Chat Forum
It is currently Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:43 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 87037 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 2176  Next

Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out
In 60%  60%  [ 248 ]
Out 40%  40%  [ 167 ]
Total votes : 415
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 9494
Location: Sunny London
SamShark wrote:
I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.


Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.


Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.


I'm really just quoting what I've read - I dont know if he will leave.

But if he puts his "heart and soul" into staying and we end up leaving, surely there will be calls for someone who will enter the brave new world having backed the right horse?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.


Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.

It's not Labour it's just about every political commentator.
Labour is just as split tbh. Labour are an absolute irrelevance as far as this vote goes.
Boris's move is just about his future plans for power.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:53 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 11670
c69 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.


Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.

It's not Labour it's just about every political commentator.
Labour is just as split tbh. Labour are an absolute irrelevance as far as this vote goes.
Boris's move is just about his future plans for power.[/quote]
Well, yes.

If he stays he's unlikely to be PM.

If he wins though, he is Prime Minster this summer. We are out. He's a massive influence. Farage and Boris Johnson is a bizarre combo, but as a team it could be very influential.

It also underlines my other theory. This isn't just about IN or OUT, this is about you as a person. Are you a person who eventually wants to see a one nation planet, or are you a patriot.

Both have pros and cons I admit. I am the latter and I hate Socialists purely because the slimy dealings that have gone on for more than 20 years. I also think a one world state, or the 3 super power idea is very dangerous and just leads to abuse. But I expect I'll be a minority in that regard.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... split.html

Quote:
Will Europe split the Tories in 2016?
Mr Cameron has a character flaw of stoking up expectations to a preposterous and self-defeating level



What money would a bookmaker give on the Conservative Party’s still being in one piece in December 2016? Trench warfare is now well under way on the European question, and few wish to conduct it according to the Geneva Convention. Why, indeed, should they? The opposition is pathetic; the ludicrous Fixed-term Parliaments Act (which a moral government would repeal) prevents there being an election for another four and half years; and some Tories hate each other with a loathing that defies description. It may get uglier yet.
Sir Alan Duncan, a former minister believed to be sympathetic to the Leave campaign, used the season of goodwill to call for the argument not “to be dragged down to a personality-driven series of attacks” as this would not “do justice to the seriousness of the issues”. He is right. The case the Leave campaign can make is so unremittingly powerful that ad hominem abuse is unnecessary. That will not, I fear, prevent infantile unpleasantness, especially if one side panics because it perceives it is losing.


The reversal of the tide of the argument since the migrant crisis last summer has spooked some Tories. There are very few who take the John Major view that we should stay in whatever is offered. There are more who for reasons of personal ambition and residual loyalty feel the Prime Minister must be supported whatever. But the burden of feeling at Westminster is, quite clearly, that the case for staying in remains to be made, and probably will not be.
Mr Cameron has not handled this well, and I suspect he knows it. He has a character flaw of stoking up expectations to a preposterous level. Do you remember his promise, when running for leader in 2005, that he would pull the Tories out of the federalist grouping in which they sat in the European Parliament? It turned out he could not do this for four years, until the next European elections.
And do you remember how, when Gordon Brown fouled up the Treaty of Lisbon, Mr Cameron announced he would revoke it once in office? He couldn’t do that at all. Had he bothered to ask our masters in Brussels before that act of grandstanding, they would have told him he could only repeal that treaty by repealing every other one back to the Treaty of Brussels, the baleful document in which Ted Heath signed away our sovereignty in 1972.
Now he has done it again. Noting the anxiety in Britain over uncontrolled immigration from the EU, he talked boldly of a renegotiation. But it soon became clear that if there were such a renegotiation, it would not include what the British care about most – uncontrolled immigration. It wouldn’t even, it seems, include the fig leaf invented to conceal that failure, a restriction of benefits for the first four years of an immigrant’s life in Britain, because his confrères won’t let him. As Bernard Jenkin, one of the more sensible Tory MPs, has said, such demands as are left in Mr Cameron’s so-called renegotiation package are “trivial”.
The Prime Minister has two of the worst attributes of the public relations spiv, and they undermine his case badly. The first is that he believes his own publicity; the second is that he expects the rest of us to believe it, too. At Brussels 10 days ago his counterparts effectively told him to get lost. A spin operation of breathtaking dishonesty was then instituted, in which we were asked to believe he had just pulled off Agincourt, Waterloo and the 1966 football World Cup final in a single bound. The front he put up outraged his party, and the response was swift.

