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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:49 pm
by easyray
Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:Calculus wrote:That might be due to your lack of self-awareness. Anyways, apart from the reduction in EU immigration some who voted leave would also have expected that over a year after the Brexit vote there would be a clear government position on leaving the EU and that negations would be well underway – and obviously going well for the UK. They might also expect the economy to be doing better than it is and that if Sterling depreciated there would at least be a corresponding boost to exports.
Odder still. You're now talking about people's expectations, which wasn't what was being discussed.
I beg to differ, I think peoples expectations have a lot to do with what is being discussed. If you think 350m to the NHS, having our cake and eating it, trade deals with the rest of the world and the other bullshit people believed weren't part of their expectations for Brexit, then I think you're missing some important points.
As for us remainers, we were expecting exactly what is happening to unfold. Unlike many leavers, we did not expect it immediately after the ref, but expected it never-the-less.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:49 pm
by Gospel
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Ok, it seems there are still people on here who don't think that exiting the EU is a dumb idea.
Given that it's highly unlikely that the UK will still have cake after Brexit, what exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU?
History will be the judge.
So none then?
Lets bookmark the page and revisit the tread in ten years - assuming the UK isn't some post apocalyptic dystopia.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:52 pm
by Calculus
Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
You didn't seriously search my post history just so you could win at the internet??
Now that is worth a smilie
Good man!
Yes, it took all of a few seconds because you post lots of smilies.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:54 pm
by juddy
Calculus wrote:That might be due to your lack of self-awareness. Anyways, apart from the reduction in EU immigration some who voted leave would also have expected that over a year after the Brexit vote there would be a clear government position on leaving the EU and that negations would be well underway – and obviously going well for the UK. They might also expect the economy to be doing better than it is and that if Sterling depreciated there would at least be a corresponding boost to exports.
CBI June survey shows uk order books in the best state since 1980s, with the export orders equal best for 22 years.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:03 pm
by mikerob
Further comment on the DUP-Conservative deal, £500 by The Remainers.
https://www.joe.ie/life-style/belfast-c ... les-593583
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:03 pm
by Calculus
juddy wrote:Calculus wrote:That might be due to your lack of self-awareness. Anyways, apart from the reduction in EU immigration some who voted leave would also have expected that over a year after the Brexit vote there would be a clear government position on leaving the EU and that negations would be well underway – and obviously going well for the UK. They might also expect the economy to be doing better than it is and that if Sterling depreciated there would at least be a corresponding boost to exports.
CBI June survey shows uk order books in the best state since 1980s, with the export orders equal best for 22 years.
Not much of a boost considering the fall in the currency
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britai ... KKBN19O1PT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... eaker-pou/
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:03 pm
by Rinkals
Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Ok, it seems there are still people on here who don't think that exiting the EU is a dumb idea.
Given that it's highly unlikely that the UK will still have cake after Brexit, what exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU?
History will be the judge.
So none then?
Lets bookmark the page and revisit the tread in ten years - assuming the UK isn't some post apocalyptic dystopia.
Jesus.
A lot can happen in ten years. The knock-on effect of the Brexit might induce other nations to split and we could see the collapse of the European Union as a direct result of Britain's withdrawal.
But that's not what I'm asking.
I think we can be fairly certain that there is going to be a lot of pain and hardship both for the UK and for the European Union and the extent and severity of that pain to either party is difficult to gauge.
However, the British people (or at least 37.5% of them) must have had a reason to inflict that pain, surely? or was it all xenophobia and jingoism?
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:07 pm
by juddy
Calculus wrote:juddy wrote:Calculus wrote:That might be due to your lack of self-awareness. Anyways, apart from the reduction in EU immigration some who voted leave would also have expected that over a year after the Brexit vote there would be a clear government position on leaving the EU and that negations would be well underway – and obviously going well for the UK. They might also expect the economy to be doing better than it is and that if Sterling depreciated there would at least be a corresponding boost to exports.
CBI June survey shows uk order books in the best state since 1980s, with the export orders equal best for 22 years.
