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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out
In 60%  60%  [ 248 ]
Out 40%  40%  [ 167 ]
Total votes : 415
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:19 pm 
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The Out campaign has been holed below the waterline by having Farage and Galloway as the apparent leaders of their efforts. Two less trustworthy politicians it is hard to come up with.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:30 pm 
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An out rally with Boris, Farage and Galloway would be 'interesting'.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:31 pm 
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Saint wrote:
Can people please stop talking about the ECHR as if that's on the table here? The ECHR has zip to do with the EU, and whether we vote for Brexit or not we will remain subject to the ECHR unless and until we withdraw from the Council of Europe



Exactly, what on earth was Gove wittering on about regarding things he wanted to do but were legally stopped by our EU membership?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:32 pm 
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Farage is a great bloke.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:34 pm 
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Strange times - Farage, Boris, Trump, Corbyn etc all considered credible leaders by some.

Not a great advert for the leadership that has got us to the situation where the above was possible, either.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Borris has been mayor for years, pretty unremarkabley, is he considered not credible?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:40 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Strange times - Farage, Boris, Trump, Corbyn etc all considered credible leaders by some.

Not a great advert for the leadership that has got us to the situation where the above was possible, either.


:D He's got the charisma of a dead fish.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:41 pm 
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iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:42 pm 
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haunch wrote:
Borris has been mayor for years, pretty unremarkabley, is he considered not credible?


I think he's got the power to 'sway' more people on the fence than any of the other UK politicians mentioned. Farage is loathed by many and Corbyn is only supported by die hard labour fans.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:43 pm 
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unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:43 pm 
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unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


Have to agree too. Small countries are too prone to corruption and nepotism. We need outsiders to make hard decisions - the troika for example.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:46 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.

I'm Northern Irish, our politicians don't tend to be intellectual giants and I'm well used to being controlled by a government in Westminster that I have little connection to, I just prefer those on the continent.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:48 pm 
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unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:50 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.


I don't trust our politicians to make the very hard, unpopular, needed decisions unless forced by the EU.

Had Greece, Portugal and Ireland been placed under scrutiny before their respective crashes, there mightn't have been those crashes.

The EU wouldn't have allowed our banks to give 100% mortgages for example.

I'm happy where Ireland are now but those painful decisions taken by the Irish government were actually EU decisions enforced on the government. As unpopular they were at the time, they have placed the economy on a healthier footing.

Fianna Fail wouldn't in a million years made decisions like that had they not been forced to. You saw what happened that next general election, They knew they were screwed.


Last edited by iarmhiman on Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:50 pm 
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haunch wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.


it's no house of lords.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.

Gove is italic - non italic is the analysis:

Quote:
Why Michael Gove is wrong on Europe
It’s too long for a tweet, so here are some comments on Michael Gove’s statement on why he’s voting Leave. It’s full of half-truths and exaggerations and I’m amazed it’s been seen as a “flying start for leave”.


My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time


EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone, but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either. Compare the fact that both decision making bodies at EU level can be thrown out with the role of the House of Lords in the UK.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided for the most part by our politicians — only 13% of laws come from EU level. And even those that do are agreed jointly between member states. There are very few — in fact I can’t think of any — UK laws that are the result of the UK being outvoted at EU level.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.


No-one is prouder of Britain’s constitutional achievements than me, but comparing constitutional reform over three hundred years to the EU’s policies in the last decade is comparing apples and oranges. You could equally say “the EU brought the former Eastern bloc into stable democratic government and entrenched free markets and open politics when states were at risk of failure. It created the largest single market in the world, and the most powerful transnational Parliament. By contrast the UK has created and is still suffering from the consequences of an outgrown financial sector, has wasted the dividend from North Sea oil and still hasn’t made significant inroads into urban poverty”.

Moreover, the accusations Gove points at the EU are less than accurate.
EU regulation has entrenched mass unemployment a lot less than national regulation — or we would be suffering from mass unemployment too, since we’re already in the EU. It’s French, Greek and Italian labour laws that do that, not EU ones.
The Euro has exacerbated those differences and caused serious economic problems in southern Europe but they are as much the consequence of poor governance and austerity policies as they are the existence of the Euro itself.
Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque. The EU’s free movement is nothing to do with refugees, although we can be sure that the nastier sort of xenophobe will be deliberately confusing them over the next 120 days. I didn’t think Michael Gove would be doing it, though.

Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria.

These are accusing the EU of the very faults of UK isolationism. Brexit means more razor wire, the argument against the very existence of the EU (which is what Gove is making) would mean more borders not fewer. And as for Libya and Syria, perhaps the UK Government is capable of dealing with the crises, but it hasn’t shown itself to be so far.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time.The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation.
The EU is reforming all the time — it’s a totally different beast from the 1960s or 1980s, as is the UK Government. Is it a lean startup? No, but neither is the DWP. As for innovation, well ask Scientists for EU if the EU encourages innovation or not.

The regulation point is even more interesting. Standardisation, such as with GSM phones, can support markets and innovation by giving a common platform and preventing the creation of mutually incompatible standards. Most EU standards are developed with the industry rather than in a dark room populated only by those evil “unelected bureaucrats”, which means that they have wide support. Perhaps there are some businesses who are campaigning against the GSM standard, but I don’t see them.
Moreover, safety and other regulations are necessary no matter what level of government you are in. Gove gives examples later on of what he thinks of as comical regulations, but what is he seeking as an alternative? A Britain with no regulations? Well, “EU red tape” such as health and safety and emissions regulations might well prove quite popular with workers and voters. Many of the thousands of regulations he talks about are discussed and agreed at EU level because the alternative is discussing and agreeing them in slightly different ways in 28 member states.

we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before.

The EU Commission has the right to propose laws (and yes, this should be with the Parliament and Council as well) but they are only unelected in the way every bureaucrat in Whitehall is unelected, and no law passes without going through Council (elected ministers) and Parliament (elected MEPs). As for the Court — the point of judges is that they are unaccountable, or at least unelected.

As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way

Not true. Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP.

Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule?

This is part of his closing peroration to the glories of the UK and how successful we would be outside the EU. But this is where the whole argument falls down hardest. Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage. As people from Obama to Merkel to Turnbull are telling us from overseas, we are more internationalist in Europe, we are more powerful internationally as part of a strong Europe.

And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?

Gove is arguing for an optimistic and outward looking Britain, proud of its heritage and making its mark in the world. I want to see the same, but it won’t happen by leaving the EU. The tragedy of Gove is that he’s arguing for a change that would make his own vision of the future impossible.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:53 pm 
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So who exactly can vote in the referendum ?
Iirc the situation is different for this vote compared with the GE.
Anyone clarify?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.


So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?


Yes.

Agreed.


Have to agree too. Small countries are too prone to corruption and nepotism. We need outsiders to make hard decisions - the troika for example.


Corruption Index:

Quote:
1 91 Denmark
2 90 Finland
3 89 Sweden
4 88 New Zealand
5 87 Netherlands
5 87 Norway
7 86 Switzerland
8 85 Singapore
9 83 Canada
10 81 Germany


Looks to my untrained eye that Protestantism might be a closer correlation than country size.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:55 pm 
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:lol: oh yes those dirty cheating Catholics. And you were doing so well too.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:56 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really


I don't want to quote back the whole thing, but can you cite your sources and the location of the original article in this thread . . . standard etiquette and all that and I want to be able to track back on some of them. Thank.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
:lol: oh yes those dirty cheating Catholics. And you were doing so well too.


Hey, take it up with Transparency International bro. http://www.transparency.org/cpi2015

I didn't do the study.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
haunch wrote:

:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.


it's no house of lords.


Ha, if only.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really


I don't want to quote back the whole thing, but can you cite your sources and the location of the original article in this thread . . . standard etiquette and all that and I want to be able to track back on some of them. Thank.


https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-m ... .iaujuw6tr


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:08 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really


I don't want to quote back the whole thing, but can you cite your sources and the location of the original article in this thread . . . standard etiquette and all that and I want to be able to track back on some of them. Thank.


https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-m ... .iaujuw6tr


Ta.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:22 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.

