti-Corbyn faction is facing its second defeat in the space of a year, and many among its number are blaming it on the shade of Trotsky. Whether it is Owen Smith or John Mann complaining about a reflux of Militant, Tom Watson raising alarum about “Trotskyites”, or Dan Hodges belabouring “proto-Trotskyists . . . demanding a people’s revolution”, the spectre of Communism haunts the Party establishment. And yet beyond the hyperbole, these fears have little substance.

Momentum, a loose, ideologically heterogeneous network with a steering committee, is very removed from Militant, a tightly organized entryist group with its own branches and internal discipline. Only a handful of Momentum members have a background in revolutionary socialist politics – an unsurprisingly small proportion, given that, in the UK, the organized far Left might generously have a total of 5,000 members.

The Labour Party has always had its minor Marxist currents, from those around Henry Hyndman briefly present at Labour’s conception, to Trotskyist groupuscules such as Socialist Action which supplied some of Ken Livingstone’s advisors when he was Mayor of London. Channel 4’s Dispatches made much of the role of the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty, a group that could comfortably fit on a double-decker bus.

By and large, such clusters have tended to be organizers for the Labour Left, their formal ideology usually making little impact on their practical activity or those around them. The Marxist fringe has not always bolstered the Left. The Eurocommunist tendency organized around the Marxism Today publication had a great influence on Neil Kinnock in his battle with Militant, for example. Either way, they rarely acted as anything other than ballast for more widely-adopted tendencies.

Insofar as Marxism is a loosely formative influence among a newer layer of the activists, it manifests principally through a Gramscian register, one which, ironically, was previously associated with New Labour’s founders. When figures such as Neil Kinnock and John Reid purloined Antonio Gramsci’s ideas, it was to solve Labour’s crisis by realigning to the Right. They believed that Gramsci, with his emphasis on the consensual resources of power extending deep into civil society, licensed a strategy of ostracizing the hard Left to build broad alliances and secure the consent necessary for change. For young activist-intellectuals, it is Gramsci – the incomparable theorist of left-wing defeat and elite resiliency, and of ideological domination – that is of interest. With the bankers emerging from the economic crisis of 2008 more unassailable than ever under a Conservative government, the hard-Right strengthened and “the 99%” seemingly forgotten, this attraction is perhaps unsurprising.

The current round of Trot-hunting may therefore be simply the twenty-first-century iteration of anti-Communism. Once, all that was not virtuously free market was compressed into a singularity known as “Communism”, and vigorously rooted out. Now it is the Bogey-Scapegoat of Lev Davidovich Bronstein (that is, Trotsky): a convenient way to avoid addressing the fact that the New Labour management have lost the argument. But if Labour’s new members are not Trotskyist entryists, who are they?

Labour has more members today than it has since the late 1970s – and quite possibly well before that, since the Labour Party grossly over-stated its individual membership before 1979. Most of these new members are either party virgins, people who have never joined a political party before (58 per cent), or prodigal members, those who left during the Blair years and came back for Corbyn (31 per cent). Of the new blood, they are far more likely to have voted Green in 2015, than for any socialist party.

In terms of their values, YouGov research concludes that these new members are a bit more anti-austerity and a bit more socially liberal than the old ones. This fits in with most research into the character of radical Left parties and alliances across Europe. They tend to occupy the ideological space vacated by traditional social democracy – they are pro-welfare and public services, with an additional emphasis on social libertarianism and “post-materialist” values.

The majority of those who joined the Party didn’t then become activists, because either they were repelled by a party management that smeared them in the press, or they simply assumed that they had done their job by voting for Corbyn. Fewer than one in ten went on to join Momentum. Those who are activists tend to have gained most of their previous experience in protest movements, such as Climate Camp, the students protests, or Occupy.

This makes sense. The spontaneous ideology of young people radicalizing in the past twenty years has often been a kind of anarcho-reformism. They combined anarchist suspicion of hierarchical organizations, and the tactics of direct action, with a defence of what remained of the welfare state. Resistant to joining Labour, activists once preferred social movement milieux. The unprecedented decision to reverse this trend in large numbers, joining Labour en masse, had less to do with an abrupt shift in doctrine than with changing circumstances. Thanks to an unusual political window created by the crisis of the old regime, Corbyn was able to offer supporters a unique bargain. Labour could be their instrument for addressing their problems. It could be a party of the movements, not of the markets.

Corbyn is a Bennite, but he has been able to reach out to trade unionists, Greens, ex-Liberals, soft-Left modernizers and self-consciously “Old Labour” supporters, because he speaks on the level of experience: job precarity, soaring rents, student debt, gentrification, police brutality and democratic malaise. Twenty-first-century discontent, rather than twentieth-century theory, unites the Corbynistas.

