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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out
In 61%  61%  [ 239 ]
Out 39%  39%  [ 156 ]
Total votes : 395
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
Gospel wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
These EU plums are really a bunch of shameless, hypocritical, corrupt and disgraceful bastards. I'd say let's get ready to walk away. EU don't control the UK like they du with Ireland. I hope May is ready to tell these plums to f off.

No chance of properly preparing for a no deal option with Hammond as Chancellor.


Or the fact that we were told a deal with the EU is the easiest deal in the world

Quote:
David Davis (again), 4 February 2016
Image


Quote:
Environment secretary Michael Gove (then justice secretary), 1 June 2016

Image


Quote:
Former Conservative and UKIP MP Douglas Carswell, 8 June 2016
Image


Quote:
Tory backbencher and former minister John Redwood, 17 July 2016
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Quote:
Brexit secretary David Davis, 14 July 2016
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Quote:
International trade secretary Liam Fox, 20 July 2017
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Oh well that's alright. We'll be okay in the end.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:27 pm 
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piquant wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Gospel wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
These EU plums are really a bunch of shameless, hypocritical, corrupt and disgraceful bastards. I'd say let's get ready to walk away. EU don't control the UK like they du with Ireland. I hope May is ready to tell these plums to f off.

No chance of properly preparing for a no deal option with Hammond as Chancellor.


If the choice is between leaving on WTO terms or staying in Customs union and Single market(shameless EU plums demand that) , May will have to choose the former (she's insisted we'll leave both).


Or she could quit as Conservative Leader, call another general election, sanction another referendum, or delay the transition and continue to negotiate a fudge - the last of these may be the most likely


Or be that woman who throws her shit around in the shop. Just as likely.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:47 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
Gospel wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
These EU plums are really a bunch of shameless, hypocritical, corrupt and disgraceful bastards. I'd say let's get ready to walk away. EU don't control the UK like they du with Ireland. I hope May is ready to tell these plums to f off.

No chance of properly preparing for a no deal option with Hammond as Chancellor.


If the choice is between leaving on WTO terms or staying in Customs union and Single market(shameless EU plums demand that) , May will have to choose the former (she's insisted we'll leave both).



Oh grow up, she's a remainer.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
The EU to end up with a better trade deal with Australia and New Zealand than the UK.

Quote:
With Theresa May insistent that leaving the EU will involve exiting the customs union and the bloc’s external commercial policy, the announcement from Brussels opens up the possibility that the EU could enjoy better terms with the two Commonwealth nations after Brexit than the UK will.

New Zealand’s trade minister, David Parker, said the UK’s withdrawal did not diminish the huge potential gains for his country that would come from breaking down trade barriers with the remaining 27 member states.

He said: “The EU is our third-largest trading partner, with two-way trade worth more than $20bn [£10.3bn]. Even excluding the UK, our trade with the EU is worth about $16bn annually.”

The international trade secretary, Liam Fox, had recently spoken of “reinvigorating” the Commonwealth partnership with a host of trade deals after Brexit, labelled “empire 2.0” by sceptical Whitehall officials.

But the UK will not be able to start its negotiations over future trade with New Zealand and Australia until 30 March 2019. The European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, has vowed to complete the EU’s talks with the two countries by 31 October of that year, when his time in office expires.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... mmonwealth



The New Zealanders are negotiating on behalf of the Aussies now it seems. Anyway this is good news as we are staying in the customs union it seems.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:32 am 
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Leinster in London wrote:
Gospel wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
These EU plums are really a bunch of shameless, hypocritical, corrupt and disgraceful bastards. I'd say let's get ready to walk away. EU don't control the UK like they du with Ireland. I hope May is ready to tell these plums to f off.

No chance of properly preparing for a no deal option with Hammond as Chancellor.


Or the fact that we were told a deal with the EU is the easiest deal in the world

Fox said "should", and he said that for a reason qualifying it with “The only reason that we wouldn’t come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics”.

Nearly all the other quotes are spot on. The German car bosses were right on to Merkel, note comments immediately after the vote, she then appealed for them to back her (i.e. stay schtum during negotiations). Gove is right that a deal can be concluded over 4 years. Any deal without FoM thrown in is a better trade deal (Carswell). Redwood is right that the UK does hold cards, but whether they're being played well by PM is another question (they aren't).

The real issue is that the majority Remainer Parliament is broadly against Brexit, as are the PM & Chancellor at heart so those in favour of Brexit in the UK are fighting Remainers domestically and in Europe. Their negotiating hands are tied by what they can get through Parliament. However, it'll all have to shake out again whether it's through a leadership election, a General Election or even a Second Referendum. Brexiteers need not fear any of this, the Brexit genie is out of the bottle and with EU plans now openly apparent the UK's future does not lie within the EU.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:54 am 
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It's funny the way all those quotes use conditionals such as can, could, would and should.....