Not much of a boost considering the fall in the currency
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britai ... KKBN19O1PT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... eaker-pou/
The UK Markit report is less bullish than the CBI one. We'll see who is nearer the mark.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:10 pm
by camroc1
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:10 pm
by Gospel
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Ok, it seems there are still people on here who don't think that exiting the EU is a dumb idea.
Given that it's highly unlikely that the UK will still have cake after Brexit, what exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU?
History will be the judge.
So none then?
Lets bookmark the page and revisit the tread in ten years - assuming the UK isn't some post apocalyptic dystopia.
Jesus.
A lot can happen in ten years. The knock-on effect of the Brexit might induce other nations to split and we could see the collapse of the European Union as a direct result of Britain's withdrawal.
But that's not what I'm asking.
I think we can be fairly certain that there is going to be a lot of pain and hardship both for the UK and for the European Union and the extent and severity of that pain to either party is difficult to gauge.
However, the British people (or at least 37.5% of them) must have had a reason to inflict that pain, surely? or was it all xenophobia and jingoism?
It will be expensive and the UK will remain something of laughing stock which should help the EU to feel better about itself though I think we'll muddle through despite all that and make the necessary adjustments but feel free to say I told you so if you find me living in a cardboard box under Marlow bridge.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:31 pm
by OhNo
derriz wrote:juddy wrote:Haggis,
You are just rehashing the arguments of the ref campaign. i don't intend to revisit the pros and cons of Brexit, a subject that's been done to death. I I made the point that nothing particularly significant has happened to vindicate the anti Brexit position or undermine the pro Brexit position, which is what you were suggesting.
Here's a challenge - type "Brexit" into Google news and see if you can find a SINGLE piece of positive news for the UK among the stories listed. You will find bad news on everything from infighting in the cabinet, political instability, steep declines in investment, rising inflation, falling real wages, jobs leaving London, bad PMI and GDP growth numbers, etc. All of these trends are significant.
To believe that nothing has happened to vindicate the anti-Brexit position requires that either you've completely shut yourself off from what is actually happening in the work - i.e. the complete ignorance ploy - or to believe that everyone from Bloomberg to the Telegraph are part of a global media conspiracy. Before the referendum last year, most things were ticking along very nicely for the UK.
And this news is reflected in the falling support for Brexit in the polls and in the growing realization, even among many of the most prominent eaters and havers of cake, that brexit will be difficult and damaging with no upside in sight. Even the bexit campaign leader (behind "take control" and "350m/week for the NHS") is now saying leaving the EU is a bad idea. Even Dominic Cummins wasn't able to continue to ignore reality.
Easy, even easier if you use despite brexit.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:58 pm
by bimboman
but feel free to say I told you so if you find me living in a cardboard box under Marlow bridge.
Nice place to be homeless though.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:25 pm
by MrJonno
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Ok, it seems there are still people on here who don't think that exiting the EU is a dumb idea.
Given that it's highly unlikely that the UK will still have cake after Brexit, what exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU?
History will be the judge.
So none then?
Lets bookmark the page and revisit the tread in ten years - assuming the UK isn't some post apocalyptic dystopia.
Jesus.
A lot can happen in ten years. The knock-on effect of the Brexit might induce other nations to split and we could see the collapse of the European Union as a direct result of Britain's withdrawal.
But that's not what I'm asking.
I think we can be fairly certain that there is going to be a lot of pain and hardship both for the UK and for the European Union and the extent and severity of that pain to either party is difficult to gauge.
However, the British people (or at least 37.5% of them) must have had a reason to inflict that pain, surely? or was it all xenophobia and jingoism?
Sneaky b@stard knows that in 10 years the UK won't have Internet.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:30 pm
by SamShark
Screw you remoaner - we will have internet (dial-up)
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:35 pm
by Santa
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Ok, it seems there are still people on here who don't think that exiting the EU is a dumb idea.
Given that it's highly unlikely that the UK will still have cake after Brexit, what exactly are the benefits of leaving the EU?
History will be the judge.
So none then?
Lets bookmark the page and revisit the tread in ten years - assuming the UK isn't some post apocalyptic dystopia.