Two serious and hard-minded former cabinet ministers, Liam Fox and Owen Paterson, went over the parapet. Dr Fox, playing John Major at his game, said he would vote to leave and urged Mr Cameron to “end the pretence” of a renegotiation. This emperor’s clothes moment was exceptionally welcome in what had been an increasingly bizarre debate. Dr Fox also said ministers should be allowed to treat the question of our nation’s sovereignty as “a matter of conscience”, and not be forced to resign if they disagreed with a prime ministerial desire to stay in at all costs.
Mr Paterson was even more provocative. Several cabinet ministers want to wash their hands of the Cameron “renegotiation” and come out and say that Britain must leave. Mr Paterson said it would be “wholly incredible” for them not to do so. Steve Baker, a leading backbench outer, said it would be a “pantomime” if ministers continued to join in the Prime Minister’s pretence that there might be a favourable outcome to his talks.
Yet in our sister paper last week William Hague – who in 2001 fought an election campaign on the basis that there were only a limited number of days to “save the pound” as he feared our being subsumed into the euro – wrote that we must stay in because it might end the United Kingdom if we did not. He means, of course, that our Scottish cousins would seek another referendum if we voted to get out, because Scotland would rather rely on the largesse of Brussels than that of London to keep them solvent.

Confusing the issue in this way was the clearest indication yet that panic is breaking out among those who wish the collaboration with Brussels to continue. However, if the people of England were to be asked that question – would you rather remain under the undemocratic control of Brussels but keep Scotland in the family, or regain national self-determination and face the prospects of the Scots leaving? – I wonder what the answer would be. After all, Scotland has yet to establish that, even if it left the UK, it would be allowed back into the EU. Given what has happened to its oil price and its financial services sector – remember RBS and HBOS? – it might have to get in the queue behind Albania.
The odds were further raised when Mark Field, vice-chairman of the Tory party, proclaimed that ministers who opposed membership should resign. What was he thinking of, saying that? How stable does he think the government would be if, say, five or six cabinet ministers walked, and took another five or six junior ministers with them? Has he read what happened to the Liberal government when it split over Home Rule in 1886? Or how the Tories were put out of office for 17 years after the cabinet divided over free trade in 1903?
Conservat
ive MP Mark Field
Conservative MP Mark Field Photo: Rex
Perhaps Mr Field imagines he would fill one of the many ministerial vacancies: good luck to him. If he said what he did at the instigation of his master in Downing Street, then that master needs to lie down in a darkened room for a while. I fear neither Mr Field nor Mr Cameron has the slightest idea how combustible their party is at the moment.
This goes far beyond name-calling. It is about a large number of MPs who, recognising the real anger of their activists and constituents, believe it is time somebody told the truth about how rough the deal will be that Europe will present us with. The real insult is that our rulers see no harm in trifling with us over a matter of this gravity, in keeping from us the truth about the failure of the renegotiation. It can’t go on, because if it does the party will split.

From last December


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
iarmhiman wrote:
The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?


Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?


Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.

A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
c69 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?


Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.

A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.


One of the things I need to get my head around is, can you assume that those people backing "out" are doing so as it will enhance their vision of what the world should look like (as opposed to something much bigger)?

I dont feel like my view of a good UK is the one shared by Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris or indeed Galloway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
SamShark wrote:
c69 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?


Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.

A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.


One of the things I need to get my head around is, can you assume that those people backing "out" are doing so as it will enhance their vision of what the world should look like (as opposed to something much bigger)?

I dont feel like my view of a good UK is the one shared by Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris or indeed Galloway.

Neither do I.
I must say howver must I dislike Cameron he has at least shown some conviction in his actions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 483
Doc Rob wrote:
SamShark wrote:
cachao wrote:
Doesn't Corbyn also have greater support amongst the young?


It's an interesting issue.

In the Scottish independence referendum the nationalists accused the older generation of not being brave and hanging on to the status quo.

In this case it's the older generation who want "out" of something more than the young.


Quite. I'm already cringing waiting for all the people who were dead against Scottish independence from the UK arguing in favour of UK 'independence' from Brussels, whilst shamelessly using all of the same arguments
.


This has been quite remarkable to watch over the last 30 years or so. A complete and utter lack of self-awareness and understanding of irony on a national level.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 14510
Wendigo7 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lt5MCdRLuY

For anybody who like's their history, Peter Hitchens on the USA, Germany, Ukraine, Britain, Russia and Syria.