Almost as if the idiots saying them didn't actually believe them to be feasible or indeed true.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:56 am 
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bimboman wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This was always likely to wind up in either hard Brexit or Norway. Pluses and minuses to either.

But it takes special political talent to construct laboriously a position that combines all the minuses of both.


IT certainly seems that is the design though , so we are all relieved by Norway and forget about leaving. [/b]Of course I'm crediting May with far too much nouse, the civil servants leading are creating this.

That would be a miscalculation imo. Brexiteers generally don't fear leaving, they want it quite vehemently and no-deal is more popular than transition amongst Leavers. A soft leave post-transition would be viewed as a betrayal, and the stage would be set for the next battle over full extraction. Knowing this, a lot of Brexiteer politicians are in "get it over the line" mode, prepared to swallow a lot of temporary measures just to make it happen taking the view that all bets are off post-March. The likes of Farage are already talking about breaking whatever deal is agreed, "renegotiation" Trump-style. Like you however, I think leaving could be thwarted by remainers before then (though this too would prove temporary imo subject to fierce and enduring backlash).


Last edited by Rugby2023 on Wed May 23, 2018 8:07 am, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:00 am 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This was always likely to wind up in either hard Brexit or Norway. Pluses and minuses to either.

But it takes special political talent to construct laboriously a position that combines all the minuses of both.


IT certainly seems that is the design though , so we are all relieved by Norway and forget about leaving. Of course I'm crediting May with far too much nouse, the civil servants leading are creating this.

That would be a miscalculation imo. Brexiteers generally don't fear leaving, they want it quite vehemently and no-deal is more popular than transition amongst Leavers. A soft leave post-transition would be viewed as a betrayal, and the stage would be set for the next battle over full extraction.


There was this poll a few pages back that blissfully ignored out of convenience and that was stated that only 36% of people wanted out of the CU.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:05 am 
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La soule wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This was always likely to wind up in either hard Brexit or Norway. Pluses and minuses to either.

But it takes special political talent to construct laboriously a position that combines all the minuses of both.


IT certainly seems that is the design though , so we are all relieved by Norway and forget about leaving. Of course I'm crediting May with far too much nouse, the civil servants leading are creating this.

That would be a miscalculation imo. Brexiteers generally don't fear leaving, they want it quite vehemently and no-deal is more popular than transition amongst Leavers. A soft leave post-transition would be viewed as a betrayal, and the stage would be set for the next battle over full extraction.


There was this poll a few pages back that blissfully ignored out of convenience and that was stated that only 36% of people wanted out of the CU.


was the poll binary ?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:07 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This was always likely to wind up in either hard Brexit or Norway. Pluses and minuses to either.

But it takes special political talent to construct laboriously a position that combines all the minuses of both.


IT certainly seems that is the design though , so we are all relieved by Norway and forget about leaving. Of course I'm crediting May with far too much nouse, the civil servants leading are creating this.

That would be a miscalculation imo. Brexiteers generally don't fear leaving, they want it quite vehemently and no-deal is more popular than transition amongst Leavers. A soft leave post-transition would be viewed as a betrayal, and the stage would be set for the next battle over full extraction.


There was this poll a few pages back that blissfully ignored out of convenience and that was stated that only 36% of people wanted out of the CU.


was the poll binary ?


4 different choices as far as I can remember.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:13 am 
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What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:21 am 
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bimboman wrote:
What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


Cant remember.

I know what you are trying to do here.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:23 am 
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La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


Cant remember.

I know what you are trying to do here.



:lol: , come on the poll is your premise you should be able to defend its contents and your message ...


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:27 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


Cant remember.

I know what you are trying to do here.



:lol: , come on the poll is your premise you should be able to defend its contents and your message ...


I did not post the poll, I think Rugby 2023 did. Just commented on it. I am not looking back for it :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:32 am 
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La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


Cant remember.

I know what you are trying to do here.



:lol: , come on the poll is your premise you should be able to defend its contents and your message ...


I did not post the poll, I think Rugby 2023 did. Just commented on it. I am not looking back for it :D



I didn't say the poll was posted by you, I said the "premise" regarding the poll was yours and defendable. I guess this is just anothe "la soule" post we can ignore because even the poster doesn't understand their point.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:36 am 
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c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:39 am 
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c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:40 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
What was the % saying stay in the CU ?


Cant remember.

I know what you are trying to do here.