The irony of all this is that, because most Labour MPs didn’t listen to what was really motivating the Corbynistas, or understand the extent to which they were ideologically open-ended, they didn’t have the patience to try to persuade them. Instead, bewailing the Trotskyist menace, they embarked on an impetuous coup that has both weakened them and radicalized Corbyn’s supporters. Lenin once joked about supporting Labour “as a rope supports a hanged man”. He couldn’t have imagined that Labour’s establishment would auto-asphyxiate.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:11 am 
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Chubster being a big socialist is a closet cheer leader for Comrade Corbyn.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:14 am 
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TranceNRG wrote:
Chubster being a big socialist is a closet cheer leader for Comrade Corbyn.

No. Check my posts.
Swing and miss again.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:20 am 
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Posted this earlier in the Brexit thread...

Communist Party London

Can you imagine how many threads there would be in here if the Nazi Party were holding meetings with the Tories?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:20 am 
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c69 wrote:
Interesting peice here to give some perspective for some of the reactionary right wingers on here.
From the TLS btw

Quote:
How Marxist are the Corbynistas?
RICHARD SEYMOUR
Labour’s anti-Corbyn faction is facing its second defeat in the space of a year, and many among its number are blaming it on the shade of Trotsky. Whether it is Owen Smith or John Mann complaining about a reflux of Militant, Tom Watson raising alarum about “Trotskyites”, or Dan Hodges belabouring “proto-Trotskyists . . . demanding a people’s revolution”, the spectre of Communism haunts the Party establishment. And yet beyond the hyperbole, these fears have little substance.

Momentum, a loose, ideologically heterogeneous network with a steering committee, is very removed from Militant, a tightly organized entryist group with its own branches and internal discipline. Only a handful of Momentum members have a background in revolutionary socialist politics – an unsurprisingly small proportion, given that, in the UK, the organized far Left might generously have a total of 5,000 members.

The Labour Party has always had its minor Marxist currents, from those around Henry Hyndman briefly present at Labour’s conception, to Trotskyist groupuscules such as Socialist Action which supplied some of Ken Livingstone’s advisors when he was Mayor of London. Channel 4’s Dispatches made much of the role of the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty, a group that could comfortably fit on a double-decker bus.

By and large, such clusters have tended to be organizers for the Labour Left, their formal ideology usually making little impact on their practical activity or those around them. The Marxist fringe has not always bolstered the Left. The Eurocommunist tendency organized around the Marxism Today publication had a great influence on Neil Kinnock in his battle with Militant, for example. Either way, they rarely acted as anything other than ballast for more widely-adopted tendencies.

Insofar as Marxism is a loosely formative influence among a newer layer of the activists, it manifests principally through a Gramscian register, one which, ironically, was previously associated with New Labour’s founders. When figures such as Neil Kinnock and John Reid purloined Antonio Gramsci’s ideas, it was to solve Labour’s crisis by realigning to the Right. They believed that Gramsci, with his emphasis on the consensual resources of power extending deep into civil society, licensed a strategy of ostracizing the hard Left to build broad alliances and secure the consent necessary for change. For young activist-intellectuals, it is Gramsci – the incomparable theorist of left-wing defeat and elite resiliency, and of ideological domination – that is of interest. With the bankers emerging from the economic crisis of 2008 more unassailable than ever under a Conservative government, the hard-Right strengthened and “the 99%” seemingly forgotten, this attraction is perhaps unsurprising.

The current round of Trot-hunting may therefore be simply the twenty-first-century iteration of anti-Communism. Once, all that was not virtuously free market was compressed into a singularity known as “Communism”, and vigorously rooted out. Now it is the Bogey-Scapegoat of Lev Davidovich Bronstein (that is, Trotsky): a convenient way to avoid addressing the fact that the New Labour management have lost the argument. But if Labour’s new members are not Trotskyist entryists, who are they?

Labour has more members today than it has since the late 1970s – and quite possibly well before that, since the Labour Party grossly over-stated its individual membership before 1979. Most of these new members are either party virgins, people who have never joined a political party before (58 per cent), or prodigal members, those who left during the Blair years and came back for Corbyn (31 per cent). Of the new blood, they are far more likely to have voted Green in 2015, than for any socialist party.

In terms of their values, YouGov research concludes that these new members are a bit more anti-austerity and a bit more socially liberal than the old ones. This fits in with most research into the character of radical Left parties and alliances across Europe. They tend to occupy the ideological space vacated by traditional social democracy – they are pro-welfare and public services, with an additional emphasis on social libertarianism and “post-materialist” values.

The majority of those who joined the Party didn’t then become activists, because either they were repelled by a party management that smeared them in the press, or they simply assumed that they had done their job by voting for Corbyn. Fewer than one in ten went on to join Momentum. Those who are activists tend to have gained most of their previous experience in protest movements, such as Climate Camp, the students protests, or Occupy.