Essentially the EU is a US construct and an attempt which has been developed over time (since 1870) and confirmed by the CIA that it's needed for one thing. To control and marginalise Germany and Germany alone.

FFS :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
iarmhiman wrote:
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?


For the same reason as David Icke probably - dislike of elites with too much power.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
Quote:
Chris Gibson ✔ ‎@ChrisGibsonNews
A loyal Tory insider told me re #Boris "everyone knows he is really pro-European so what he is doing is about pure political calculation."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
ZW03 wrote:
Doc Rob wrote:
SamShark wrote:
cachao wrote:
Doesn't Corbyn also have greater support amongst the young?


It's an interesting issue.

In the Scottish independence referendum the nationalists accused the older generation of not being brave and hanging on to the status quo.

In this case it's the older generation who want "out" of something more than the young.


Quite. I'm already cringing waiting for all the people who were dead against Scottish independence from the UK arguing in favour of UK 'independence' from Brussels, whilst shamelessly using all of the same arguments
.


This has been quite remarkable to watch over the last 30 years or so. A complete and utter lack of self-awareness and understanding of irony on a national level.


Kind of similar to the Irish desperately campaigning for Scottish independence, then suggesting anyone who wants out of the EU is a little Englander.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
Chris Gibson ✔ ‎@ChrisGibsonNews
A loyal Tory insider told me re #Boris "everyone knows he is really pro-European so what he is doing is about pure political calculation."


This could still massively come back to bite him on the arse.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
SamShark wrote:
ZW03 wrote:
Doc Rob wrote:
SamShark wrote:
cachao wrote:
Doesn't Corbyn also have greater support amongst the young?


It's an interesting issue.

In the Scottish independence referendum the nationalists accused the older generation of not being brave and hanging on to the status quo.

In this case it's the older generation who want "out" of something more than the young.


Quite. I'm already cringing waiting for all the people who were dead against Scottish independence from the UK arguing in favour of UK 'independence' from Brussels, whilst shamelessly using all of the same arguments
.


This has been quite remarkable to watch over the last 30 years or so. A complete and utter lack of self-awareness and understanding of irony on a national level.


Kind of similar to the Irish desperately campaigning for Scottish independence, then suggesting anyone who wants out of the EU is a little Englander.


It just shows you though that the Irish and English disagree on almost everything. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
iarmhiman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
Chris Gibson ✔ ‎@ChrisGibsonNews
A loyal Tory insider told me re #Boris "everyone knows he is really pro-European so what he is doing is about pure political calculation."


This could still massively come back to bite him on the arse.


He gets such an easy ride from journalists as they find him amusing.

For the last few years he's been asked if he wants to be PM and he just says "gosh" a few times, makes a joke and moves on. Slightly disrespectful to effectively jack in his Mayor of London role early to suit his wider career goals.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:26 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 11670
Sam, C69 - In the case of an OUT (I'm not sure how the public will vote, the polls tbh are up and down too much to judge), how would you react?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
Quote:
It just shows you though that the Irish and English disagree on almost everything. :lol:


The Scottish Independence and EU referendum do lead to some amusing contradictions, but I dont think they are unique to any one nation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
iarmhiman wrote:
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?

I suspect, he see the EU as a Capitalist trading block, a waste of money and opposes vehemently the TTIP , with the interests of big business uttermost, and believes that the UK should be looking at an internationalist approach trading with all countrys across the globe especially the Commonwealth and emerging nations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
Wendigo7 wrote:
Sam, C69 - In the case of an OUT (I'm not sure how the public will vote, the polls tbh are up and down too much to judge), how would you react?


How could I react? I would hope for the best. Because many of the arguments for/against directly contradict each other it is of course possible that "out" could be the best option.

I think to expect this is risky though. Staying is perhaps a timid option, but this is the problem with these decisions, those selling what we have now can only warn it will get worse - those wanting change can make up what the fudge they like as future benefits.


Last edited by SamShark on Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
c69 wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?

I suspect, he see the EU as a Capitalist trading block, a waste of money and opposes vehemently the TTIP , with the interests of big business uttermost, and believes that the UK should be looking at an internationalist approach trading with all countrys across the globe especially the Commonwealth and emerging nations.


That's almost UKIP like in his outlook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 4515
c69 wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?