:lol: , come on the poll is your premise you should be able to defend its contents and your message ...


I did not post the poll, I think Rugby 2023 did. Just commented on it. I am not looking back for it :D



I didn't say the poll was posted by you, I said the "premise" regarding the poll was yours and defendable. I guess this is just anothe "la soule" post we can ignore because even the poster doesn't understand their point.


Just search for it yourself you lazy git


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:45 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:11 am 
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Remember kids, as you stare in wonderment at the swathes of pink on that world wall map: the sun never sets on Little Norway.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:23 am 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Gospel wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
These EU plums are really a bunch of shameless, hypocritical, corrupt and disgraceful bastards. I'd say let's get ready to walk away. EU don't control the UK like they du with Ireland. I hope May is ready to tell these plums to f off.

No chance of properly preparing for a no deal option with Hammond as Chancellor.


Or the fact that we were told a deal with the EU is the easiest deal in the world

Fox said "should", and he said that for a reason qualifying it with “The only reason that we wouldn’t come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics”.

Nearly all the other quotes are spot on. The German car bosses were right on to Merkel, note comments immediately after the vote, she then appealed for them to back her (i.e. stay schtum during negotiations). Gove is right that a deal can be concluded over 4 years. Any deal without FoM thrown in is a better trade deal (Carswell). Redwood is right that the UK does hold cards, but whether they're being played well by PM is another question (they aren't).

The real issue is that the majority Remainer Parliament is broadly against Brexit, as are the PM & Chancellor at heart so those in favour of Brexit in the UK are fighting Remainers domestically and in Europe. Their negotiating hands are tied by what they can get through Parliament. However, it'll all have to shake out again whether it's through a leadership election, a General Election or even a Second Referendum. Brexiteers need not fear any of this, the Brexit genie is out of the bottle and with EU plans now openly apparent the UK's future does not lie within the EU.


As those politics seem to be FoM you seem to be in a chicken and egg situation.
Which comes first as a right, or should all be exactly equal ?
An EU business investor investing in UK, or an EU business investor visiting UK to invest in business, or an EU investor visiting the business he has invested in.
Similarly for the investors EU employees.

I do not see any post referendum appeals from Merkel to German car bosses or vice versa. Do you have any links ?

Gove said the timescale was to the next election. Well that one failed miserably, they didn't even get started. You are in fact saying, we have 4 more years. Welcome to Hotel California.

If any deal is better than one with FoM, why the hell are all the Brexiteers continually whingeing about the EU being plums.
Get your facts right, you either want a deal or not.

So if Redwood holds all the cards, why wasn't he considered for PM ? How exactly would he have done the negotiation ?

The real problem has always been that nobody in the UK wants the same deal as the next person, and therefore cannot decide how to move ahead. All we see are grandstanders who do not understand what they ask for, and do not care of consequences, as long as they are re-elected with a majority. Tossers like you encourage them.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:40 am 
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clementinfrance wrote:
It's funny the way all those quotes use conditionals such as can, could, would and should.....

Almost as if the idiots saying them didn't actually believe them to be feasible or indeed true.


Yup, trying to maintain plausible deniability for when it all falls apart. How long have they been at this nonsense now and there is sweet FA of anything concrete. The British politicians are still as divided as ever about what it is they want. Until they figure that out we are going around in circles


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:08 am 
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I see Boris wants a Brexit plane now.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:20 am 
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This Gove vs Hammond leak is like something directly out of Yes Prime Minister. Will you Tory lot ever stop carrying on and get down to doing the job you are handsomely paid for?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:23 am 
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La soule wrote:
I see Boris wants a Brexit plane now.

Is there a plane that looks like a huge penis?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:33 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
La soule wrote:
I see Boris wants a Brexit plane now.

Is there a plane that looks like a huge penis?


They are building the prototype for him.....

Image


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:34 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
La soule wrote:
I see Boris wants a Brexit plane now.

Is there a plane that looks like and can carry a huge prick?


Fixed :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:36 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.


The Lib Dems spent decades putting the boot into the other parties form unrealistic vantage points knowing they would almost never be in government and thus not needing realistic positions. He's also gone against Lid Dem philosophy in opposing the referendum. Lib Dems are supposed to be about more public power, not telling the public "You are all morons, we'll ignore what you say". He's a massive two faced hypocrite.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:43 am 
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La soule wrote:
I see Boris wants a Brexit plane now.

I genuinely thought that was a typo and you meant to type plan. Him, disgraced defence minister Koch sucker and David Davis are more embarrassing than Englands euro 2016 campaign.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:44 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.