Gove is italic - non italic is the analysis:

Quote:
Why Michael Gove is wrong on Europe
It’s too long for a tweet, so here are some comments on Michael Gove’s statement on why he’s voting Leave. It’s full of half-truths and exaggerations and I’m amazed it’s been seen as a “flying start for leave”.


My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time


EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone, but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either. Compare the fact that both decision making bodies at EU level can be thrown out with the role of the House of Lords in the UK.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided for the most part by our politicians — only 13% of laws come from EU level. And even those that do are agreed jointly between member states. There are very few — in fact I can’t think of any — UK laws that are the result of the UK being outvoted at EU level.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.


No-one is prouder of Britain’s constitutional achievements than me, but comparing constitutional reform over three hundred years to the EU’s policies in the last decade is comparing apples and oranges. You could equally say “the EU brought the former Eastern bloc into stable democratic government and entrenched free markets and open politics when states were at risk of failure. It created the largest single market in the world, and the most powerful transnational Parliament. By contrast the UK has created and is still suffering from the consequences of an outgrown financial sector, has wasted the dividend from North Sea oil and still hasn’t made significant inroads into urban poverty”.

Moreover, the accusations Gove points at the EU are less than accurate.
EU regulation has entrenched mass unemployment a lot less than national regulation — or we would be suffering from mass unemployment too, since we’re already in the EU. It’s French, Greek and Italian labour laws that do that, not EU ones.
The Euro has exacerbated those differences and caused serious economic problems in southern Europe but they are as much the consequence of poor governance and austerity policies as they are the existence of the Euro itself.
Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque. The EU’s free movement is nothing to do with refugees, although we can be sure that the nastier sort of xenophobe will be deliberately confusing them over the next 120 days. I didn’t think Michael Gove would be doing it, though.

Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria.

These are accusing the EU of the very faults of UK isolationism. Brexit means more razor wire, the argument against the very existence of the EU (which is what Gove is making) would mean more borders not fewer. And as for Libya and Syria, perhaps the UK Government is capable of dealing with the crises, but it hasn’t shown itself to be so far.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time.The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation.
The EU is reforming all the time — it’s a totally different beast from the 1960s or 1980s, as is the UK Government. Is it a lean startup? No, but neither is the DWP. As for innovation, well ask Scientists for EU if the EU encourages innovation or not.

The regulation point is even more interesting. Standardisation, such as with GSM phones, can support markets and innovation by giving a common platform and preventing the creation of mutually incompatible standards. Most EU standards are developed with the industry rather than in a dark room populated only by those evil “unelected bureaucrats”, which means that they have wide support. Perhaps there are some businesses who are campaigning against the GSM standard, but I don’t see them.
Moreover, safety and other regulations are necessary no matter what level of government you are in. Gove gives examples later on of what he thinks of as comical regulations, but what is he seeking as an alternative? A Britain with no regulations? Well, “EU red tape” such as health and safety and emissions regulations might well prove quite popular with workers and voters. Many of the thousands of regulations he talks about are discussed and agreed at EU level because the alternative is discussing and agreeing them in slightly different ways in 28 member states.

we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before.

The EU Commission has the right to propose laws (and yes, this should be with the Parliament and Council as well) but they are only unelected in the way every bureaucrat in Whitehall is unelected, and no law passes without going through Council (elected ministers) and Parliament (elected MEPs). As for the Court — the point of judges is that they are unaccountable, or at least unelected.

As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way

Not true. Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP.

Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule?

This is part of his closing peroration to the glories of the UK and how successful we would be outside the EU. But this is where the whole argument falls down hardest. Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage. As people from Obama to Merkel to Turnbull are telling us from overseas, we are more internationalist in Europe, we are more powerful internationally as part of a strong Europe.

And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?

Gove is arguing for an optimistic and outward looking Britain, proud of its heritage and making its mark in the world. I want to see the same, but it won’t happen by leaving the EU. The tragedy of Gove is that he’s arguing for a change that would make his own vision of the future impossible.


The EU Parliament has no real power. The laws are drafted by bureaucrats and lobbyists. Parliament can either push a button to accept or reject these laws and regulations.