I suspect, he see the EU as a Capitalist trading block, a waste of money and opposes vehemently the TTIP , with the interests of big business uttermost, and believes that the UK should be looking at an internationalist approach trading with all countrys across the globe especially the Commonwealth and emerging nations.


i am quite surprised by galloway, normally socialists like big governments with lots of gravy, and i'd thought the eu's views on israel and palistine were closer to his own


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:59 pm
Posts: 568
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
Chris Gibson ✔ ‎@ChrisGibsonNews
A loyal Tory insider told me re #Boris "everyone knows he is really pro-European so what he is doing is about pure political calculation."


This could still massively come back to bite him on the arse.


He gets such an easy ride from journalists as they find him amusing.

For the last few years he's been asked if he wants to be PM and he just says "gosh" a few times, makes a joke and moves on. Slightly disrespectful to effectively jack in his Mayor of London role early to suit his wider career goals.


A serial adulterer who went to Eton and oxford with two important and extremely well paid jobs does get a really day ride from usually very fickle press. Usually they are vehemently against both. All politicians should just put on a "funny, bumbling, English buffoon" act and the press will love you for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
fisgard792 wrote:
c69 wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?

I suspect, he see the EU as a Capitalist trading block, a waste of money and opposes vehemently the TTIP , with the interests of big business uttermost, and believes that the UK should be looking at an internationalist approach trading with all countrys across the globe especially the Commonwealth and emerging nations.


i am quite surprised by galloway, normally socialists like big governments with lots of gravy, and i'd thought the eu's views on israel and palistine were closer to his own

You are surely taking the piss, many on the left see the EU as what it is a massive free trade organisation that serves big business and the TTIP may be a testament to that. Galloway's stance is wholly in kilter with that opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34072
SamShark wrote:
I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.


Worth remembering that Boris spent three years as the Telegraph's correspondent in Brussels. He probably understands the EU pretty well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.


Worth remembering that Boris spent three years as the Telegraph's correspondent in Brussels. He probably understands the EU pretty well.


I'm sure he understands it better than me no doubt, having been briefed and lobbied in all sorts of contexts, as well as the above, but I still think he's campaigning for himself which makes his views irrelevant.

Or at least should do, but he is a politician who says something and it gets printed/broadcast widely.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34072
SamShark wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.


Worth remembering that Boris spent three years as the Telegraph's correspondent in Brussels. He probably understands the EU pretty well.


I'm sure he understands it better than me no doubt, having been briefed and lobbied in all sorts of contexts, as well as the above, but I still think he's campaigning for himself which makes his views irrelevant.

Or at least should do, but he is a politician who says something and it gets printed/broadcast widely.


I can't recall his articles from the time, but apparently it was three years ridiculing the waste and undemocratic nature of the EU in humorous fashion. Quite anti-Europe, though I guess that could have been his editorial brief.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:59 pm
Posts: 568
SamShark wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:
I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.


Worth remembering that Boris spent three years as the Telegraph's correspondent in Brussels. He probably understands the EU pretty well.


I'm sure he understands it better than me no doubt, having been briefed and lobbied in all sorts of contexts, as well as the above, but I still think he's campaigning for himself which makes his views irrelevant.

Or at least should do, but he is a politician who says something and it gets printed/broadcast widely.


He wants to stay. He's campaigning for political reasons and personal ambitions so everything he says about the EU is irrelevant because he's being disingenuous. Gove, Grayling, Fox et al are the ones campaigning for reasons they genuinely believe it so people should listen to them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
And by the way:
- Cameron announces "deal"
- Cabinet meeting happens, and as agreed the people who want out can put their views forward - Gove, Grayling etc do so
- But not Boris, he stage manages it further, keeping people guessing and making his own announcement, with forthcoming press conference and Telegraph column

To me that's just saying "fudge you" to everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
There are not many politicians who are as important as Boris purely because the average joe soap immediately recognises him. You can't say that for many other politicians with the exception of Cameron, Osbourne, Farage, Corbyn for obvious reasons.

That's why Boris's vote is important.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 11670
SamShark wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
Sam, C69 - In the case of an OUT (I'm not sure how the public will vote, the polls tbh are up and down too much to judge), how would you react?


How could I react? I would hope for the best. Because many of the arguments for/against directly contradict each other it is of course possible that "out" could be the best option.

I think to expect this is risky though. Staying is perhaps a timid option, but this is the problem with these decisions, those selling what we have now can only warn it will get worse - those wanting change can make up what the f**k they like as future benefits.

Factually you're correct.