This makes sense. The spontaneous ideology of young people radicalizing in the past twenty years has often been a kind of anarcho-reformism. They combined anarchist suspicion of hierarchical organizations, and the tactics of direct action, with a defence of what remained of the welfare state. Resistant to joining Labour, activists once preferred social movement milieux. The unprecedented decision to reverse this trend in large numbers, joining Labour en masse, had less to do with an abrupt shift in doctrine than with changing circumstances. Thanks to an unusual political window created by the crisis of the old regime, Corbyn was able to offer supporters a unique bargain. Labour could be their instrument for addressing their problems. It could be a party of the movements, not of the markets.

Corbyn is a Bennite, but he has been able to reach out to trade unionists, Greens, ex-Liberals, soft-Left modernizers and self-consciously “Old Labour” supporters, because he speaks on the level of experience: job precarity, soaring rents, student debt, gentrification, police brutality and democratic malaise. Twenty-first-century discontent, rather than twentieth-century theory, unites the Corbynistas.

The irony of all this is that, because most Labour MPs didn’t listen to what was really motivating the Corbynistas, or understand the extent to which they were ideologically open-ended, they didn’t have the patience to try to persuade them. Instead, bewailing the Trotskyist menace, they embarked on an impetuous coup that has both weakened them and radicalized Corbyn’s supporters. Lenin once joked about supporting Labour “as a rope supports a hanged man”. He couldn’t have imagined that Labour’s establishment would auto-asphyxiate.


I think the article is more aimed at sensible left wingers - Momentum are fluffy bunnies and more importantly, resistance is futile.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:21 am 
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There’s quite a few Corbyn supporters on here , on domestic policy Sefton sang his praises, and tune only changed the referendum , some of the other lefties are so economically illiterate that they think it’s all costed , they are the ones who moan about debt levels AND austerity, they shouldn’t. Be given any more attention than a toddler on both political and economic issues.


Last edited by bimboman on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:21 am 
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I guess it's probably time for another flirtation with leftist government, just so that we can get it out of our system for another generation or two.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:22 am 
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There is only poster who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:22 am 
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TranceNRG wrote:
Chubster being a big socialist is a closet cheer leader for Comrade Corbyn.


He really isn't. I do recall c69 writing that Corbyn should not be dismissed simply because of who he is (or something similar) a few years back. I have not noticed he is a Corbyn cheerleader


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:23 am 
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Dobbin wrote:
I guess it's probably time for another flirtation with leftist government, just so that we can get it out of our system for another generation or two.



These ain’t just lefties though, it would indeed be interesting if they try to over turn democracy


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:24 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
I guess it's probably time for another flirtation with leftist government, just so that we can get it out of our system for another generation or two.



These ain’t just lefties though, it would indeed be interesting if they try to over turn democracy

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:25 am 
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Sefton wrote:
There is only poster who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.



Don’t be shy, when he was installed you leapt
On here saying you heartedly approved.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:25 am 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Chubster being a big socialist is a closet cheer leader for Comrade Corbyn.


He really isn't. I do recall c69 writing that Corbyn should not be dismissed simply because of who he is (or something similar) a few years back. I have not noticed he is a Corbyn cheerleader


:o You're spoiling it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:27 am 
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TranceNRG wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Chubster being a big socialist is a closet cheer leader for Comrade Corbyn.


He really isn't. I do recall c69 writing that Corbyn should not be dismissed simply because of who he is (or something similar) a few years back. I have not noticed he is a Corbyn cheerleader


:o You're spoiling it.

I am a very fair poster


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:28 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
There is only poster who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.



Don’t be shy, when he was installed you leapt
On here saying you heartedly approved.

I'll repeat it again for those with comprehension issues, there is only one poster on here who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.

Given I have voted in the Labour leadership election it doesn't take a genius to work out who I haven't voted for.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:29 am 
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Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
There is only poster who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.



Don’t be shy, when he was installed you leapt
On here saying you heartedly approved.

I'll repeat it again for those with comprehension issues, there is only one poster on here who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.

Given I have voted in the Labour leadership election it doesn't take a genius to work out who I haven't voted for.


I think it's pretty obvious you voted for the Comrade in the last election.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:29 am 
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Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Dobbin wrote:
I guess it's probably time for another flirtation with leftist government, just so that we can get it out of our system for another generation or two.



These ain’t just lefties though, it would indeed be interesting if they try to over turn democracy

:lol: :lol:



Degsy back as mayor?

We will ignore the changes to the labour NEC over reach last week or the direct
Hounding out of office of labour mayors that’s already happened in 2018.

They ain’t democrats.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:34 am 
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Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
There is only poster who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.



Don’t be shy, when he was installed you leapt
On here saying you heartedly approved.

I'll repeat it again for those with comprehension issues, there is only one poster on here who voted for Corbyn in any leadership election as far as I'm aware.

Given I have voted in the Labour leadership election it doesn't take a genius to work out who I haven't voted for.


The denial of Peter...


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