And the UK would have more power outside the EU. They would then have a direct seat on international bodies rather than being represented by the EU. Who may have a position opposite to the Uk's.

We will become like a weaker Wales in the UK. Still having some power but not much. The people will have even less. As the EU is not democratic. UK politicians still want to retain the Welsh vote. The commission is appointed not elected so they will not give a toss about the 99%. They serve and will need to satisfy other masters.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:31 pm 
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Silver wrote:


The EU Parliament has no real power. The laws are drafted by bureaucrats and lobbyists. Parliament can either push a button to accept or reject these laws and regulations.

And the UK would have more power outside the EU. They would then have a direct seat on international bodies rather than being represented by the EU. Who may have a position opposite to the Uk's.

We will become like a weaker Wales in the UK. Still having some power but not much. The people will have even less. As the EU is not democratic. UK politicians still want to retain the Welsh vote. The commission is appointed not elected so they will not give a toss about the 99%. They serve and will need to satisfy other masters.[/quote]

Out of interest what "international bodies" are you talking about? I thought we had our own seat in Nato the G8, G10 and however many Gs there are.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:45 pm 
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Carrots and Peas wrote:

Out of interest what "international bodies" are you talking about? I thought we had our own seat in Nato the G8, G10 and however many Gs there are.


http://leave.eu/en/the-facts/on-global-influence

Quote:
Leaving the EU would give the UK more global influence, not less

With less than a 10% share of the vote in the EU legislatures, the UK’s ability to influence EU policy is limited. An independent UK would therefore exert greater international influence.
The UK’s overall diplomatic reach would remain strong – we would continue to be a major contributor to NATO, and would hold a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (in addition to our fundamental roles in the OECD, the G8, the G20, the P5, and the Commonwealth).
Leaving the EU would give Britain its own seat at the World Trade Organisation rather than being represented by the EU

If Europe is now at a crossroads, if we opt to stay inside the EU, it is clear that the Treaty on European Union's article 1 commitment to ‘ever closer union’ will surely leave the UK with even less influence than it currently has. Leaving the EU would give us greater influence on a global level.

The government would also be free to push for new global trade deals, and reinforce its links with the Commonwealth.

As an English speaking nation, a major economy with vast resources in research and innovation, not to mention cultural output, there is a lot the UK can gain from engaging more fundamentally with the rest of the world, and vice-versa.

We believe it would be better to exercise our own voice on a global level than be an increasingly marginalised voice within the EU.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:47 pm 
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Spoiler: show
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:53 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lt5MCdRLuY

For anybody who like's their history, Peter Hitchens on the USA, Germany, Ukraine, Britain, Russia and Syria.

Essentially the EU is a US construct and an attempt which has been developed over time (since 1870) and confirmed by the CIA that it's needed for one thing. To control and marginalise Germany and Germany alone.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:30 pm 
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So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow, and a fudge you too, to Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:31 pm 
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henry wrote:
So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.


He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:34 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.

good post, interesting responses


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:34 pm 
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iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:
So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.


He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.


Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:34 pm 
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McWilliams speaks
https://www.youtube.com/embed/cuFRiHt9SUI


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:39 pm 
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Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:
So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.


He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.


Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.


Similarly he looks a pillock if we vote to stay imo. It lops off his chances of becoming PM.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:39 pm 
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Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:
So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.


He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.


Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.

Cameron looks like a cuckold, one of his best friends and longest political allies Gove has been conspiring with Boris for the no campaign and no doubt he is strongly in the "Buffoons" camp for the Tory Party leadership


Last edited by c69 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:39 pm 
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I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:40 pm 
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RoseGarden wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:
So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.


He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.


Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.


Similarly he looks a pillock if we vote to stay imo. It lops off his chances of becoming PM.


Indeed, he's gambling on the result. He's not going to get the nomination if we stay/go and he endorses staying, however he might get the nomination if he leads the Brexit campaign and we leave.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:42 pm 
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I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:45 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.

Sam - look at the youtube video I posted earlier. A very good listen to.

Also this :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjmNWwA6V5I

You'll like also.


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