I've personally just seen too much spin from Labour for me to ever like Socialism again. Blair was the master of it and Labour left a bitter taste in my mouth. Ed Balls with the, good luck guys, we're skint comment for the Conservatives. Both sides spin so much that it's hard to say totally what will happen. For me, it is sovereignty and all about this. Will it benefit us?

I don't know but at the very least I'd like to find out. Scotland may leave, which is a shame, but could also elevate some of the burden with the Bennett's law eradicated. But I'll always vote for Country and soverignty first in any political matter.

I admit to wanting to vote UKIP, but I could never personally let Labour continue on the current path that Blair had setup so I voted for Cameron. I can imagine an awful lot of people in this country did exactly the same thing. It seems even some of Labour agree that the basic setup was a very dangerous view point. Blair longer term is the worst thing to ever happen to Labour and it's future prospects.


Last edited by Wendigo7 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 20278
Can someone please find me/promote a politician who is neither a) an Oxbridge career politician/former spad b) A populist single-issue crackpot.

As said above, Labour are pretty irrelevant in all this - a waste of space. They have nothing. This is Cameron vs Farage/Boris etc by the looks of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 483
SamShark wrote:
ZW03 wrote:
Doc Rob wrote:
SamShark wrote:
cachao wrote:
Doesn't Corbyn also have greater support amongst the young?


It's an interesting issue.

In the Scottish independence referendum the nationalists accused the older generation of not being brave and hanging on to the status quo.

In this case it's the older generation who want "out" of something more than the young.


Quite. I'm already cringing waiting for all the people who were dead against Scottish independence from the UK arguing in favour of UK 'independence' from Brussels, whilst shamelessly using all of the same arguments
.


This has been quite remarkable to watch over the last 30 years or so. A complete and utter lack of self-awareness and understanding of irony on a national level.


Kind of similar to the Irish desperately campaigning for Scottish independence, then suggesting anyone who wants out of the EU is a little Englander.


Poor comparison from a poor poster. Scotland leaving the eu would have been bad for Ireland as they would have positioned themselves to compete with us for multinationals etc. Most recognised this and it wasn't something that garnered much attention in the first place.

Brexit would be bad for ireland overall (not that it will happen anyway) so status quo would suit us yet again too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 2704
"So the EU referendum vote is going to be when me and approx 175,000 other people are at Glastonbury Festival. This is a conspiracy surely?!"



Love the tin foil hat brigade
:lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
Glaston wrote:
"So the EU referendum vote is going to be when me and approx 175,000 other people are at Glastonbury Festival. This is a conspiracy surely?!"



Love the tin foil hat brigade
:lol: :lol:


They would be mainly yes voters as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Posts: 37125
Location: For Wales the Welsh and Leinster
Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
Sam, C69 - In the case of an OUT (I'm not sure how the public will vote, the polls tbh are up and down too much to judge), how would you react?


How could I react? I would hope for the best. Because many of the arguments for/against directly contradict each other it is of course possible that "out" could be the best option.

I think to expect this is risky though. Staying is perhaps a timid option, but this is the problem with these decisions, those selling what we have now can only warn it will get worse - those wanting change can make up what the f**k they like as future benefits.

Factually you're correct.

I've personally just seen too much spin from Labour for me to ever like Socialism again. Blair was the master of it and Labour left a bitter taste in my mouth. Ed Balls with the, good luck guys, we're skint comment for the Conservatives. Both sides spin so much that it's hard to say totally what will happen. For me, it is sovereignty and all about this. Will it benefit us?

I don't know but at the very least I'd like to find out. Scotland may leave, which is a shame, but could also elevate some of the burden with the Bennett's law eradicated. But I'll always vote for Country and soverignty first in any political matter.

I admit to wanting to vote UKIP, but I could never personally let Labour continue on the current path that Blair had setup so I voted for Cameron. I can imagine an awful lot of people in this country did exactly the same thing. It seems even some of Labour agree that the basic setup was a very dangerous view point. Blair longer term is the worst thing to ever happen to Labour and it's future prospects.

Yeah Blair and Balls were Socialists.
Not much more to discuss with you if you believe that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 34582
Location: Dublin
Blair was centre-right at the very least.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 87037 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 2176  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alba, CrazyIslander, EverReady, Google Adsense [Bot], Google [Bot], Heymans, JB1981, Leinsterman, Man In Black, Mr. Very Popular, Sandstorm, sockwithaticket, Ulsters Red Hand, Wendigo7, Willie Falloon and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group