Jesus.
A lot can happen in ten years. The knock-on effect of the Brexit might induce other nations to split and we could see the collapse of the European Union as a direct result of Britain's withdrawal.
But that's not what I'm asking.
I think we can be fairly certain that there is going to be a lot of pain and hardship both for the UK and for the European Union and the extent and severity of that pain to either party is difficult to gauge.
However, the British people (or at least 37.5% of them) must have had a reason to inflict that pain, surely? or was it all xenophobia and jingoism?
Thanks Rinkals. Your options now are to say exactly the same thing you've said in every single other post you've made on this thread and/or topic or to farck off. Which will it be?
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:39 pm
by camroc1
Well he's not been wrong to date, has he ? Unlike most Brexiteers .
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:43 pm
by bimboman
camroc1 wrote:Well he's not been wrong to date, has he ? Unlike most Brexiteers .
He predicted not too much would happen ? Wow well played rinkals.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:46 pm
by Rinkals
bimboman wrote:camroc1 wrote:Well he's not been wrong to date, has he ? Unlike most Brexiteers .
He predicted not too much would happen ? Wow well played rinkals.
I'm fairly certain that I have.
I take it from your sarcastic post that you are suggesting that I have predicted that there would be dire consequences and that these would have manifested themselves by now? In which case I would expect you to quote some of my posts to back this up.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:50 pm
by Chuckles1188
Cummings lives entirely inside his own arsehole. I thought his recent tweets on Brexit were absolutely hilarious - he's dissociating so hard I half wonder if he'll punch himself in the face for having sex with his wife
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:14 pm
by bimboman
Rinkals wrote:bimboman wrote:camroc1 wrote:Well he's not been wrong to date, has he ? Unlike most Brexiteers .
He predicted not too much would happen ? Wow well played rinkals.
I'm fairly certain that I have.
I take it from your sarcastic post that you are suggesting that I have predicted that there would be dire consequences and that these would have manifested themselves by now? In which case I would expect you to quote some of my posts to back this up.
Ask Cammy, he's the one who said you'd not been wrong to date. He's been to the future it seems.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:49 am
by La soule
Santa wrote:
Thanks Rinkals. Your options now are to say exactly the same thing you've said in every single other post you've made on this thread and/or topic or to farck off. Which will it be?
Third option would be to tell you to farck off.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:09 am
by jorwar
Rafael Behr hits on Mother's Brexit and Donald's fantasy world:
"The EU referendum and US presidential election were huge events of enduring global consequence, but both have now lost some of their epic quality. Brexit and Trumpism: neither now seems like giant moments for geopolitics.
There is no longer the hope that Trump’s tyrannical-toddler temperament masks some more sophisticated analysis. The truth is out: there is no credible plan to make America great again.
Buried too are the Brexit promises – not just extra money for the NHS, but the myth of a sovereign renaissance. The leavers’ tone, once so expansive, has shrivelled, now pinched and defensive. Eurosceptics still chant that Brexit must be done, come what may, but now they struggle to make it sound an exciting act of destiny. Brexit is shrinking. The options are fewer, the horizon is narrowing. And the prime minister will feel it in Hamburg, where she will be welcomed as the leader of a great country that has chosen to make itself smaller. And so the west is doubly diminished."
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:31 am
by easyray
jorwar wrote:Rafael Behr hits on Mother's Brexit and Donald's fantasy world:
"The EU referendum and US presidential election were huge events of enduring global consequence, but both have now lost some of their epic quality. Brexit and Trumpism: neither now seems like giant moments for geopolitics.
There is no longer the hope that bubblefart’s tyrannical-toddler temperament masks some more sophisticated analysis. The truth is out: there is no credible plan to make America great again.
Buried too are the Brexit promises – not just extra money for the NHS, but the myth of a sovereign renaissance. The leavers’ tone, once so expansive, has shrivelled, now pinched and defensive. Eurosceptics still chant that Brexit must be done, come what may, but now they struggle to make it sound an exciting act of destiny. Brexit is shrinking. The options are fewer, the horizon is narrowing. And the prime minister will feel it in Hamburg, where she will be welcomed as the leader of a great country that has chosen to make itself smaller. And so the west is doubly diminished."