The Lib Dems spent decades putting the boot into the other parties form unrealistic vantage points knowing they would almost never be in government and thus not needing realistic positions. He's also gone against Lid Dem philosophy in opposing the referendum. Lib Dems are supposed to be about more public power, not telling the public "You are all morons, we'll ignore what you say". He's a massive two faced hypocrite.


Yeah he’s lost his way- but they were the 3rd party.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:53 am 
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Clegg became a drinker.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:02 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.


The Lib Dems spent decades putting the boot into the other parties form unrealistic vantage points knowing they would almost never be in government and thus not needing realistic positions. He's also gone against Lid Dem philosophy in opposing the referendum. Lib Dems are supposed to be about more public power, not telling the public "You are all morons, we'll ignore what you say". He's a massive two faced hypocrite.


He can’t have his own views and vision as leader of a Party?

What you mean is that the Lib Dems had their first proper opportunity in decades at power. They were the opposition before that. Opposition is opposition.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
c69 wrote:
Former Cabinet Ministers Greening, Rudd and Green have broken with JRM and told him to fudge off and have the Chief Whip's ear.

The Tories are really fecked long term.


Pity the Metrocentic trendy lefty Labour sellouts are so shit


The irony of commentators having a go at Labour and the Tories being screwed is neither have enjoyed the consistently high poll ratings they both have had for the past year since the pro-Iraq Blair days. Both can win a majority with only a small swing. It's been all the other parties who are fecked. Everything else is just media narratives and the bonkers expectation management.


The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.


The Lib Dems spent decades putting the boot into the other parties form unrealistic vantage points knowing they would almost never be in government and thus not needing realistic positions. He's also gone against Lid Dem philosophy in opposing the referendum. Lib Dems are supposed to be about more public power, not telling the public "You are all morons, we'll ignore what you say". He's a massive two faced hypocrite.


He can’t have his own views and vision as leader of a Party?

What you mean is that the Lib Dems had their first proper opportunity in decades at power. They were the opposition before that. Opposition is opposition.



A proper opportunity which was rejected absolutely by the electorate last year ? That sort of opportunity ?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
The pity is that everybody was so quick to put the boot into nick clegg imo.

Nick 'EU army is a dangerous fantasy" Clegg got served by his own Sheffield constituents.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:10 pm 
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been away from this thread for a few weeks - whats the latest news in this perpetually exploding clowns car, aka Brexit?

has the NI border guards farce been discussed here yet? Apparently adverts were placed for Northern Ireland border guards, with the condition that applicants must have a British passport ..... which ruled out about half a million nationalists in NI who (under the GFA) have legally chosen to have Irish passports instead.

Adverts promptly pulled as they were discriminatory under the Belfast Agreement ..... you couldn't make this shit up if you tried :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Gospel wrote:
La soule wrote:
Gospel wrote:
bimboman wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
And the EU is going to tell May that she either stays in both the customs union and single market until a solution the Irish border is found or negotiations cease.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-eu-te ... eal-2018-5



It's an outcome that will eventually be very dangerous for the UK and eventually Europe. If negotiations cease then we still leave both though next year so it's a silly threat.

The EU were tin-eared to Cameron's pleas as they were so damn sure we'd vote to remain. They've learned nothing from that experience. Once again they are betting everything on the UK bending to their demands because the alternative is unthinkable - the UK crashing out without a deal.


There is a limit to Europe a la carte.

It cant be that hard to understand.

The EU's own guidelines talk of an imaginative and flexible approach to the Irish border but they're insisting on their way or bust. The latter will cause enormous harm to everyone. The last time they played take it or leave it with the UK we know what happened.


Have you bothered to consider that the EU couldn’t give a fudge? The only harm caused is self inflicted harm by the UK on the UK.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Looks like hmrc as well as Mark Carney are both lacking patriotism and "crying Wolf" according to the Daily Express. If we can get Boris his own plane he will be able sort it out as he did with the lady in iran, the garden bridge, the channel bridge and the floating airport.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Have you bothered to consider that the EU couldn’t give a fudge? The only harm caused is self inflicted harm by the UK on the UK.


Yeah you're right destroying the UK market is why the EU is so keen on keeping us in the customs union.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Petej wrote:
Looks like hmrc as well as Mark Carney are both lacking patriotism and "crying Wolf" according to the Daily Express. If we can get Boris his own plane he will be able sort it out as he did with the lady in iran, the garden bridge, the channel bridge and the floating airport.



Carney said something unpatriotic about Canada?


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Imagine how proud Boris would be, walking down the steps of his red, white and blue plane waving his Blue passport.

Brexit is likely to be a bit of a disaster in most areas, but at least he'd be happy and it might make up for not being PM which seemed to be his original objective?


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