The bold bit is so very true. Like many on here I suspect, I have friends and acquaintances world wide, and not a single one of them understands why the UK chose to exit. They all (without exception) think the UK will be both a poorer place and will lose a lot of its influence on the global stage because of this. They could be wrong, but I doubt it very much.
I've given up trying to explain the reasoning (or lack of it), of why the UK took that decision, as to me, there was no justifiable reason.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:44 pm
by Rocketz
Great for EU heavy industries
EU and Japan agree on free trade agreement.
http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-and-j ... agreement/
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:11 pm
by camroc1
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:19 pm
by SamShark
I don't think they are listening.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:31 pm
by Gospel
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:48 pm
by Rinkals
Gospel wrote:
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful wit kant?
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:52 pm
by SamShark
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?
I guess it's like in South Africa where everyone is racist.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:55 pm
by Gospel
Rinkals wrote:Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
They'd be mad to as the UK will be much better off with a strong and successful trading partner
Rinkals wrote:Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
See above.
Rinkals wrote:Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?
See above.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:03 pm
by camroc1
Gospel wrote:
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
Bassett has been peddling this line in the Irish press for the last year to much mockery from all. The fact that he's been reduced to publishing them in a British Tory think tank tells you all you need to know about how seriously he is taken in Ireland.
After the British press got hold of this, the Taoiseach reiterated that Ireland had no intention of following the UK into the wilderness, and the head of the Irish Diplomatic Corps helpfully pointed out that Bassett had had no hand act or part in either Ire/UK, or Ire/EU relations during his diplomatic career.
He's basically an anglophile crack pot.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:28 pm
by croyals
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?
There's a section of British society that has always had an antipathy to European projects. This is no different.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:32 pm
by paddyor
Gospel wrote:
You fellas might have to consider an Irexit at this rate and form a North Atlantic trading block with the UK and USA...
The funniest part of that is where he argues ministers in Ireland should have resigned in the wake of the Brexit referendum.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:35 pm
by tc27
A good primer on the customs union and options related to it post Brexit:
Read this and you are better informed than most MPs and journalists.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... toms-union
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:45 pm
by Rinkals
Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
They'd be mad to as the UK will be much better off with a strong and successful trading partner
Rinkals wrote:Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
See above.
Rinkals wrote:Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?
See above.
Exactly!
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:05 pm
by SamShark
I have minimal knowledge of all that stuff, but I read that and wonder how anyone would think that we're "taking back control"
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:34 pm
by Gospel
Rinkals wrote:Gospel wrote:Rinkals wrote:Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.
They'd be mad to as the UK will be much better off with a strong and successful trading partner
Rinkals wrote:Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?
See above.
Rinkals wrote:Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?
See above.
Exactly!
Your triggered response seemed to ignore the fact that the paper was written by a Former Irish Ambassador and Senior Irish Civil Servant. No one is calling for the EU to fail.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:41 pm
by Gospel
SamShark wrote:
I have minimal knowledge of all that stuff, but I read that and wonder how anyone would think that we're "taking back control"
Leaving the customs union allows the UK to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:52 pm
by Lenny
Gospel wrote:SamShark wrote:
I have minimal knowledge of all that stuff, but I read that and wonder how anyone would think that we're "taking back control"
Leaving the customs union allows the UK to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world.
The problem is that in the majority of the important ones (US, EU, China, India etc.) you'll be very much the junior partner, with far less economic clout, and the danger is that those bespoke deals will favour the other party more than you. This idea that all other countries will come cap in hand, begging you to export your goods to them without a very significan quid pro quo, is stunningly naive. There is also the issue of how long it takes to negotiate those deals, especially in the absence of any qualified or experienced trade negotiators.
Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:52 pm
by easyray
Gospel wrote:SamShark wrote:
I have minimal knowledge of all that stuff, but I read that and wonder how anyone would think that we're "taking back control"
Leaving the customs union allows the UK to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world.
Unfortunately it will be from the back of the que.